Embedded Files
Ha Vu havu90 at gmail.com
Wed Apr 20 07:24:43 PDT 2016
Dear all,
Upon returning to Vietnam this year, I have noticed the increasing presence
of gym culture and emphasis on fitness training among Vietnamese in urban
areas, particularly in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh city. I find this trend
particularly fascinating, and was wondering if anyone on the list happens
to know any academic work on fitness culture in Vietnam. It would also be
helpful to learn more about this topic from a historical perspective, i.e.
how did the conceptualization of "fitness" evolve through recent decades in
Vietnam. Any lead appreciated - thank you!
Milkie Vu
PhD student in Behavioral Sciences & Health Education
Emory University
Hawk, Alan J CIV DHA RESEARCH-DEV (US) alan.j.hawk.civ at mail.mil
Wed Apr 20 07:45:51 PDT 2016
Another question is if this has any relation to the item I sent earlier regarding Vietnam purchase of weapons.
One of the impetus for physical fitness in the United States was the concern that our youth were 'out of shape' during the early years of the cold war. There were similar campaigns after the First World War (after finding that one out of three draftees were not physically able to serve) and again in the run up to the Second World Wars. The Gymnastics movement in 18th century Germany were also partially inspired by the concern that Germany needed to protect itself from foreign invasion.
V/r
Alan Hawk
Collections Manager, Historical Collections
National Museum of Health and Medicine
Defense Health Agency
2460 Linden La.
Silver Spring, MD 20910
NMHM on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/MedicalMuseum
NMHM on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MedicalMuseum
Phone: (301) 319-3361, DSN 319-3361
Fax: (301) 319-3373, DSN 319-3373
<mailto: alan.j.hawk.civ at mail.mil
Dan Duffy vietnamlit at gmail.com
Wed Apr 20 08:34:47 PDT 2016
Hi Milkie,
I made a quick trip through Ha Noi a few years ago, as soon as I managed to
get it together to travel after a friend sent a note to my mother through a
cut-out in Paris around the turn of the century to let me know that the
coast was clear after ten years as persona non grata.
I asked a martial artist from the old days of the 90s to recommend a
barbell gym near my hotel in the old quarter. Instead he or she arrived on
a motorcycle and took me on a tour around to find a place to work out.
Our discourses of fitness, masculinity and strength accumulate in durable
equipment, very easy to read. What I read in the local Vietnamese clubs was
focus on hypertrophy over strength and power, specifically dumb-bells and
isolation racks to the exclusion of bars and plates and squat racks.
One place had one of those daffy Asian mash-up posters, with a cartoon of a
body builder and a legend about the Olympics, where they they don't contest
any bodybuilding.
In the international zone of the hotels with health clubs I found what we
are accustomed to in most gyms and university facilities in the US,
machines for burning calories and more abundant consumer-shiny versions of
the isolation machines the impoverished local clubs offer.
It was just barely possible to train for strength with deadlift only, no
squat or press. Unwise to train for power and speed with the Olympic clean
and jerk.
I ended up doing handstand pushups with my friend the karateka on his
balcony.
The impoverished state of incremental training for fitness I witnessed,
both straight poverty in the local clubs and skinny-fat nonsense in the
hotels, puzzles me since the 19C discourse of musculation must surely be
present at least in all the cities of Viet Nam.
Moreover, the national team is indeed very powerful and strong. If I visit
again I will try to get an introduction to where they train.
So that is what I saw in I think 2012. I may have posted a field note here
as I traveled.
I am reading through this literature but have not run across anything about
Indochine or VN. I will be very happy to learn what you may find.
Cheers,
Dan
Shawn McHale mchale at gwu.edu
Wed Apr 20 10:36:50 PDT 2016
Milkie,
Intriguing question about "fitness culture." Two observations/ questions,
from very different times.
1. In the 1930s, there was clearly a developing interest in healthy bodies
in general among the Saigon westernized elite. This was evidenced in
numerous ways: hygiene manuals, sex manuals (including discussing of
healthy sex practices), as well as in modern sports like tennis and boxing.
