Second letter D in Vietnamese alphabet
From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 1:56 PM
I have a couple of questions about the letter -d (or -D) in
Vietnamese... Are there other languages that have a second d in their
alphabets?
Also, were there attempts in the past to replace it with z or
something else? One example I can think of is Truong Dinh Dzu, the
peace candidate that ran against Thieu in the RVN's 1967 election. I
take it that he added z to his first name so people that didn't read
Vietnamese could say it correctly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truong_Dinh_Dzu
In his book on the Mekong Delta, Pierre Brocheux replaces all the -Ds
in personal names with Zs, apparently to help readers distinguish the
two spellings. (Vietnamese words in the book don't carry diacritical
marks.) Are you aware of any similar attempts to work around this
little problem?
Happy weekend,
~Tuan
--
Tuan Hoang, PhD Candidate
Department of History
University of Notre Dame
----------
From: Judith Henchy
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Tuan,
Võ Khắc Thiệu edited a journal called Zân Báo in the early 1930s.
Best,
Judith
----------
From: Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 2:03 PM
Dear Tuan:
I will be publishing a book that does not include diacritics. I will be writing Dzung to refer to a young woman named Dung. I don't want my readers to think of buffalo dung when reading about her!
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
----------
From: Adam Fforde @ UoM
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 2:21 PM
I think Welsh written with Latin letters is an example you seek. They use a
double f to write an f and a single f to write a v - thus Afon is Avon (maps
that use both languages call the river the Afon Afon as the word simply
means river). Putting it this way seems designed to enmerder the English ...
They have a dd and a d but I leave it to an expert to explain the
difference. Ll is a 'hl' and l isn't.
Adam
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From: Nguyen-Vo, Thu-Huong
Date: 2009/2/6
But what to do when southern pronunciation of "d" (as in the woman's name) would not be like "z" but like "y" as in "young?"
nvth
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From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 3:11 PM
Thanks, Hue Tam, Adam, and Judith. Adam, I just saw that the Welsh
DD pronounces like "th" (as in "the"). Hue Tam, wise choice on adding
Z to Dung!
In Vietnam War courses, my little mantra to undergrads used to be:
"There are two Ds in Vietnamese, the first sounds like Z and the
second sounds like D." Not surprisingly, they looked back in
puzzlement. Luckily, course readings have few personal Vietnamese
names starting with the first D: Diem and Le Duan are just about it.
Most of the rest sound like the English D: Pham Van Dong, Thich Quang
Duc, Da Nang, Dong Da, and so on.
~Tuan
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From: Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Date: 2009/2/6
Good question, especially since the woman in question was southern and thus would have been called "yoom." I just could not see myself writing Yoom. :-)
Hue-Tam
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From: Jean Michaud
Date: 2009/2/6
While we are on tn this issue of "Đ/đ" here's one example of the snag one has to circumvent while trying to write in English about the Dao minority (as spelled in Vietnam), a group otherwise known as Yao outside of Vietnam. In this text, designed for a broad audience, I wanted to warn the non-Vietnam specialist English speaking readership about the problem and came up with this compromise:
" In Vietnamese, the spelling Dao contributes to a lasting confusion among Vietnamese and non-Vietnamese experts alike. This is due to discrepancies between the Roman alphabet and its 17th century, Vietnamese adaptation devised by early French missionaries, known as quoc ngu (the "national language"). In quoc ngu, letters "D/d" are different from letters "Đ/đ," the latter representing the hard "d" as in English. "D/d" in Vietnamese is pronounced in two different ways depending on regional dialectical penchant. In the south of Vietnam, it pronounces like "y" in English, thus rendering the official Vietnamese name Dao as "Yao," fitting the usual pronunciation of this ethnonym outside Vietnam. However, ethnologists working on the Yao are based chiefly in the north of Vietnam, where "D/d" reads like "z" in English. So there, the official ethnonym Dao pronounces "Zao." This disparity, combined with the prominent position northern ethnologists occupy as producers of scientific knowledge on minorities in Vietnam, explains why in publications abroad that are based on Vietnamese ethnology, from anthropology books to development reports or international tourist guidebooks, the ethnonym is spelled variously as Dao (and thus mistakenly pronounced with a hard "d" by Western readership), Zao, or even, Dzao, all equally incorrect. "Yao" would be preferable."
