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Dan Duffy <dduffy@email.unc.edu>
date Feb 27, 2007 5:32 PM
subject [Vsg] a "Viet Nam" era casus belli
Hi all, if I may stretch the locus of "Viet Nam" , I would like to
remark on the pretext the Bush administration is manufacturing for an
attack on Iran.
They've been yammering about secret parts that Iran sends into Iraq for
particularly sinister roadside bombs. Today's NYT had an article about
some of these parts.
They consist of a cylinder and a piece of metal. What you do is lodge
the metal obliquely in the rigid cylinder with a piece of explosive on
the bottom. In the explosion, the metal liquifies and shoots out in havoc.
I have heard about this cheerful technique on laboring jobs across the
US for the last 20 years, from men who had learned it at Cherry Point or
Langley or some improvised classroom at Vientiane or the Caribbean. The
training manual seems to have talked about using it on a school bus,
since I keep hearing about that.
Nothing high-tech or Iranian about it. You each likely have a neighbor
who could whip one up in his garage. As a pretext for further war, this
makes the Lester Maddox look well.
Dan
"Marc J. Gilbert" <mgilbert@hpu.edu>
date Feb 27, 2007 6:13 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] a "Viet Nam" era casus belli
Dan, of course, means the U. S. S. (William) Maddox of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident: “Lester” Maddox's refusal to let African-Americans into the University of Georgia provoked a more respected US war against racism in Georgia (state of).
What is most shocking is that even after the revelations about the Tonkin Gulf AND the WMD in Iraq there is no hue and cry about the manufacturing of evidence for a war against Iran.
The first broadside in this war was fired by the new Secretary of Defense came when he said he was certain Iran is aiding in assaults on US personnel, but that he had nor could offer any evidence that this was so. Is this a method of pressuring Iran, or the beginning of a trend?
Perhaps this suspension of disbelief is what will become a defining element of “post-modern warfare.”
But Dan is right in that this subject is tangential to this list, save that the Gulf of Tonkin now reaches to Bandar Abbas.
Marc
David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
date Feb 28, 2007 4:05 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] a "Viet Nam" era casus belli
Perhaps I've missed something, but why is it any less legitimate for Iran to be supplying weapons to its friends in Irag than for the US to be doing likewise (in much greater quantities) to its friends? Indeed, why is it legitimate for US armed forces to be in Iraq but not armed Iranians? The same questions came up in regard to Vietnam in the 1960s, and many Americans had the same blind spot.
David Marr
"Marc J. Gilbert" <mgilbert@hpu.edu>
date Feb 28, 2007 6:43 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] a "Viet Nam" era casus belli
No, David, not a blind spot. An email on one topic can bear only so much freight.
My issue was not the right and wrong of a war with Iran, or the rectitude of Iranian behavior, but that causus belli now are to be manufactured with a post-modern sensisbility, i.e. We (or any nation today) no longer feels it needs to justify its actions with evidence nor does the public any longer expect honest evidence.
Doug Pike said that the troubles of the US in Vietnam began when we knew little about it, knew we knew little about it, and didn't care. It is about the only thing he and I ever completely agreed on.
My comment was to draw attention to the fact that we are back to these same premises. but now with a public that no longer cares either and their leaders know it.
It is the post-modern wink (SecDef says I know, but have no evidence and that doesn't not matter, really, does it?) I wrote about, not the actual situation on the ground, such what is Iran is doing or should or should not do, for itself or for peace or empire (theirs or ours) in the region. To study or act upon knowledge of the latter, well, that would be just plain modern!
Personally, I have spent time in Iran, my religion often has me pray in Farsi, I have no desire to go to war there and I agree with most scholars that US pressure on Iran is the the only thing the Iranian government can rely on in terms of sustaining itself. Its economy is failing and recent local elections show no confidence in the regime. Many Iranians view the Islamic Republic as merely an unending source of Mullah Nasiruddin stories. Most Americans do not even know what a Mullah Nasiruddin story is.
As for wars past and future, I can not ever say if I was right or will be right about them--I did/could speak from conscience and what little I know firsthand and have refused/continue to refuse to permit myself to be be bullied or lied to in order to get me to endorse or reject any governments' action. Only the best evidence and reasoned argument can influence me, and my mind is always open to more of that.
And David, _that_ has often been called my worst blind spot, i.e. not getting with the program.
"Adam @ UoM" <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Feb 28, 2007 8:29 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] a "Viet Nam" era casus belli, >>>> and Herge's take on a related matter ...
With abiding respect,
I am reading Herge's Tintin - The Blue Lotus - to my younger children. In it
you find a clear depiction of the construction of a causus belli by the
Japanese over the blowing-up of a railway in China, complete with references
to radio and newspaper propaganda. Date of the incident is 1931 or so, of
the book 1946. There is also an interesting discussion between Tintin and
Chang about the construction of identity and how silly and malign it is.
Adam
Marc
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