Duc Me Statue

Is anyone following the news on reports of the Duc Me statue (Duc Ba cathedral Saigon) shedding tears? It's been in local news for two days -- and despite the Church's efforts to play things down the streets around the square have been packed with thousands. (The Police closed off the surrounding streets on Saturday and Sunday).

Church leaders are blaming 'bad elements' for spreading unsubstantiated rumours ... I'm trying to find out who first reported the tears -- whether they be 'bad elements' or not -- anyone got some further info?

Jacob Ramsay

I read an unsubstantiated report that said the first

person who saw the tears was a kid selling lottery

tickets at about 2 p.m. local time Saturday. The kid

supposedly is not Catholic but is an admirer of the

statue.

Anthony Le

Dear List,

Living in Saigon, I saw the Duc Ba statue sunday night. It was

incredible : street around were closed by the police and the square

was crowded by thousands people, were singing and crying ! So, more

seriously, the rumor has started this week-end, and since sunday

pictures were already sold and bought. We can wonder if it's a

commercial act or the act of a bird.... here are two pictures (jpeg)

best regards.

M. Verney Sébastien

Chercheur doctorant à l'IERP

PHD student

Jacob Ramsay

I read an unsubstantiated report that said the first

person who saw the tears was a kid selling lottery

tickets at about 2 p.m. local time Saturday. The kid

supposedly is not Catholic but is an admirer of the

statue.

Anthony Le

Dear List,

Living in Saigon, I saw the Duc Ba statue sunday night. It was

incredible : street around were closed by the police and the square

was crowded by thousands people, were singing and crying ! So, more

seriously, the rumor has started this week-end, and since sunday

pictures were already sold and bought. We can wonder if it's a

commercial act or the act of a bird.... here are two pictures (jpeg)

best regards.

M. Verney Sébastien

Chercheur doctorant à l'IERP

PHD student

Thanks Verney and Anthony.

I got down to Duc Ba last night and the streets were still very, very

crowded. Thousands were still flowing into the square by bike to stop for a

minute and take a look -- while a couple of hundred lined the streets on the

Dong Khoi side of the square. I estimated a couple of hundred, mostly women,

were gathered close to the statue. Some jostled (politely) to lay hands on

the pillar base while others chanted the rosary. A group of elderly were

sitting around the back of the statue keeping a vigil with some candles and

a larger group of elderly were grouped at the gates of the cathedral.

Despite church efforts to throw water on the suggestion of a miracle,

people -- and not just Catholics -- are taking this occurence very

seriously.

Although the area was not blocked off there were plenty of police and trat

tu vien keeping watch. Nearly all the flower beds around the statue have

been trampled and turned over -- a handful of public gardens people are

keeping a vigil around the remaining beds, warning people off the handful of

surviving plants. A truck with a loudspeaker parked right out the front of

the statue was blaring a message for people to remain orderly and not linger

too long in the square. And yep, there are plenty of hawkers making a

roaring trade selling pictures of the statue and its tear-streaked face.

(One priest has reported it was caused by rain -- it looks a bit like an

"act of a bird", as Verney wrote).

Are there any other researchers in town following this? It seems a little

too good to miss (and share notes over)...

J Ramsay

I was curious if the crowds are still congregating around the Duc Ba statue

in downtown Saigon, as per fascinating first-hand reports to the VSG list

at the end of October? If so, it would be a remarkable relaxation of

people controls on the part of the authorities. Has anything been said in

the local press? Does Saigon have any radio `talk shows' yet, where

listeners might call in innocently?

David Marr

Hi David,

People were still gathering in the square mid last week (12 days on) but

numbers had apparently dwindled. I'm aware of only three news reports on

the story in the "An Ninh Trat Tu" section of Saigon Giai Phong -- Thanh

Nien ran a story on the third day and Tuoi Tre had a sharp jab at the

phenomenon in its daily cartoon on 1/11. The Catholic magazine ran a

story but I'm yet to get a copy.

Despite the fact that the story gained so little coverage -- and the

coverage was mostly local -- I met people who'd come from far and wide

at a day's notice to see the statue. It is indeed a remarkable

relaxation of control -- but I wonder if the crowds could've been

stopped if the government had wanted to.