Michaud, Jean, 2006 Historical Dictionary of the Peoples of the Southeast Asian Massif. Lanham (MD), Scarecrow Press.
Jean Michaud
Université Laval
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From: Daniel C. Tsang
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 4:35 PM
I searched a full-text news database, Access World News, and it came back with 1685 citations to Dzung, while asking me if I really meant Dung!
The breakdown of "Dzung"
by Year
* 2009 (14)
* 2008 (43)
* 2007 (77)
* 2006 (137)
* 2005 (543)
* 2004 (185)
* 2003 (54)
* 2002 (62)
* 2001 (51)
* 2000 (54)
* 1999 (45)
* 1998 (39)
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* 1996 (26)
* 1995 (31)
* 1994 (24)
* 1993 (22)
* 1992 (28)
* 1991 (58)
* 1990 (50)
* 1989 (8)
* 1988 (16)
* 1987 (9)
* 1986 (31)
* 1985 (42)
* 1984 (6)
* 1979 (1)
* View 23 more
by Location
* Africa (1)
* Asia (599)
* Australia/Oceania (78)
* Europe/UK (27)
* Middle East (16)
* North America (964)
* View 2 more
by Source
* Vietnam News Briefs (Vietnam) (365)
* Thai Press Reports (Thailand) (176)
* San Jose Mercury News (CA) (61)
* Orange County Register, The (Santa Ana, CA) (47)
* Times-Picayune, The (New Orleans, LA) (45)
* Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (WI) (40)
* Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) (33)
* San Diego Union-Tribune, The (CA) (33)
* Washington Post, The (DC) (30)
* Orlando Sentinel, The (FL) (25)
* Salt Lake Tribune, The (UT) (17)
* InfoProd (Israel) (16)
* Oklahoman, The (Oklahoma City, OK) (15)
* Reporter, The (Vacaville, CA) (15)
* New York Times, The (NY) (13)
* San Francisco Chronicle (CA) (13)
* Columbus Dispatch, The (OH) (13)
* Sydney Morning Herald, The (Australia) (12)
* Peoria Journal Star, The (IL) (12)
* Fresno Bee, The (CA) (12)
* Age, The/The Sunday Age (Melbourne, Australia) (12)
* Fort Worth Star-Telegram (TX) (12)
* Houston Chronicle (TX) (11)
* Record-Journal (Meriden, CT) (11)
* Sun Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale, FL) (11)
* Chicago Tribune (IL) (10)
* Daily Telegraph/Sunday Telegraph/Sunday Telegraph Magazine (Sydney, Australia) (10)
* Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) (10)
* Dallas Morning News, The (TX) (10)
* Post-Standard, The (Syracuse, NY) (10)
* Republican, The (Springfield, MA) (9)
* Boston Globe, The (MA) (9)
* Seattle Times, The (WA) (9)
* Deutsche Press-Agentur (9)
* St. Petersburg Times (FL) (9)
* Commercial Appeal, The (Memphis, TN) (8)
* Hartford Courant, The (CT) (8)
* Intelligencer Journal (Lancaster, PA) (8)
* Miami Herald, The (FL) (8)
* Borneo Bulletin (Brunei Darussalam) (8)
* San Mateo County Times (CA) (8)
* Tri-Valley Herald (Pleasanton, CA) (7)
* Daily Herald (Arlington Heights, IL) (7)
* Alameda Times-Star (CA) (7)
* Argus, The (Fremont-Newark, CA) (7)
* Morning Call, The (Allentown, PA) (7)
* Oregonian, The (Portland, OR) (7)
* Oakland Tribune, The (CA) (7)
* Ventura County Star (CA) (7)
* Daily Review, The (Hayward, CA) (7)
* Tampa Tribune, The (FL) (7)
* Saigon Times Daily, The/Saigon Times Magazine (Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam) (7)
* Newsday (Long Island, NY) (7)
* Day, The (New London, CT) (7)
* Wichita Eagle, The (KS) (6)
* Charlotte Observer (NC) (6)
* Columbian, The (Vancouver, WA) (6)
* Sunday News (Lancaster, PA) (5)
* Queensland Regional Publications (Australia) (5)
