Names for Saigon
From: John Phan
Date: Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 10:57 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear list,
I am looking for a source on nicknames or alternative names for Saigon, especially during the 19th century. In particular, has anyone come across the use of "Nam Thành" as an epithet for Saigon?
Many thanks,
John
--
John D. Phan
Ph.D. Candidate
East Asian Linguistics & Literature
Cornell University
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From: Le Thanh
Date: Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:15 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
ordinary people from Mekong Delta used to call it simply THE CITY (like di thành ph? - go to the city, or dân thành ph? - people from the city). They are right because Saigon was the only city, while the capital towns of the provinces were always Châu Thành (the urban district). As a result we have a number of district with that name (Châu Thành) in Mekong Delta. For me personally Saigon is only the area of the 1st & 3rd districts now, as people from the 4th district or Tân Bình or Phú Nhu?n or Bình Th?nh, Hóc Môn, C? Chi v.v. identified themselves with that name. A neighbour living in Tân Bình district told me he is from ... Gia Ð?nh, hi hi.
Best
Hai
Le Thanh Hai, PhD, researcher, Institute of Philosophy and Sociology, Polish Academy of Science
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:40 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I am not sure whether the following names correspond exactly to modern Saigon
(which would exclude Dakao, Tan Dinh which now form part of District 1): Ben Nghe, Phien An, Phien Tran, Tan Binh, Gia Dinh. In the 20th century, Gia Dinh referred to a suburb rather than either Saigon proper or the South as a whole.
I have not seen references to Nam Thanh, but have not done a real search; they would seek equivalence with Bac Thanh, I assume. The above list evidently does not include pre-Vietnamese names.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
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From: Hiep Duc
Date: Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 6:41 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Phu?ng B?n Nghé is now a part of district 1 and Tân Bình is a district of Saigon. Ben Nghe and Tan Bình were ancient names of Saigon in the past (Saigon river was once called Tan Binh River).
As Prof. Hue Tam said, Gia Dinh referred to the whole South in the 18th and early 19th century. Gia Ð?nh Thành (or Phiên An tr?n or called Nam Thành in Gia Long period) as the whole South was described in detailed by Trinh Hoai Duc in “Gia Ð?nh thành thông chí”. After suppressing the Le Van Khoi rebellion, Emperor Minh Mang abolished Gia D?nh Thành and formed the six provinces. Gia Dinh became one of the six provinces with Saigon as its capital city. T?nh Gia Ð?nh (Gia Dinh Province) existed until after the French conquest in 1861. It then became an arrondissement (a suburb) of Saigon, similar to Cho Lon arrondissement. Later, because of the economic importance of Cho Lon, the French made Cho Lon as a separate city and a capital of Cho Lon province. Under South Vietnam government (before 1975), Gia Dinh again became a province. At present day, the only existing official name of Gia Dinh is Phu?ng Gia Ð?nh of Tan Binh district. Old people in Binh Thanh and Tan Binh occasionally still refer to their area as Gia Dinh.
Cheers
Hiep
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 7:05 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks to Hiep Duc for the clarification. I suspected much of the information would be in Trinh Hoai Duc but I did not have the book with me.
When I was growing up in central Saigon, Gia Dinh was half suburb/ half country. My aunt lived there, in the area now known as No Trang Long, which is a warren of streets and lanes but was then mostly composed of clusters of mud huts linked by dirt lanes. To us children, visiting my aunt was like going to the country. Another aunt lived in Dakao (no one i knew ever said Dat Ho), half way to Gia Dinh. Her bookstore on Dinh Tien Hoang Street was razed to make way for a big road. Cho Lon was also somewhat "exotic" because of its Chinese population, but it was definitely urban, unlike Gia Dinh. Once in a while, my mother would go there to buy roast duck or roast pork (thit xa xiu) for a treat.
This is a bit off topic, so my apologies for this nostalgia trip.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
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From: Vinh Nguyen
Date: Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 1:02 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To add to the current discussion, here are some excerpts from Tr?nh Hoài Ð?c's Gia Ð?nh Thành Thông Chí of 1820 that refer to several archaic names for Saigon/Cochinchina and its surroundings.