Jacob Ramsay

Hi all,

The Vietnamese authority is certainly in a bind with

this issue because if they decide to take forceful

actions to stop the crowds whether for political or

social safety concerns, the human rights groups

overseas would have a field day with this and run away

with a story of further evidence of religious

oppression. Vietnam is still trying to get its name

removed from the U.S. list of countries of particular

concern, so this wouldn't help it any.

But Jacob has a good point. I doubt if the people

could have been stopped if very extraordinary means

were not used to prevent them from congregating. The

best and I believe intentional method by the

government was to largely ignore it in the media so as

to minimize public discussion about it. The other way

is to put out the word informally that this was an

"accident of nature" so that people would start to feel

somewhat silly for coming to pray and thinking that

there was a miracle while in fact, it was the work of

an insensitive bird.

anthony

Hi David, Jacob and all

I am interested in the notion that what we have witnessed in relation to

the Duc Ba statue represents a 'remarkable relaxation of control' which

both David and Jacob seem to agree on.

My experience of Vietnam goes back far enough now that I am certainly not

against the idea that former controls have been relaxed and I am well aware

of all the stuff about unauthorised gatherings etc.

However, I have been puzzling over 'a remarkable relaxation of control'.

In relation to what? Do you have specific examples in mind?

I was trying to think: had this happened in 1995 or 1985, what would the

reponse have been and do we have anything remotely similar to compare with?

I rather agree with Anthony's assessment of the official Vietnamese take on

the situation and in that sense think we need to be careful before reading

too much into this in terms of a 'relaxation'.

Of course for a state like Vietnam's spontaneous gatherings are always

potentially dangerous but I think on this occasion they have rightly

concluded that its not a big deal (which may be is a change from

something...).

However, I can think of plenty of examples where we are seeing anything but

a relaxation of control: it all depends on the context.

Best

Martin

I think the cup half full version of Martin's point (which by saying

that there still is substantial control... or, at least, desire for

control... is more of the half empty view) would be to say that, in

Ho Chi Minh City, at least, gatherings of large groups haven't really

caused much alarm for at least a decade. You even used to have the

reasonably political gatherings of former soldiers in the park right

by the cathedral in the mornings, relating to the ODP process;

gatherings related to the lottery readings, too, have long been

common for a long time, never getting broken up despite their impact

on traffic; even weekly services and Christmas madness don't get

responded to with much direct application of control.

In fact, for public safety's sake, the problem is usually

insufficient order, isn't it? I think this relates to the large

space between likely government ambitions and its capacity. But

we've also seen that the government is pretty wise about this gap

and, as Martin points out, tends to be quite practical when dealing

with these public situations.

Markus

I also have a suspicion that the authorities think it's just fine for

the church to tie itself up with weeping statues. Anything that smacks

of vacuous piety is just the sort of blind alley where they'd like the

Church to be. It's when the Church turns to the fulfillment of its true

mission that they would start to get nervous.

Peter Hansen

This is a fair point, but it seemed to me that there is a big gap

between what the Church is saying and what Catholics on the ground are

thinking/doing. People I spoke to in the square were quite disapproving

of the Church's response ...

Jacob Ramsay

Hi,

I think that we should not dramatize, the gathering around Duc Ba

statue is not political or against the government. Moreover, the

police wasn't present early and then, they closed streets all around

for security, I was in the street in motorbike and the danger was

multiplied. The religious enthusiasm has been present since the first

day but we don't have to forget that the reason why people gather

around the statue is curiosity and the government understand that

very well. This explains little reaction from the government and

according to me, the "tear" of the statue was more natural than

surnartural ( a bird??). And, we are not in 1995, now that contol is

more discrete: the control of the population during the Sea Games

was more dangerous: there was much more people, much more stress,

and the defeat of the Vietnamese football team could have let thought

at very important overflows. Indeed, if a sportive demonstration is

not politic, the nationalist madness can change it rapidly.

The history of Vietnam often shows this.