(One prominent southern boxer, Sáu Cường, fought the famous Cuban boxer
"Kid Chocolate" in the 1930s -- I think I saw advertisements about this in
Phụ nữ tân văn . . . ) . I assume that this interest in fitness had
French, local, and Asian influences, but that is just a guess. One
intriguing issue would be to chart the impact of eugenics in the 1920s and
1930s on notions of "fitness."
2. I am completely unable to comment on male muscle culture in Vietnam --
from kung fu to gay body sculpting. But what I do find intriguing is the
rise in Saigon from 2007 or so in "yoga" and reducing "stress." Any
comments? Is this heavily western, or mixed in clientele? Heavily female?
Shawn McHale
Dutton, George dutton at humnet.ucla.edu
Wed Apr 20 10:56:41 PDT 2016
As Shawn points out, the physical fitness/sports phenomenon was quite widespread in Saigon in the 1930s, but also very much the case in Hanoi. While Vu Trung Phung’s So Do (Dumb Luck) is fictional, it captures the essence of the fitness craze with respect especially to tennis and bicycle racing. Newspaper advertisements from the 1920s and 1930s also prominently featured sports equipment, like bicycles, and even toys for children to make them more fit (see below). There were also regular reports on sporting events, including women playing tennis, and accounts of soccer matches. Even earlier, the Dong Kinh Nghia Thuc had a physical education program in its brief existence in 1907, with the idea being that physically strong citizens were important to protect the country from the Darwinian threats to its existence.
George Dutton
UCLA
Oscar Salemink o.salemink at anthro.ku.dk
Wed Apr 20 11:25:40 PDT 2016
Anne Raffin’s Youth Mobilization in Vichy Indochina and Its Legacies, 1940 to 1970 (Lexington Books, 2005) has some relevant references to youth movements and physical education in colonial and postcolonial Indochina, as does Eric Jennings’ Vichy in the Tropics: Petain's National Revolution in Madagascar, Guadeloupe, and Indochina, 1940-1944 (Stanford UP, 2001).
Oscar Salemink
Professor in the Anthropology of Asia
Hiep Duc Hiep.Duc at environment.nsw.gov.au
Wed Apr 20 22:09:50 PDT 2016
Dear all,
FYI, My short introduction on sport in Saigon during the earlier 20th century: tennis and the story of Chim and Giao, can be found here.
https://hiepblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/21/lich-su-the-thao-saigon-va-nam-ky-1910-1945-quan-vot/
Other sports such as football (soccer) and the story of Étoile de Giadinh, Cycling and famous coureurs of 1930-1940, Boxing and foreign boxers in colonial Vietnam, Racing and the story of Montpexat will be in the book to be published by Nxb van hoa-Van Nghe in July 2016.
Cheers
Dr Hiep Duc Nguyen
Atmospheric Scientist
Office of Environment & Heritage, NSW
Ha Vu havu90 at gmail.com
Wed Apr 20 23:58:50 PDT 2016
Dear all,
Thanks so much for the very lively discussion. Ann-Marie, thanks for the
wonderful article - how interesting it is to be able to capture this sort
of longitudinal data on transformations at a club over the course of a
decade!
Some points of consideration as I read through the thread:
1. From conversations with friends (and pictures posted on Instagram),
understanding of how the body should look like is changing, particularly
with young adults. "Slim" is no longer the equivalent of being healthy; but
rather "in shape" or "toned." I don't have much to go from besides
anecdotal evidence, but muscle building seems to be emphasized for both men
and women. I don't remember growing up in Vietnam a decade ago and seeing
women ever doing weightlifting as a form of exercise; these days my
Instagram feeds are flooded with young female friends weightlifting, and
others "liking" their photos. Very fascinating in light of our discussion
on embodiment and gender.
2. Thanks for the historical perspective - seems like the healthy body -
healthy minds connection have been made ever since colonial era to present
days.
I was browsing the website of a popular high-end gym chain:
http://www.cfyc.com.vn/en/success-stories, and many qualities such as will,
determination, confidence, you-can-do-it attitude were brought up as end
products that come with an active and "in shape" body. The message appears
to be not so much intertwined with political agenda; they concern more the
idea of a cosmopolitan individual.