>From Book 2 "Son Xuyên Chí" [Records of Mountains and Streams], there is a long supplementary note at the end of the section on Tr?n Biên Hòa [Biên Hòa Commandery]:
Ð?ng Nai là m?t tên riêng c?a Tr?n Biên Hòa, mà ch? Ð?ng Nai l?i ? phía nam h? luu sông Phu?c Giang, cách tr?n l? hon 8 d?m, vì là tru?c kia noi dó là cánh d?ng huou nai ?, nên g?i là Ð?ng Nai, ch? Hán là "L?c dã", l?i g?i là "L?c d?ng". V? d?t Gia Ð?nh có 5 tr?n là Phiên An, Biên Hòa, Vinh Thanh, Ð?nh Tu?ng, Hà Tiên khác nhau, trong ?y các tên x? s? r?t nhi?u, mà ngu?i b?n th? thu?ng nói, thì ch? g?i d?t Biên Hòa là Ð?ng Nai, Bà R?a, d?t Phiên An là B?n Nghé, Sài Gòn, d?t Ð?nh Tu?ng là V?ng Cù M? Tho, d?t Vinh Thanh g?i là Long H?, Sa Ðéc, d?t Hà Tiên là Cà Mau, R?ch Giá, dó là g?i theo l? s?, ho?c theo d?a d?u, ho?c theo ch? d?i t?p mà nói d?i khái, ch? không ph?i bày t? v?n v?t n?a. B?ng nay Gia Ð?nh mà g?i là Ð?ng Nai là v?n có can b?n, b?i vì nguyên ban d?u m?i m? d?t Gia Ð?nh thì b?t d?u t? Ð?ng Nai, cho nên ngu?i tru?c ch? g?c mà kiêm c? ng?n, ch? d?u mà li?n c? duôi, bèn g?i chung là Ð?ng Nai; nay ho?c quen theo mà không xét. Ngu?i b?n d?a dã m?n xung là Ð?ng Nai, ngu?i h?t khác cung nghe là Ð?ng Nai, ch?ng hi?u rõ ràng, d?n khi lâm s? c? hành, ho?c bàn cãi, ho?c h?i han, thì m? m?t ch?ng bi?t tông tích ra sao c?, th?c có nhi?u th?! Tr?i t? Tây Son làm lo?n, Th? T? Cao hoàng d? ta, l?y quân Ð?ng Nai, mà thu ph?c Xuân Kinh, lu?c d?nh B?c Hà, l?i quét s?ch gi?c bi?n, bình du?c hai k? gi?c l?n ?y, do d?y thanh danh c?a Ð?ng Nai l?ng l?y c? d?n Trung Qu?c. Mùa thu nam Nhâm Tu?t nam d?u Gia Long (1802), nu?c ta sang c?ng nu?c Ð?i Thanh, thì th?y s? sách Trung Qu?c dã chép ngu?i Ð?ng Nai là ngu?i Nông N?i, l?i càng nêu rõ trong thiên h? bi?t. Danh hi?u ?y, xua nay dây dó g?i có khác nhau, mà ngu?n và g?c thay d?i d? d?ng không th? bi?t v?y.
Bà R?a ?y là d?u d?a gi?i tr?n Biên Hòa là d?t danh ti?ng, cho nên các ph? mi?n B?c có ng?n ng? r?ng: "Com N?i, R?a, cá Rí, Rang", là vì l?y Ð?ng Nai - Bà R?a là d?u mà bao g?m c? B?n Ngé, Sài Gòn, M? Tho, Long H? ? c? trong dó. ... Xét Bà R?a là d?t L?c Chân L?p xua. Kh?o sách Tân Ðu?ng Thu nói: "Nu?c Ba Ly ? th?ng phía dông nam Chiêm Thành, t? c?a bi?n Giao Châu vu?t bi?n tr?i qua các nu?c Xích Th?, Ðan Ðan m?i d?n. Ð?t ?y có bãi r?ng, nhi?u ng?a, cung g?i tên là Mã L?. ... Phía nam có nu?c Thù N?i, sau d?i Vinh Huy [Ðu?ng Cao Tông ca. 650AD] b? nu?c Chân L?p thôn tính". C? dó mà nói, thì u?c lu?c cung gi?ng t?c c?a ngu?i Cao Mên, ngu?i Ðê, ngu?i M?i ngày nay, mà d?t cung dáng nhu th?. Tra ? sách Chính V?n, ch? l? âm là l?c d?a thi?t, ng? Bà R?a t?c là nu?c Bà L? xua chang mà Thù N?i l?i cùng v?i ti?ng Ð?ng Nai, Nông N?i nghe hoi gi?ng nhau, ho?c nay là d?t Sài Gòn chang? T?m chép ph? ? dây d? ch? nh?ng b?c h?c r?ng sau này kh?o biên.
NQVinh
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From: John Phan
Date: Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 6:12 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear list,
Many thanks for your very helpful replies.
Sincerely, John