Village Life in the Early 20th Century
[Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 208, Issue 3
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Hieu Phung <minhhieu@msn.com>
Feb 17, 2016, 1:02 PM
to vsg
Hi everybody,
That such a translation is published is really great news! I just want to add a tiny point.
Pham Xuan Loc should have used the term "Bắc Kỳ," as the cover page for the "Notice on Selling and Buying Titles and Posts" shows.
Thanks so much for pointing out this fascinating source!
Hieu Phung
On Feb 17, 2016, at 10:00 AM, vsg-request@mailman11.u.washington.edu wrote:
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1. Re: NEW PUBL: Pham Xuan Loc, Nguyen Van Nguyen, Philippe
Papin- Village Life-Early 20th century (Diane Fox)
2. Re: New Article from Natalie Newton: Web Links
(Nguyen-Vo, Thu-Huong)
From: Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] NEW PUBL: Pham Xuan Loc, Nguyen Van Nguyen, Philippe Papin- Village Life-Early 20th century
Date: February 16, 2016 1:01:56 PM HST
To: huetamtai@gmail.com
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
ok — maybe I’ve spent too many years as an English teacher and sometime copy editor, but for me, there is a clear, meaningful distinction between 'North Vietnam' and ‘in the north of Vietnam’. One is a charged political term, the other, a geographical marker. So, yes to Hue-Tam’s “northern Vietnamese villages”, but no to “North Vietnam”—unless it is historically accurate, which it doesn’t seem to be in this case.
Diane
Diane Fox
Independent researcher and long-time English writing teacher
On Feb 16, 2016, at 8:09 AM, huetamtai@gmail.com wrote:
Actually, this is an interesting issue. One could say that the village is representative of northern Vietnamese villages but not of southern ones. So using Vietnam without qualifications might be insufficient.
Hue -Tam
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 16, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Olga —
Well, if Pham Xuan Loc did not use any of these terms, then I become curious who is using the term ‘North Vietnam’ in this context, and why? I know that Ha Dong is in the north of Viet Nam (I lived bicycling distance from it for several years)… but we called it Vietnam.
So your use of the term made me wonder.
Diane
Diane Fox
Independent Researcher
On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Dror, Olga <olgadror@tamu.edu> wrote:
Dear Professor,
The title page of the manuscript reads: "Tục lệ ở xã Dịch Vọng Tiền tổng Dịch Vọng huyện Từ Liêm phủ Hoài Đức tỉnh Hà Đông." I did not see in the text itself that Pham Xuan Loc himself would employ any of the appellations that you mention, but this is pretty much expected in such manuscripts. However, I might have missed something.
If you would like any further clarifications, you might want to contact either Philippe or Nguyen Van Nguyen directly.
With best wishes,
Olga
_____________________________________________
Olga Dror
https://tamu.academia.edu/OlgaDror
Dept. of History,
103D M. Glasscock Bld.,
Texas A&M University,
College Station, TX 77843-4236
Fax : 979-862-4314
e-mail : olgadror@tamu.edu
Dept. webpage: http://history.tamu.edu/faculty/dror.shtml
From: huetamtai@gmail.com [huetamtai@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 8:34 AM
To: Dror, Olga
Cc: Diane Fox; Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: Re: [Vsg] NEW PUBL: Pham Xuan Loc, Nguyen Van Nguyen, Philippe Papin- Village Life-Early 20th century
Dear Olga,
I, too, wondered with Diane how Pham Xuan Loc referred to Bac Ky/Bac Bo/Mien Bac/ Tonkin. Perhaps Philippe can answer this question.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
Harvard.
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Dror, Olga <olgadror@tamu.edu> wrote:
Dear Diane,
Ha Dong was in the close proximity to Hanoi.
Hope it helps.
With best wishes,
Olga
_____________________________________________
Olga Dror
https://tamu.academia.edu/OlgaDror
Dept. of History,
103D M. Glasscock Bld.,
Texas A&M University,
College Station, TX 77843-4236
Fax : 979-862-4314
e-mail : olgadror@tamu.edu
Dept. webpage: http://history.tamu.edu/faculty/dror.shtml
From: Diane Fox [dnfox70@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 11:41 PM
To: Dror, Olga; Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: Re: [Vsg] NEW PUBL: Pham Xuan Loc, Nguyen Van Nguyen, Philippe Papin- Village Life-Early 20th century
Hi Olga —
Thanks for this… sounds very interesting.
Your description, though, left me a bit puzzled. You say the manuscript was from 1923, Ha Dong province… but what confuses me is the 'North Vietnam'. Gets me to thinking about what it would have been called, and by whom, in 1923. Annam? Viet Bac? Mien Bac? What terminology did he himself use?
thanks for clarifying,
Diane
Diane Fox
Independent Scholar
On Feb 15, 2016, at 5:48 AM, Dror, Olga <olgadror@tamu.edu> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
I think it is for the first time in the cycle of these announcements that I am introducing a new publication the author of which has passed away in the last century. In 1923, Phạm Xuân Lộc, a Confucianist from Hà Đông province, North Vietnam, wrote a manuscript that helps us today to understand the composition and the character of a village at the time. He wrote it in Hán. It is kept in the library of the Société Asiatique in Paris. Most of us would never be able to familiarize ourselves with it and with the village life in the early twentieth century if not for the two wonderful scholarsNguyễn Văn Nguyên (formerly with the Hán-Nôm Institute in Hanoi and presently retired), and Philippe Papin (École Pratique des Hautes Études, Paris) who translated and introduced Phạm Xuân Lộc's work.
Congratulations to both of them on this new publication! I am sure Phạm Xuân Lộc would be very pleased with it!
Phạm Xuân Lộc, Nhân danh tập chí 人名集誌 Tài liệu về tổ chức và tục lệ của làng quê Bắc Kì. Un recueil sur les organisations et coutumes villageoises au nord du Vietnam. Dịch và giới thiệu/traduit et présenté par Nguyễn Văn Nguyên et Philippe Papin (Hanoi: Nhà xuất bản Thế Giới, École Pratique des Hautes Études, École Française d'Extrême-Orient, 2016).
<IMG_0002.JPG>
The book opens with the translators' introduction in Vietnamese and in French, followed by the translation into Vietnamese and into French of Phạm Xuân Lộc's work, and finally, the facsimile of the original in Hán characters. Phạm Xuân Lộc's work consists of 3 parts: "Nomenclature of Titles and Posts"; "Nomenclature of the Societies of Mutual Aid"; "Notice on Selling and Buying Titles and Posts in Tonkin."
Below is a brief description of the book by the publisher:
Les trois études comprises dans ce recueil présentent l'immense intérêt d'avoir été menées au contact direct de la réalité villageoise de la première moitié du XX ciècle. À l'aide d'informations concrètes puisées dans son village, l'auteur montre ce qu'étaient la hiérarchie des titres et fonctions, la vraie nature des sociétés d'entraide et la pratique de vendre des emplois, des exemptions de charge et des dignités honorifiques. C'est une vision saisissante de l'intérieur d'un village.
Congratulations to Nguyễn Văn Nguyên and Philippe Papin on another great contribution to Vietnamese studies!
_____________________________________________
Olga Dror
https://tamu.academia.edu/OlgaDror
Dept. of History,
103D M. Glasscock Bld.,
Texas A&M University,
College Station, TX 77843-4236
Fax : 979-862-4314
e-mail : olgadror@tamu.edu
Dept. webpage: http://history.tamu.edu/faculty/dror.shtml
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