Embedded Files
From: David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Date: May 22, 2006 8:53 PM
Subject: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006
Our son recently bumped into a copy of the 1985 edition of the Lonely
Planet's `South-East Asia on a Shoestring'. Out of 570pp, only 4.5pp are
devoted to Vietnam, Laos and Kampuchea, put in a final section called `The
Other South-East Asia'. Youngsters on the VSG list will be interested to
know that in 1985 it was only possible to travel to Vietnam on a
pre-arranged basis with Vietnam Tourism, the state monopoly. US passport
holders and journalists had no chance of getting a visa. The trains had
"seats designed for midgets". A lucky western backpacker might be able to
tag along with a package tour from Romania. By far the best place in Hanoi
to purchase Vietnamese paintings, lacquerware or porcelain was Xunhasaba,
the state book exporter. In Ho Chi Minh City, there was a dance once a
week with hostesses, and Madame Dai's private French restaurant provided an
escape from crude hotel food.
It wasn't quite as stark as that in 1985, yet the contrast with Vietnam two
decades later remains extraordinary. As for Kampuchea in 1985, it's clear
from the tiny Lonely Planet entry that neither Tony Wheeler nor any of his
rapidly growing staff had visited there yet.
David Marr
From: Markus Taussig <markustaussig@mac.com>
Date: May 23, 2006 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006
How long was Madam Dai's open? Does anyone know when it closed? I
had a pleasant meal there in 1993 and went back to Nguyen Du St. a
couple times in later years and was never sure whether it had shut
down or I was just missing the entrance...
markus
From: Judith Stowe <judy@stowe43.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: May 23, 2006 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006
Dear David, That Lonely Planet description of Vietnam sounds fairly
accurate, although despite being a journalist at the time I managed to get
there in April 1984. The Vietnamese Ambassador in London told me that I
needed to see how much the country had changed since 1975 and advised me to
go to Bangkok where I could obtain a visa on the pretext of being a travel
writer and so get myself on a tour arranged by Vietnam Tourism. As it turned
out, it was a package tour for one with two minders most of the time. Still
I did get to see a lot of the country as well as being arrested together
with my minders just south of Da Nang. During my interrogation I was asked
who had sent me to Vietnam. I naturally replied that it was their ambassador
in London. They could check with him. After that I was released and allowed
to continue the tour. Yes the hotel food was disgusting so I always insisted
on having a bowl of pho and eating at Mme Dai's at the end of the tour was a
real treat after ten days on the road. Incidentally I ate there again in
1988 when the food was not nearly as good.
As for Cambodia, I managed toget there too in 1984 thanks to some Thai
friends who arranged for me to visit a Khmer Rouge zone where I met most of
the leadership although not Pol Pot!
Regards Judy Stowe
PS In those days long ago it helped having a British passport. No longer I
fear!
From: sophie qj <sophie_qj@yahoo.com>
Date: May 23, 2006 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006
As many of you probably know, there were a number of US voluntary agencies who followed the humanitarian principle of giving aid to populations in need, regardless of the nature of the government they lived under, who regulary received visas for travel in Vietnam, from 1976 until things opened up in the early 1990s. These included the American Friends Service Committee, Church World Service, and the Mennonite Central Committee. And there was always the odd journalist passing through Bangkok who got lucky and received a visa. So the idea that Vietnam was a totally closed country is not entirely true.
Cheers,
Sophie Quinn-Judge
From: Stephen Denney <sdenney@ocf.berkeley.edu>
Date: May 23, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006
It seems to me that more critical perceptions of the Vietnamese political
leadership were developing at this time from some academics and former
antiwar activists, with the disaffection of former NLF leaders and third
force leaders such as Fr. Chan Tin who began openly voicing their
critiques in the early 80s.
- Steve Denney
From: Susan Hammond <frdev@mindspring.com>
Date: May 23, 2006 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006
Somewhat related to this topic is our upcoming conference in Washington, DC June 19 - 21 at George Washington University which will look back on the process of normalization of relations with Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam and the various actors who were involved in that process, NGOs, academics, veterans, government, refugee community members and so on. It will also look at some of the issues that have not yet been addressed between the US and these three countries. We are finalizing the speakers list now but the conference is more in the format of facilitated discussion with speakers laying the background than formal presentations by speakers. This will be followed by a ½ day meeting on the 22nd that will look at the lessons from the normalization process in C, L and VN for relations with Cuba.