3. Another point from anecdotal evidence about knowledge creation and
knowledge flows. I was browsing the website of another popular gym,
http://swequity.vn/gioi-thieu/, and saw that the mission is to disseminate
scientifically correct approaches to working out among Vietnamese. The
claim seems to be that just working out or going to the gym is insufficient
for being "fit"; to be truly "fit" you have to also acquire proper
knowledge about working out and about the body.
Milkie Vu
PhD student in Behavioral Sciences & Health Education
Rollins School of Public Health at Emory University
Dien Nguyen nguyendien519 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 05:20:50 PDT 2016
In the 1950s in Saigon, the book on body building “Bắp thịt trước đã” by Phạm
Văn Tươi was very popular. I've found mention about this book in the
following blogs.
Nguyễn Điền
Independent Researcher
Canberra
Trang nhà của Bác sĩ Đỗ Hồng Ngọc » Blog Archive Càng ...
<http://www.dohongngoc.com/web/huom-huom/gia-oi-chao-ban/cang-gia-cang-deo/>
www.dohongngoc.com/web/.../cang-gia-cang-deo/
<https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#>
May 7, 2009 - Nửa thế kỷ trước, lứa chúng tôi nhiều người mê cuốn “Bắp thịt
trước đã”
của Phạm Văn Tươi, hướng dẫn tập thể hình để được như… Lý Đức
1.
TẬP THỂ DỤC ĐÚNG | Tran Ba Thoai's Blog
<https://tranbathoaimdphd.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/t%E1%BA%ADp-th%E1%BB%83-d%E1%BB%A5c-dung/>
https://tranbathoaimdphd.wordpress.com/.../tập-thể-dụ...
<https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#>
1. May 19, 2010 - Nhiều sách hướng dẫn thể dục kinh điển xưa nay, ví dụ
cuốn Bắp thịt trước đã của Phạm Văn Tươi khá thân thuộc với độc giả Việt
Nam
2.
Oliver Tappe otappe at uni-koeln.de
Thu Apr 21 05:29:36 PDT 2016
A very good book on the history of sport in neighbouring Laos:
Creak, Simon 2015: Embodied Nation - Sport, Masculinity, and the Making
of Modern Laos. Honolulu: University of Hawaiʻi Press.
Some chapters relate to the literature mentioned below by Oscar.
Best,
Oliver Tappe
Dan Duffy vietnamlit at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 08:57:41 PDT 2016
Awesome bibliography. Thanks all.
Two points.
#1
Don't forget that the DRVN and SRVN were in the Soviet bloc. The USSR
conducted mass recruitment and training for strength competition.
At their schools they developed theory which is kind of Ptolemaic, cycles
within cycles, very interpretive, but based on huge data. The take-aways
have proven useful in other countries with much smaller numbers of athletes
training.
I would be surprised if that knowledge has just vanished from the SRVN. The
weights the national team cleans and jerks suggest that it has not.
#2
Any kind of incremental training demands an increase in eating.
I only saw evidence of boy-building in my quick tour and that this seems to
be what the rest of you are talking about, I bring this up because body
building demands drastically more intake than strength training.
You need more carbohydrates for the far greater numbers of repetitions. You
need more fats and proteins to build the larger structures.
There are some serious bodybuilders in Viet Nam whom you may find on the
web. But in general I haven't seen a lot of bulk and definition going on,
as I have not seen evidence of strength training outside the national team
So I suggest that the whole business is chasing after illusions. The
literature on this is, well, literature.
Among my exact contemporaries Ho Anh Thai in Ha Noi and Linh Dinh out here
address this topic. As others have noted it goes all the way down into the
past of modern literature among Vietnamese.
Cheers,
Dan
Leanna Noble leannan7 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 09:18:05 PDT 2016
A healthy body leads to a healthy mind. A healthy body and mind leads to
freedom.