* Grand Rapids Press, The (MI) (5)
* Norwich Bulletin (CT) (5)
* Worcester Telegram & Gazette (MA) (5)
* Long Beach Press-Telegram (CA) (5)
* Post-Tribune (IN) (5)
* Australian, The/Weekend Australian/Australian Magazine, The (Australia) (5)
* Seattle Post-Intelligencer (WA) (5)
* Straits Times, The (includes Sunday Times and Business Times) (Singapore) (5)
* Toronto Star, The (Ontario, Canada) (5)
* Austin American-Statesman (TX) (5)
* New Straits Times (Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia) (5)
* Tulsa World (OK) (5)
* Victoria Community Publications - Leader Group (Australia) (5)
* Detroit Free Press (MI) (5)
* New Haven Register (CT) (5)
* Herald Sun/Sunday Herald Sun/Home Magazine (Melbourne, Australia) (5)
* Asia Pulse (5)
* News-Times, The (Danbury, CT) (5)
* Bernama: The Malaysian National News Agency (Malaysia) (4)
* Rocky Mountain News (Denver, CO) (4)
* Arlington Morning News (TX) (4)
* Press-Enterprise, The (Riverside, CA) (4)
* Star-Ledger, The (Newark, NJ) (4)
* Journal Inquirer (Manchester, CT) (4)
* Financial Times (London, England) (4)
* Bucks County Courier Times (Levittown, PA) (4)
* Bangkok Post (Thailand) (4)
* Amarillo Globe-News (TX) (4)
* Beacon News, The (Aurora, IL) (4)
* Courier Mail, The/Sunday Mail, The/QWeekend Magazine (Brisbane, Australia) (4)
* Lancaster New Era (PA) (4)
* Advocate, The (Baton Rouge, LA) (3)
* York Daily Record/York Sunday News (PA) (3)
* Buffalo News, The (NY) (3)
* Fayetteville Observer, The (NC) (3)
* King County Journal (includes The Eastside Journal and South County Journal) (Bellevue, WA) (3)
* Sacramento Bee, The (CA) (3)
* EFE News Services (Spanish version) (3)
* Xinhua News Agency (China) (3)
* M2 Presswire (3)
* Connecticut Post (CT) (3)
* View 96 more
by Source Type
* Newspapers (1,085)
* Newswires (599)
* Newsletters (1)
Daniel C. Tsang
Social Science Data Librarian
Bibliographer for Asian American Studies, Economics, Political Science & Business (acting)
----------
From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 8:31 AM
Thanks for all the answers to my questions. The topic is more
interesting than I'd thought, and more complicated. On people
spelling their names as Dzung, two came to my mind: Dzung Saigon, a
popular writer of fiction about urban teenagers (tuoi moi lon) during
the RVN period; and Vie^.t Dzung~, the former songwriter-singer and
now a MC for an overseas entertainment video production (not Paris By
Night). Dan Tsang's post suggests that there are more of them out
there.
Jean Michaud's preference for Yao for the minority Dao group sounds
plausible to me. When it comes to individuals and personal names,
though, I'd suspect that Vietnamese in all regions would be less
enthusiastic about substituting Y for the soft D. For a southern
woman named Dung, as Thu Huong suggested, Yung may be a better choice,
phonetically speaking. But most Vietnamese with the name would
probably shy from Yung because it looks too Chinese. The only Dung
who spells her name with Y that I'm aware of, is Yung Krall, memorist
and a former CIA spy and author of the memoir. Coincidentally, her
spying mission had something to do with Truong Dinh Hung, the son of
Truong Dinh Dzu. It's rare enough to find a Vietnamese who altered
the letter D in her or his name. The chance must be one-in-a-million
that two of them had something to do with each other.