I forgot to post a notice of the conference to this list serve earlier, though some of you on our snail-mail list should have gotten information about it several weeks ago. If you would like to attend, ignore the early registration deadline of May 19th and you can pay the lower registration rate of $40 as long as you let me know before the end of the month. Visit our website at http://www.ffrd.org for more information about the event or email me directly. The registration fee is also further discounted for financial strapped graduate students.
Susan Hammond
Deputy Director
Fund for Reconciliation and Development
Legacies & Lessons: Normalization of diplomatic, economic and cultural relations with
• Cambodia
• Laos
• Viet Nam
1975-2006 (and beyond)
Conference I: Legacies
Monday, June 19 (draft,subject to change)
5:30 p.m. registration and reception; films
7:30 p.m. Choices: Bob Edgar, National Council of Churches
Singing with Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul & Mary
Tuesday, June 20 The role of US civil society
9:00 a.m-10:30 a.m. NGOs
11:00 a.m.-12:30 p.m. Education and culture
1:30 p.m.-3:00 p.m. Veterans
3:30 p.m.-5:00 p.m. Former refugees
5:30 p.m.-7:00 p.m. Business
7:30 p.m.-9:30 p.m. Reception/dinner honoring the role of foundations
Wednesday, June 21 Engagement by governments
9:00 a.m.-10:30 a.m. White House, State Department, Congress
11:00 a.m.-12:30 p.m. Representatives of Cambodia, Laos, Viet Nam
1:30 p.m.-3:00 p.m. Physical legacies: land mines, UXO, Agent Orange
3:30 p.m.-5:00 p.m. Political legacies: Permanent Normal Trade Relations, Trade Bill, democracy, religion
5:30 p.m.-7:00 p.m. Break out groups
7:30 p.m.-9:30 p.m. Reception/dinner honoring political leaders of normalization
Fund for Reconciliation and Development
Sigur Center for Asian Studies, George Washington University
in cooperation with
Aid to Southeast Asia * American Friends Service Committee * The Gardner Documentary Group * Global Exchange *
National Council of Churches * Operation USA * Peacetrees Vietnam * Social Science Research Council * Vietnam Veterans of America * Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation/ Veterans International * Volunteers for Peace * Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom, US Section (list in formation)
The following is a partial participant/speaker list (not including diplomats from Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos who will be attending)
Desaix Anderson, first US Charge D'Affaires to Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Mark Ashwill, Institute of International Education, Vietnam Director
Jack Bailey, Institute of International Education, Washington
Sally Benson, Board member, Fund for Reconciliation and Development
Kevin Bowen, William Joiner Center, U Mass Boston
Joan Boyle, ISA
Jerilyn Brusseau, Peace Trees Vietnam
Jacqui Chagnon, American Friends Service Committee, South East Asia Coordinator
Richard Childress, former Director of Asia Affairs, National Council of Churches, 1981-9
Peter Coldwell, Volunteers for Peace
Catharin Dalpino, Georgetown University
Dana R.H. Doan, US-Vietnam Trade Council
Nam-Hau Doan, Cheer for Viet Nam
Bob Edger, General Secretary, National Council of Churches
David Elder, former director of Asia Programs, American Friends Service Committee
Virginia Foote, US-Asean Business Council, US-Viet Nam Trade Council
Janet Gardner, Gardner Documentary Group
Diane Gehman, Mennonite Central Committee
Ann Mills Griffiths, National League of POW/MIA Families*
Geraldine Kunstadter, Arthur Kunstadter Family Foundation*
Scott Marciel, head of Office of Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam Affairs*
Mary McDonnell, Social Science Research Council
Bobby Muller, Veterans International/Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation
Sandra Polaski, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
Ethan Parke
John Powers, Peace Trees Vietnam
Skip Roberts, Aid to Southeast Asia
Roger Rumpf, former Laos co-director, American Friends Service Committee
Arnold Schecter, University of Texas, Southwestern
Jan Scruggs, Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund
Steve Sherlock, Aid to Southeast Asia
Sothida Tan, Operation USA
Van Tran, Social Science Research Council
Charles Twining, first ambassador of US to Cambodia
Richard Walden, Operation USA
Rick Weidman, Vietnam Veterans of America
