Han-Viet question
From: John Phan
Date: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 10:27 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hello everyone:
Here is a question and a plea for those of you up on your Han-Viet. Has anyone seen the compound ?? (c?n nghiêm) before, with any meaning other than the current (Chinese) sense of "being precise and rigorous"? Also, has anyone seen the compound ?? (huong ng?c) in any Viet. texts before? In the Chinese context it can mean (1) actual fragrant jade, (2) certain kinds of very precious jade, (3) a metaphor for a flower petal, or (4) a metaphor for a beautiful woman's abdomen. Finally, same question for ?? (tiên sinh)--specifically here, if there was ever any kind of rank (formal or informal) that was implied by the title. If anyone has seen these compounds with different/Viet-specific connotations, I would really welcome the tip.
Happy New Year everyone!
Best,
--
John D. Phan
Ph.D. Candidate
East Asian Linguistics & Literature
Cornell University
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From: Ngô Thanh Nhàn
Date: 2011/2/8
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear John,
Googling ?? , I found mostly names, however, I also found
which translates huong ng?c to mean "shining crystal" in
Pujang--they also make crystal bottle for perfumes.
I think where you got these compounds, ?? , ?? , ... may
determine what they mean.
Hán Vi?t, Sino-Vietnamese (SV), uses Chinese word
formation to form Vietnamese SV words, with elements
restricted in meaning (just like English uses Latin roots),
and the interpretation may also be totally different.
For example, ti?u tâm in Chinese means be careful,
but in Vietnamese it means 'small/petty heart'.
Hoàng Phê told me about a third of SV compounds in
Truy?n Ki?u could not be found in the great Chinese
dictionaries. They were formed by Vietnamese using
SV word formation.
Most Vietnamese scholars believe that if they find
an SV ideogram or compound in a Chinese dictionary,
they think that it *is* the "correct" meaning for it.
Thus, we may need to see the *Vietnamese* contexts
before knowing what they really means. I surmise that
if the compound ?? (a pair of equal adjectives, c?n
and nghiêm and similar attitudes) comes from a Vietnamese
buddhist text, it may means something totally different.
Best,
Nhan
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From: lawrence driscoll
Date: Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 8:19 AM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Hi John:
?? (tiên sinh) is in common usage in both Korea (sonsaeng) and Japan (sensei), as a formal title for teachers. However, in China it (xiansheng) seems to have fallen out of common usage for that purpose. In general, for all three, it is a title of respect for anyone (usually male) "born earlier" than oneself. As for usage in Vietnam, I cannot say for sure if the same usage applies, but am axious to hear the response of others.
Best wishes at the Lunar New Year,
Lawrence Driscoll
Seton Hall University
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From: Grace Chew
Date: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 5:45 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear John
The collocation is a title and/or address term.
In Japan: a title of respect for someone who teaches.
In China (in the 80s-90s) (Mandarin): "Mr"
In standard Mandarin, "laoshi"is used for "teacher".
In some Chinese "dialects'' and non-standard varieties of Mandarin: may mean "teacher" and "Mr".
The collocation is not used for any male who is born earlier than oneself in the case of Japan and China. ( In quotidian usage, we can't always guess the age of the addressee correctly. )
I heard that in Vietnam, tien sinh is for an exceptionally knowledgeable/ brilliant teacher (a master). I am not sure if this is an archaic title, as I have not heard anyone using it. I'd like to hear what others say as well.
Best wishes,
Grace
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From: John Phan
Date: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 10:38 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Lawrence--
Thanks very much for the tip. The context for the line really implies some kind of position in higher education, so the Korean and Japanese precedents are very useful.
Best, John
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From: Sinh Vinh
Date: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 4:13 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
A few words about ‘c?n nghiêm’ ( ?? ) .
The term ‘c?n nghiêm’ is not often heard, so far as I know. We only heard of words like of ‘câ?n tro ? ng’ ( ?? ), at least in my generation. Of course, ‘c?n nghiêm’ and ‘ câ?n tro ? ng’ have different meanings.
Having said that, both my Ha´n-Viê?t dictionaries and Ha´n-Ho`a (Chinese-Japanese dictionaries) have ‘c?n nghiêm’.
A Ha´n-Ho`a dictionary defines ‘c?n nghiêm’ as follows:
1. Do things cautiously and rigorously/prudently.
2. Be careful and cautious with every word and sentence in making
a composition. [Ha`n Du~, Tiê´n ho?c gia?i ?????? ] ? Xuân thu câ?n nghiêm ?????
I suspect the second meaning 2. is not used in modern times, so in the modern dictionary they delete it.
Best wishes,
Sinh
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From: Ngô Thanh Nhàn
Date: 2011/2/10
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear John and Th?y Sính,
Thank you for clarifying on the compound ?? ."c?n nghiêm".
When I was growing up (in the 1960's) in Sài-gòn, I heard
a lot more of the compound "nghiêm c?n" (without any
reference to the ideograms ?? , but I think those are
the ones). In the context of South Vietnam then, the
term hinted more of behaviors. John, I wonder if you're
only looking for references to the ideograms, not the
qu?c ng?, correct?
In the 1960's when the studies of existentialism and
buddhism were on the rise in the South, writers seemed
to have a habit of inverse the known Sino-Vietnamese
compounds for emphasis.
In any case, thank you, John, for asking. The term
has been on my mind.
Best,
Nhàn
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From: will pore
Date: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 6:57 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear List,
In Korean, 'xiansheng' ('sonsaeng') does not really mean teacher unless the postfix '-nim' is attached. Broadly it could mean teacher, but most teachers would probably feel slighted by 'sonsaeng' alone. Thus it's more like Mr. in meaning. In Vietnamese texts written in Chinese, I've seen 'tien sinh' after names, but have not been sure how to translate it, except maybe Mr. or sir.
Will Pore
--
William F. Pore, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Global Studies
College of Economics and International Trade
Pusan National University