We haven't even got into the compound GI, the equivalent to the soft
D... For a minute, let's imagine (1) the letter -d/-D is eliminated
from the Vietnamese alphabet, (2) the remaining d/D is pronounced just
like in English and French, and (3) all words that start with d/D are
switched to gi/GI. For examples, gia'o du.c (education) would be
gia'o giu.c, and Le Duan is spelled as Le Giuan. Not bad so far. On
the other hand, di` (aunt) would be gii` and Ngo Dinh Diem becomes Ngo
Dinh Giiem: too weird to the eye to take.
Now I've begun to see why there have been two letters Ds in the
alphabet. Ah, chu*~ quo^'c ngu*~!
----------
From: Bradley Davis
Date: 2009/2/8
On the subject of the pronunciation of certain words in Vietnam:
As Jean Michaud points out, most people classified as 'Dao' in Vietnam refer to themselves as 'Yao' when speaking Vietnamese (tieng pho thong/tieng ta). This has to do with how the Chu with the Han Viet reading of 'Dao' is pronounced in Dao languages. But, when not speaking the national language, Y/Dao people in Vietnam use a variety of terms (Mien, Mun, etc) rather than the long-standing State ethnonym of choice. Particularities of Vietnamese and Chinese history and waves of Y/Dao migration led to a general category of 'Man' subjects in Nguyen Dai Nam, although the term Dao was a small subgroup within Man that appeared in several provinces of the Dong Khanh Geography (Dong Khanh Dia Du Chi), and despite the widespread use of 'Yao' to administratively indicate a non-Han community in China. Officially, the SRV repudiated the use of words like Man and 'Meo' for persons from communities that fall under the Yao-Hmong ethnolinguistic classification. But in terms of the often epithetical reality, 'Man' and 'Meo,' as terms for people, still exist in speech.
Bradley Davis
Adjunct Instructor
Eastern Wahington University
US
----------
From: Tai VanTa
Date: 2009/2/9
I would consider this discussion of Dung (soft D ) and whether to eliminate it and substitute it by Gi as indicative of two phenomena:
1) The failure to see that D is different from Đ , in Vietnamese. To add z to D to form the strange non-alphabet of Vietnamese, Dz, with the intention to tell the foreigner to pronounce it correctly is a little distortion of the Vietnamese language and writing . Would the German tell the foreigners how to pronouce the u umlaut by writing it differently the u with two dots on it? Why not let the foreigners lêarn to pronounce the Vietnamêse d as the real Vietnamese d (without distorting it into dz) , and to promounce Đ as the Vietnamese strong Đ, the same way tthey have to learn the umlaut in Gêrman language? or to learn to pronounce , in German, the w as v and the z as s, as Wolgang Amedeus Mozart
2) The failure to distinguish the the correct pronunciation (in the Northern accent, supposedly to be the original, undiluted Vietamese) of D as different from Gi, in the pronunciation according to the Northern accent (D is sofl, and Gi is stronger in which you round your lips and curl your tongue) and the usual different meaning that goes with the different pronunciation of D and Gi. .
If we have to tell the foreigners the correct pronunciation, by changing the writing, then how do you tell them that in Northern accent, when they hear "Biết dồi" (Hanoi accent) it means "Biết rồi" ( I knew it).
So much for talking with you guys like the medieval monks who discuss how many angels can dance on the tip of the needle.
Just a joke,. Please do not be offended.
Tai Van Ta
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From: Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Date: 2009/2/8
Dear Tai,
I will not be putting diacritics in my book. I am sure purists will be offended, but the book is expected to reach a larger audience (as per the acquisition editor).
Can I write in my book "every time you read Dung, please remember to pronounce it Yoom and not dung as in cow dung?" Is it realistic? And what's with the northern accent being the original undiluted Vietnamese? Why should readers care? Everybody around her called her Yoom. I use Dzung because Yoom looks too strange and there is already a convention to put a Z after a D to indicate that the word should not be pronounced with a hard D.