Anh Le huyanhsyle at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 18:09:45 PDT 2016
Dear list (and Milkie),
This has been a fascinating discussion. I have a suggestion that for
comparative perspective, you can check out a few historical studies of
sport and nationalism in Republican and Maoist China. Mao himself was a
fervent advocate of physical education in his years. A blog I follow called
"Everyday Life in Mao's China" just posted these quite vivid pictures that
may pertain to your interest:
I am also glad that Mr. Duffy mentioned eating in the equation. I went to
check out a gym near Hồ Hoàn Kiếm last summer and the gym owner's immediate
advertising point to me was how I needed a combination of diet and proper
workout to be healthy whilst insisting that he was doctor-certified to give
me advices (the assumption was that not many people were). I also notice
that there is this boom in healthy foodstores in Hanoi (maybe somewhat
similar to Wholefood here in the US?) where people come to buy relative
more expensive stuff on the premise that these are Western-imported,
organic, healthy food. I don't doubt it if gym-goers and people who engage
with diet frequent these stores. It seems to me that there is an
interesting intersection of fitness and (rising) diet culture that connect
to new understandings of nutrition sciences. It would be an interesting
topic to further explore.
All best,
Anh Sy Huy Le
Department of History
Michigan State University
Janet Alison Hoskins jhoskins at usc.edu
Wed Apr 20 08:26:17 PDT 2016
Dear Milkie (and everyone else)
Anne-Marie Leshkowich, winner of the 2016 Benda Prize for her book Essential Trade: Vietnamese Women in a Changing Marketplace, has published an excellent article on this subject, based on research in Ho Chi Minh City:
2008 “Working Out Culture: Gender, Body, and Commodification in a Ho Chi Minh City Health Club” in Urban Anthropology and Studies of Cultural Systems and World Economic Development 37(1): 49-87.
Best,
Janet
Janet Alison Hoskins
Professor of Anthropology and Religion
University of Southern California
https://dornsife.usc.edu/dr-janet-hoskins
https://dornsife.usc.edu/assets/sites/329/docs/Hoskins-DivineEye_no-form_flyer.pdf
Thaveeporn Vasavakul Thaveeporn at mail.kvsinter.com
Wed Apr 20 12:35:06 PDT 2016
My responses based on my personal experiences:
(1) I have been around in Vietnam since 1987 (extensively since 1997 ). I have observed that the Vietnamese are VERY committed to do outdoors exercises for physical fitness, especially between 5.30 AM to 7 AM and after 6 PM. If these are indicators of a “gym culture”, it means that the culture has been alive and well in the doi moi era.
(2) Regarding fitting training, I remember signing up for membership at the Daewoo hotel (to do yoga) when it was opened. The Daewoo Hotel facility also offered "scientific" fitness training. That could be around 2003-4 (?). Later, all fancy hotels had gyms. The Vietnamization of the indoors “gym culture” came a bit later, probably around 2008 – I purchased packages from a few Viet-run gyms as they were less expensive (their yoga classes were not good.)
(3) I am curious why you say you find the trend “fascinating”. Maybe it would be helpful to consult the article by Tran Quoc Vuong on the Vietnamese traditional concept of physical fitness published in VIETNAMESE STUDIES?
Good luck with your research.
Thaveeporn Vasavakul, Ph.D
GoSFI - Governance Support Facility Initiatives
Hiep Duc Hiep.Duc at environment.nsw.gov.au
Wed Apr 20 22:09:50 PDT 2016
Dear all,
FYI, My short introduction on sport in Saigon during the earlier 20th century: tennis and the story of Chim and Giao, can be found here.
https://hiepblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/21/lich-su-the-thao-saigon-va-nam-ky-1910-1945-quan-vot/
Other sports such as football (soccer) and the story of Étoile de Giadinh, Cycling and famous coureurs of 1930-1940, Boxing and foreign boxers in colonial Vietnam, Racing and the story of Montpexat will be in the book to be published by Nxb van hoa-Van Nghe in July 2016.
Cheers
Dr Hiep Duc Nguyen
Atmospheric Scientist
Office of Environment & Heritage, NSW
From: Vsg [mailto:vsg-bounces at mailman11.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Oscar Salemink
Sent: Thursday, 21 April 2016 4:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [Non-DoD Source] Fitness culture in Vietnam
Anne Raffin’s Youth Mobilization in Vichy Indochina and Its Legacies, 1940 to 1970 (Lexington Books, 2005) has some relevant references to youth movements and physical education in colonial and postcolonial Indochina, as does Eric Jennings’ Vichy in the Tropics: Petain's National Revolution in Madagascar, Guadeloupe, and Indochina, 1940-1944 (Stanford UP, 2001).