Sébastien Verney

Chercheur doctorant à l'IERP

Jacob's point is well taken. In this case, it seems

to me that the government really had the Church

leaders doing the work for them. Church leaders were

telling people to stay away, that anything in the

manner of a miracle was just silly rumors. A friend

told me that Hoa Binh book store (belonging to the

Cathedral) was refusing to let people use its parking

lot for their motorbikes while they came to see the

statue. Church leaders seemed very annoyed that people

were gathering to pray in front of the statue.

My assessment of the Church's leaders in this

situation is that it has been less than pastoral. This

is rather in contrast to Francis Cardinal George's

reaction to the "miracle" in Chicago last year where a

blot that somewhat resembled the image of Mary

appeared on the underpass of a highway. When Americans

flocked there by the thousands, many jokes were made

and Church leaders were quick to not endorse the

image. However, George also included in his warnings

statements such as: If there was anything that brought

people together, to pray, to share faith, then it is a

positive thing. He said that it's wonderful if it

reminds people of the Virgin Mary's care and love for

us.

There are a lot of ways for Church leaders to express

the position of the Church, but at the same time, they

must remember that their primary task is to be

pastoral care givers. In this case, I did not find the

Vietnamese church leaders very adept at handling a

rather sensitive issue of popular faith and devotion.

Anthony

Continuing the discussion on the degree of state control of large

gatherings, I think the authorities will first look to see if some group is

planning and organizing. This does not appear to be the case with the Duc

Ba statue. It's different with the Hoa Hao, however. Or home churches

among Protestants.

When I was in Vietnam in September, there were lots of articles about a

healing venue in Long An (?) province, where hundreds of people with a

variety of serious ailments had congregated, followed by food vendors, the

police, pickpockets, etc. It became something of a camp under the trees.

The state reacted by dispatching learned medical specialists and social

scientists to prepare reports, which naturally declared the place to be

useless for healing, reeking with superstition, and fertile ground for

criminal elements. Only after newspapers denounced the place did the

police move in to disperse everyone. Supposedly the ill were taken for

legitimate treatment, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

David Marr

“Crying Virgin Mary in Sacramento”

It would come as little surprise that this occurs at a Vietnamese church in Sacramento. The response of the church there is similar to that of the church in Vietnam but taking one step further: they are testing the "tears" to see what it is made of.

To see local television broadcast:

http://www.take2tango.com/video1.html

Hien

Please keep us posted as to the results of the test, Hien. And, if

there is another way to send the story, that would be great. My

computer couldn't use the link.

thanks for the info!

Diane

Diane and list,

Here's another link and a copy of another report. In a report from this site, the reporter said that the church will not investigate the substance seen running out of the statue's eye.

I have no idea which report is more accurate.

Hien

http://cbs13.com/topstories/local_story_325194429.html

Nov 21, 2005 4:34 pm US/Pacific

Virgin Mary Statue Seen Crying Tears Of Blood

Marcy Valenzuela

Reporting

(CBS 13) SACRAMENTO The Catholic faithful are calling it a miracle. So they're bringing their cameras, their rosaries, their children and grandchildren to an otherwise quiet church on the outskirts of town.

"To me, personally, it is a miracle. You believe it or don't believe it, that's okay. But I strongly believe it", says Sacramento resident Andre Nguyen.

It is ar the Vietnamese Catholic Martyrs Church, that an outdoor statue of the Virgin Mary appears to be shedding tears of blood. Tears that stream down her face onto her robe, testing the faith of all who come.

"I think that at this time in history, in terms of what's happening in the United States, what's happening in the church, that this is possibly a sign", says Sacramento Resident Brenda Harris.

Parishoners first noticed the tears of blood on Wednesday. But fearing they were put there by pranksters, a priest here wiped the statue clean, only to have those tears return over the weekend.

The church has now contacted the Catholic Diocese in hopes an investigation will be launched. Many are so convinced it's real, they weep.

Ky Truong, who does maintenance at the church says he saw the tears rolling down the statues face around 8:30 Sunday morning. Like most at the church, he sees it as a call for prayer.

CBS 13 tried to contact the Catholic Diocese in Sacramento to determine how cases like these are investigated, but their offices were closed today.

The church is located at 10371 Jackson Road.