As I began learning Vietnamese only around the age of 10, I found it very helpful to mix southern and northern pronunciations to achieve accurate spelling. I am finding that some newsreaders on Vietnamese TV do the same.
Hue-Tam
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From: Chung Nguyen
Date: 2009/2/8
I think there are two separate issues under discussion:
1) Permanently modify the Vietnamese language spelling itself
2) Temporarily change the spelling for a foreign language audience in a non-Vietnamese text.
I agree with anh Tai 100%: no need to change it to make it more convenient for non-native speakers. But chi Tam's solution is perfectly reasonable, for it's only temporary in a non-Vietnamese setting.
As the Vietnamese would be wont to say, "Noi nao vung nay" (Each pot has its own lid); let's not put the Vietnamese spelling on the same Procrustean block.
-Chung
UMASS Boston
Sent: Mon 2/9/2009 1:44 AM
To: taivanta@yahoo.com; Vietnam Studies Group
1) The failure to see that D is different from D , in Vietnamese. To add z to D to form the strange non-alphabet of Vietnamese, Dz, with the intention to tell the foreigner to pronounce it correctly is a little distortion of the Vietnamese language and writing . Would the German tell the foreigners how to pronouce the u umlaut by writing it differently the u with two dots on it? Why not let the foreigners lêarn to pronounce the Vietnamêse d as the real Vietnamese d (without distorting it into dz) , and to promounce D as the Vietnamese strong D, the same way tthey have to learn the umlaut in Gêrman language? or to learn to pronounce , in German, the w as v and the z as s, as Wolgang Amedeus Mozart
If we have to tell the foreigners the correct pronunciation, by changing the writing, then how do you tell them that in Northern accent, when they hear "Bi?t d?i" (Hanoi accent) it means "Bi?t r?i" ( I knew it).
----------
From: Adam Fforde @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
Date: 2009/2/8
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
But only if you know there is a problem can you be careful … the biggest problem is when you don't know there is a problem … So how these issues are dealt with depends on more than just the formal writing system.
Once I know that somebody from Quang Tri says a 'huyen' when his Hanoi cousin has a 'nang', and a 'nang' when the Hanoian has a 'hoi', then I know what he means when I hear him say 'above there is the lover and below there is fear' ('O tren co Bo, o duoi co Co'). Given the need for any written language to cope with variation, this seems inevitable, which means surely that the Gods are right to be laughing? Khong du dau!
Adam
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From: Tai VanTa
Date: 2009/2/8
Anh Chung,
You suggest a great compromise.
Now I offer another joke:
If one wants to abandon the traditional fine distinction in Vietnamese language between two different spellings of a word/or sound, "chung" as distingushed from "trung" and lump together different meanings into one spelling, say "chung" , to make it easier for people to learn Vietnamese writing, would you prefer the first sentence (1) which is the traditional spelling; or (2) the second sentence which is the suggested simplified,easier-to-pronounce-for-foreigner spelling.
(1) Anh Chung đua ra giải pháp trung dung, thật là người bạn rất trung (translation: Mr. CHung offering a compromise is really a loyal friend)
(2) Anh Chung đưa ra giải pháp chung dzung, thật là ngưới bạn rất chung (Mr. Chung offering a compromise is indeed a rather common friend)
If refinement and distinction is the hallmarks of scientific advance, I would venture here that the ones who invented the TRADITIONAL chữ quốc ngữ were really scientific linguists.
Ta Van Tai
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From: Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Date: 2009/2/8
Southerners would not mix up trung and chung. However, I did have one female classmate whose name was spelled Kim Lang, poor girl. She got teased mercilessly with invocations straight from the Tale of Kieu: "Oi Kim Lang, hoi Kim Lang, thoi thoi thiep da phu chang tu day."
Hue-Tam
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From: Adam Fforde @ UoM
Date: 2009/2/8
Perhaps the practical effectiveness of Quoc Ngu in expressing refinement and distinction so suited to the delights of Vietnamese varieties is suggestive?