Oscar Salemink
Professor in the Anthropology of Asia
Department of Anthropology
Faculty of Social Sciences
University of Copenhagen
Øster Farimagsgade 5
1353 København K.
Denmark
Office: CSS - Bygning 16, Opgang i, room 16.0.24
TLF +45-35 32 44 72
FAX +45-35 32 35 65
E-mail: o.salemink at anthro.ku.dk<mailto:o.salemink at anthro.ku.dk>
Personal webpage at the Department of Anthropology<http://anthropology.ku.dk/staff/beskrivelse/?id=403491>
Personal webpage at the Asian Dynamics Initiative<http://asiandynamics.ku.dk/english/people/vip_staff/os/>
Adjunct Professor at the Institute for Religion, Politics and Society (ACU Melbourne) <https://irps.acu.edu.au/people/professor-oscar-salemink/>
Project Leader of the Sapere Aude project ”Global Europe: Constituting Europe from the outside in through artefacts”<http://globaleurope.ku.dk/>
Project Leader of the HERA-funded project “HERILIGION: The heritagization of religion and the sacralization of heritage in contemporary Europe”<Project%20Leader%20of%20the%20HERA-funded%20project%20“HERILIGION:%20The%20heritagization%20of%20religion%20and%20the%20sacralization%20of%20heritage%20in%20contemporary%20Europe”>
Personal webpage at Academia.edu<https://ku-dk.academia.edu/OscarSalemink>
Personal webpage at Researchgate.net<https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oscar_Salemink/contributions>
Ha Vu havu90 at gmail.com
Wed Apr 20 23:58:50 PDT 2016
Dear all,
Thanks so much for the very lively discussion. Ann-Marie, thanks for the
wonderful article - how interesting it is to be able to capture this sort
of longitudinal data on transformations at a club over the course of a
decade!
Some points of consideration as I read through the thread:
1. From conversations with friends (and pictures posted on Instagram),
understanding of how the body should look like is changing, particularly
with young adults. "Slim" is no longer the equivalent of being healthy; but
rather "in shape" or "toned." I don't have much to go from besides
anecdotal evidence, but muscle building seems to be emphasized for both men
and women. I don't remember growing up in Vietnam a decade ago and seeing
women ever doing weightlifting as a form of exercise; these days my
Instagram feeds are flooded with young female friends weightlifting, and
others "liking" their photos. Very fascinating in light of our discussion
on embodiment and gender.
2. Thanks for the historical perspective - seems like the healthy body -
healthy minds connection have been made ever since colonial era to present
days.
I was browsing the website of a popular high-end gym chain:
http://www.cfyc.com.vn/en/success-stories, and many qualities such as will,
determination, confidence, you-can-do-it attitude were brought up as end
products that come with an active and "in shape" body. The message appears
to be not so much intertwined with political agenda; they concern more the
idea of a cosmopolitan individual.
3. Another point from anecdotal evidence about knowledge creation and
knowledge flows. I was browsing the website of another popular gym,
http://swequity.vn/gioi-thieu/, and saw that the mission is to disseminate
scientifically correct approaches to working out among Vietnamese. The
claim seems to be that just working out or going to the gym is insufficient
for being "fit"; to be truly "fit" you have to also acquire proper
knowledge about working out and about the body.
Milkie Vu
PhD student in Behavioral Sciences & Health Education
Rollins School of Public Health at Emory University
Dien Nguyen nguyendien519 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 05:20:50 PDT 2016
In the 1950s in Saigon, the book on body building “Bắp thịt trước đã” by Phạm
Văn Tươi was very popular. I've found mention about this book in the
following blogs.
Nguyễn Điền
Independent Researcher
Canberra
Trang nhà của Bác sĩ Đỗ Hồng Ngọc » Blog Archive Càng ...