Rob Wolcott
Linda Yarr, Program for International Studies in Asia,
For the lessons conference (Cuba), so far we have:
Jake Colvin, USA*Engage
Kirby Jones, Alamar Associates
Tom Miller, Global Exchange
Robert Muse, attorney
Dagoberto Rodriguez, head of Cuba Interests Section in Washington
Wayne Smith, Center for International Policy, first head of US Interests Section in Havana
Richard Walden, Operation USA
Col Lawrence Wilkerson, USA (Ret.), Former Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:58:11 -0400
From: "Hoang Ngo" <ngohoang@gmail.com>
Subject: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006
For having grown up in Saigon during the 80's, I still vividly remember how dead Saigon was. There was probably about one international flight into Tan Son Nhat airport a week; the only visible bar/cafe on Dong Khoi street that I remember was Broda, which was a hole in the wall, nothing like it is now; and down the street from Broda, Maxim or Cuu Long or Majestic hotel was taken over by the state, where according to my dad was one of the few places in Saigon that one could get French food at the time -- besides Mme Dai's restaurant. My brother said Mme Dai's restaurant was open 'till 1997, then it was closed for renovation, but it was never reopened, or was reopened but only for a brief period of time, because he went looking for it in again 1998 but never found it.
In 1989 my dad's brother, who made his first trip back to Vietnam from the US since 1975, had to travel with a group of veterans, flying into Hanoi from Thailand and traveling on bus from Hanoi to Saigon with them. And the co^ng an phu'o'`ng was very watchful of his presence at our place, as they made a couple of visits. However, my mom's brother who visited Vietnam from Switzerland earlier, probably around 1984, had a much easier time. He traveled up and down Vietnam with my parents with ease -- as my parents showed my friends my baby pictures taken during those trips and retold the stories.
So much has changed...
hoang
From: royby <royby@royby.com>
Date: May 24, 2006 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006
I think that Madame Dai's restaurant is still located at 84A Nguyen
Du St. I haven't been there even though I've been living quite close
in D3 for the past 2 years but I saw her place featured on a
television documentary only about 5 months ago. I'm in Australia at
present but will be back in VN in July so I will go take a look for
myself.
Maxims has been purchased by a Vietnamese colleague of mine. His
family company purchased the old theatre restaurant and have done
very extensive renovations. I attended the opening of the new "Maxims
Nam An" in November 2004. It is now a very popular upmarket
Vietnamese restaurant and it is great to see that a place with so
much history is still around and thriving. I posted some images of
the event on to my weblog at the time and they can be found here:
http://royby.com/royby_comments.php?id=578_0_2_0_C
Over the last 2 years I travelled extensively around many parts of
Viet Nam and only needed to obtain permission from the local police
in some ethnic minority areas or old battle sites and only when I was
with a guide. However, I have returned to the same ethnic areas sans
the guide and have gone pretty much where I wanted to without
problems, although that may be more through good luck than good
management.
Many foreigners currently living in VN swear that they have their own
private spook as this article by a friend of mine (Vietnamese/
American) shows (second paragraph top article).
http://goodmorningsaigon.blogspot.com/
2006_01_01_goodmorningsaigon_archive.html
but I'm not sure about that myself.
Things are changing very rapidly Hoang and I'm sure for the better
cheers - roy
From: John Aloia <jjohnaloia@yahoo.com>
Date: May 27, 2006 12:08 AM
Subject: [Vsg] Madame Dai's restaurant...
Yesterday, I went to 84A Nguyen Du. It's clearly now a private residence only. I spoke with three different sources in the area, all of whom claimed to have been living in the area 20+ years. All had the exact same story regarding the fate of the restaurant with just a slight twist. They all agreed that the restaurant closed about 6-7 years ago and that Madame Dai sold the restaurant/home and moved to a nursing home in the Ben Thi Nghe area of Saigon. One of the sources said she had heard that Madame Dai has since passed away.