I find myself pondering - perhaps either the inventers were truly in tune, from their armchairs, with the then zeitgeists, or rather, as this thread seems to be showing and perhaps we learn from Wiki, that 'errors were corrected' through a normal process of 'convergent and rather open discussion' that included rather a wide range of people? is this not familiar? What might it suggest to us about different cultural perceptions of 'error'?
And, may this suggest a tendency to philosophical positionings that dance around the view that 'what is perfect is what works'?
Quoc Ngu certainly works across a wide range of pronunciations and usages.
Can one imagine just how the Vietnamese would set about rectifying spelling? the Dutch manage to, I understand, on a regular and organised basis. The English could not.
Surely there would be as much loud discussion as if a range of representatives of various Christian groups were asked to agree exactly what they meant, and so what should be agreed to be taught, by 'creative design' ??? Yet the cultural 'way' of the Vietnamese would surely suggest that we should expect convergence, of a sort, and with loud mutterings ... , whilst the other example cited would not ... ???
So much from so little ... ("Second letter D in Vietnamese alphabet") ... :)
Adam
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From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Very true, Chung. My initial concern is (2) and, well, it looks like
there are a few choices out there, each with its own logic and
rationale.
As for (1), it's a vast topic with probably a long history. One
person that wanted to reform modern spellings that I'm aware of, is
Nguien Ngu I: journalist, poet, and, literally, madman. I'm not sure
the details of his proposal. But judging from his various pen names,
he seemed to hold something against y/Y and prefer f/F over the
compound ph/PH. A move towards simplication, perhaps?
http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyễn_Ngu_Í
~Tuan
--------------------
From: Joseph Hannah
Date: Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:39 AM
Dear VSGers,
My two cents on this topic are informed by my experiences with my wife
and her father, a northern Vietnamese who migrated south in '54. He,
like some others in Vietnam, argue for a "proper" or "correct"
pronunciation that is, in fact, none of the regional pronunciations
that exist today. In his "proper" Vietnamese, each of the consents and
vowel combinations are distinct and purposeful. Hence:
-- the soft D is pronounced as an American "y"
-- the hard D (with the line through it) is "D"
-- the "gi" is "z" (or more correctly, "zh")
-- "v" is "v" (as northerners say it)
-- r is r (slightly rolled - as southerners say it)
-- one can hear all three vowels in the diphthong "ieu," and it
sounds very different than "uu' "
-- etc.....
He will maintain that these pronunciations are more correct, and
adhere more closely with the way things have been pronounced in the
past -- hence they all have their own symbolic representation in quoc
ngu. In my cynical and imaginative way, I have often wondered if these
"correct" pronunciations are maybe a "back reading" on the symbols,
i.e., a re-imagining the pronunciations of the past based on the way
quoc ngu has represented them. Another "chicken or egg" dilemma, I
suppose.
An interesting note from my own experience: It seems to me that the
closest accent to this "correct" translation seems to be '54 migrants
to Saigon. In very blatant examples of language politics, post '54
northern speech is (or at least was) derided by this group as being
incorrect, illiterate, uncultured, etc., partly because of accent
changes (in both north and south) and partly because of a massively
changed vocabulary under the Marxist-inspired education system in the
North.
I can't wait for the definitive book on Vietnamese language politics
to come out -- anyone working on this project?
Cheers,
Joe Hannah
--------------------
From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:59 PM
Correction: It wasn't Dzung Saigon but Dung Saigon. I'd meant to say
Dzung~ -Dakao, a popular fictional character from Duyen Anh who wrote
many stories about teenagers.
Joe: The letter Y is something else, an easy cause for
mispronunciation among non-Vietnamese speakers. My favorite example
is Ye^'n, the not uncommon Vietnamese personal name whose
pronounciation is close to Ian, the male first name in English. When
Anglicized as Yen, it is expectedly pronounced like the Japanese
currency.
~Tuan
--------------------
From: Dieu-Hien t. Hoang
Date: Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:26 PM
There is also Yung Krall, author of the biography "A Thousand Years Falling." I have no doubt her birth name was Dung. This is the only instance where I have seen the name Dung anglicized in the southern Vietnamese accent.
----
Hoang t. Dieu-Hien
University of Washington Tacoma