<http://www.dohongngoc.com/web/huom-huom/gia-oi-chao-ban/cang-gia-cang-deo/>
www.dohongngoc.com/web/.../cang-gia-cang-deo/
<https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#>
May 7, 2009 - Nửa thế kỷ trước, lứa chúng tôi nhiều người mê cuốn “Bắp thịt
trước đã”
của Phạm Văn Tươi, hướng dẫn tập thể hình để được như… Lý Đức
1.
TẬP THỂ DỤC ĐÚNG | Tran Ba Thoai's Blog
<https://tranbathoaimdphd.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/t%E1%BA%ADp-th%E1%BB%83-d%E1%BB%A5c-dung/>
https://tranbathoaimdphd.wordpress.com/.../tập-thể-dụ...
<https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#>
1. May 19, 2010 - Nhiều sách hướng dẫn thể dục kinh điển xưa nay, ví dụ
cuốn Bắp thịt trước đã của Phạm Văn Tươi khá thân thuộc với độc giả Việt
Nam
2.
Oliver Tappe otappe at uni-koeln.de
Thu Apr 21 05:29:36 PDT 2016
A very good book on the history of sport in neighbouring Laos:
Creak, Simon 2015: Embodied Nation - Sport, Masculinity, and the Making
of Modern Laos. Honolulu: University of Hawaiʻi Press.
Some chapters relate to the literature mentioned below by Oscar.
Best,
Oliver Tappe
Dan Duffy vietnamlit at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 08:57:41 PDT 2016
Awesome bibliography. Thanks all.
Two points.
#1
Don't forget that the DRVN and SRVN were in the Soviet bloc. The USSR
conducted mass recruitment and training for strength competition.
At their schools they developed theory which is kind of Ptolemaic, cycles
within cycles, very interpretive, but based on huge data. The take-aways
have proven useful in other countries with much smaller numbers of athletes
training.
I would be surprised if that knowledge has just vanished from the SRVN. The
weights the national team cleans and jerks suggest that it has not.
#2
Any kind of incremental training demands an increase in eating.
I only saw evidence of boy-building in my quick tour and that this seems to
be what the rest of you are talking about, I bring this up because body
building demands drastically more intake than strength training.
You need more carbohydrates for the far greater numbers of repetitions. You
need more fats and proteins to build the larger structures.
There are some serious bodybuilders in Viet Nam whom you may find on the
web. But in general I haven't seen a lot of bulk and definition going on,
as I have not seen evidence of strength training outside the national team
So I suggest that the whole business is chasing after illusions. The
literature on this is, well, literature.
Among my exact contemporaries Ho Anh Thai in Ha Noi and Linh Dinh out here
address this topic. As others have noted it goes all the way down into the
past of modern literature among Vietnamese.
Cheers,
Dan
Leanna Noble leannan7 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 09:18:05 PDT 2016
A healthy body leads to a healthy mind. A healthy body and mind leads to
freedom.
Anh Le huyanhsyle at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 18:09:45 PDT 2016
Dear list (and Milkie),
This has been a fascinating discussion. I have a suggestion that for
comparative perspective, you can check out a few historical studies of
sport and nationalism in Republican and Maoist China. Mao himself was a
fervent advocate of physical education in his years. A blog I follow called
"Everyday Life in Mao's China" just posted these quite vivid pictures that
may pertain to your interest:
I am also glad that Mr. Duffy mentioned eating in the equation. I went to
check out a gym near Hồ Hoàn Kiếm last summer and the gym owner's immediate
advertising point to me was how I needed a combination of diet and proper
workout to be healthy whilst insisting that he was doctor-certified to give
me advices (the assumption was that not many people were). I also notice
that there is this boom in healthy foodstores in Hanoi (maybe somewhat
similar to Wholefood here in the US?) where people come to buy relative
more expensive stuff on the premise that these are Western-imported,
organic, healthy food. I don't doubt it if gym-goers and people who engage
with diet frequent these stores. It seems to me that there is an
interesting intersection of fitness and (rising) diet culture that connect
to new understandings of nutrition sciences. It would be an interesting
topic to further explore.
All best,
Anh Sy Huy Le
Department of History
Michigan State University
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