Also of interest in the area is the adjacent and attractive Vietnamese style home (not villa- it's relatively small) located at 84 Nguyen Du. The Vietnamese-born wife of a Newsweek reporter told me she and her American husband had lived in the home for several years prior to 1975. At the time of our conversation outside of the gate/low fence in front of the home in 2000, the home was in a state of disrepair. Took a look at it again yesterday. It's been renovated, at least on the outside, with a new, much higher fence now in front of it. Neighbors told me a Viet Kieu bought the home two years ago and has been steadily fixing it up.
John
From: Diane Fox (dnfox) <dnfox@hamilton.edu>
Date: May 25, 2006 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006--Is anyone doing oral histories on this--I hope??
This conversation brings to mind a project I have long wished someone
would do...a project that needs doing urgently, as many of those to be
interviewed are old--although one part of the interest is in the
variety of perspectives brought by a variety of ages (and all other
demographic variations) talking about these transformations.
There are such incredible stories of reconstruction and change--with
some of the key players (no, not big names but the ordinary farmers
who filled in the bomb craters on their land, pulled the bones out of
their ham's in the villages they had abandoned/been forced to leave
for the ap chien luoc, cut the wild grass that had grown to eye level,
made the bricks and tossed them up one by one to fellow workers as the
buildings were remade from the rubble, etc, etc, etc.) about to pass
beyond any chance of interview.
On a more trivial pursuit sort of level, for several years in the
early '90's I kept a simple list of changes in the material culture of
Hanoi--the first traffic signal, the first plastic bags, things like
that. The there is the record to be made of the million and one
ingenious ways life was made out of devastation.
I would love to hear that someone is working on making these records,
love to read your work. It is such a testament to the human spirit, it
needs to be written down. Soon no one will believe it.
OK, I'll step down off my soap box now. But I do feel passionately
about this!
Diane
From: DiGregorio, Michael <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
Date: May 25, 2006 8:04 PM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006--Is anyone doing oral histories on this--Ihope??
Dear All,
The Vietnam Museum of Ethnology is putting together and exhibition on
"life under the subsidy economy." I put this bug in Prof. Huy's ear
about a year ago when I told him how I used a "phieu mua hang" to elicit
stories about life under the subsidy economy. My interest was in
learning how markets operated above and below the radar screen.
Invariably, parents would call their children in to listen to their
stories. And that is what Huy become interested in. Younger people are
unaware of the many ingenious ways their parents and grandparents had
pieced together (chap va) their lives - from building networks of
relationships, to mixing formal and informal sources of income, to
reconstructing their living spaces, to recycling materials into new
products...
The exhibit will include artifacts collected from the citizens of Hanoi
and surrounding rural areas, and in addition, Huy's AV staff have become
some thrilled with their interviews that they are now working on a short
documentary.
While not a history of doi moi as Diane suggests, this exhibition will
provide a background for anyone who is interested in just how much life
has changed for most people. And, I should say, it gives parents and
grandparents an opportunity to relate their own stories of personal
sacrifice and ingenuity to a younger generation facing an entirely
different set of difficulties.
Mike
From: Diane Fox (dnfox) <dnfox@hamilton.edu>
Date: May 26, 2006 6:34 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006--Is anyone doing oral histories on this--Ihope??
Great news, Mike! I'll be eager to see the results.
Just one clarification: it's not a history of doi moi that interests
me. It's the personal stories of how, whatever your politics, you
reclaim a land that has been pocked with 15-29 million bomb craters
(not to mention 10 % of parts of it-- that's 50% of certain provinces,
and 100% of certain places, of course--ravaged by chemicals of various
sorts, etc, etc), had much of its physical infrastructure destroyed,
loss of labor power, etc, etc. The political is a significant part of
that, but only a part. How do you rebuild from being bombed back to
the stone age, to put it in hyperbolic terms? A comparison to the
effect on the US of a tragic but infinitely smaller scale event helps
raise questions that might be asked about responses, changes in social
structure, effect on politics, labor and financing involved, etc.
thanks for the info!
Diane
From: Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
Date: May 31, 2006 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006--Is anyone doing oral histories on this--Ihope??
Dear Mike,
This sounds really great! Have they set a target date for opening the exhibit?
cheers
Michele
From: DiGregorio, Michael <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
Date: Jun 1, 2006 12:02 AM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] 1985 vs 2006--Is anyone doing oral historieson this--Ihope??
I just heard today that the exhibition is set to open on June 15, 2006.
mike
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