Embedded Files
Why is this a paradox? It's paradoxical because today's Mexico has, in effect, two presidents. And among those two presidents, it is not Peña Nieto who Espinoza and I were planning to see as we'd spoken in whispered code upstairs. It is not he who necessitated weeks of clandestine planning. Instead, it's a man of about my age, though absent any human calculus that may provide us a sense of anchored commonality.
They call him El Chapo. Or "Shorty." Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera. The same El Chapo Guzman who only two months earlier had humiliated the Peña Nieto government and stunned the world with his extraordinary escape from Altiplano maximum-security prison through an impeccably engineered mile-long tunnel.
I took some comfort in a unique aspect of El Chapo's reputation among the heads of drug cartels in Mexico: that, unlike many of his counterparts who engage in gratuitous kidnapping and murder, El Chapo is a businessman first, and only resorts to violence when he deems it advantageous to himself or his business interests. It was on the strength of the Sinaloa cartel's seemingly more calculated strategies (a cartel whose famous face is El Chapo, but also includes the co-leadership of Ismael "El Mayo" Zambada) that Sinaloa had become dominant among Mexico's criminal syndicates,
With Kate translating, I begin to explain my intentions. I felt increasingly that I had arrived as a curiosity to him. The lone gringo among my colleagues, who'd ridden on the coattails of El Chapo's faith in Kate. I felt his amusement as I put my cards on the table. He asks about my relationship with the late Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez with what seems to be a probing of my willingness to be vilified through associations.
I speak to our friendship in a way that seems to pass an intuitive litmus test measuring the independence of my perspective. I tell him, up front, that I had a family member who worked with the Drug Enforcement Agency, that through my work in Haiti (I'm CEO of J/P HRO, a nongovernmental organization based in Port-au-Prince) I had many relationships inside the United States government. I assure him that those relationships were by no means related to my interest in him. My only interest was to ask questions and deliver his responses, to be weighed by readers, whether in balance or contempt.
Throughout my introduction, Chapo smiles a warm smile. In fact, in what would be a seven-hour sit-down, I saw him without that smile only in brief flashes. As has been said of many notorious men, he has an indisputable charisma. When I ask about his dynamic with the Mexican government, he pauses. "Talking about politicians, I keep my opinion to myself. They go do their thing and I do mine."
"How much money will you make writing this article?" he asks. I answer that when I do journalism, I take no payment. I could see that, to him, the idea of doing any kind of work without payment is a fool's game. Unlike the gangsters we're used to, the John Gotti's who claimed to be simple businessmen hiding behind numerous international front companies, El Chapo sticks to an illicit game, proudly volunteering, "I supply more heroin, methamphetamine, cocaine and marijuana than anybody else in the world. I have a fleet of submarines, airplanes, trucks and boats."
He is entirely unapologetic. Against the challenges of doing business in such a clandestine industry he has ––built an empire.
I'm curious, in the current pandemonium of the Middle East, what impact those frenzied opiate economies may have on his business. I ask him, "Of all the countries and cultures with whom you do business, which is the most difficult?" Smiling, he shakes his head and says an unequivocal "None." There is no politician who could answer the same question so clearly or successfully, but then again, the challenges are quite different for a global power broker who simply removes any obstacle to "difficulties."
Having explained my intention, I ask if he would grant two days for a formal interview. My colleagues would be leaving in the morning but I offer to stay behind to record our conversations. He pauses before responding. He says, "I just met you. I will do it in eight days. Can you come back in eight days?" I say I can. I ask to take a photograph together so that I could verify to my editors at Rolling Stone that the planned meeting had taken place. "Adelante," he says. We all rise from the table as a group and follow Chapo into one of the bungalows. Once inside, we see the first sign of heavy arms. An M16 lies on a couch opposite the neutral white wall against which we would take the photograph. I explain that, for authentication purposes, it would be best if we are shaking hands, looking into the camera, but not smiling. He obliges. The picture is taken on Alfredo's cellphone. It would be sent to me at a later date.
Despite that, I'm feeling frustrated at having to wait eight days to get him in a corner – to ask everything I think the world wants to know. I feel naked without pen and paper. So I only ask questions one couldn't forget the answers to. Did you know Pablo Escobar? Chapo answers, "Yes, I met him once at his house. Big house." He smiles. See your mother much? "All the time. I hoped we would meet at my ranch and you could meet my mother. She knows me better than I do. But something came up and we had to change the plan." I assume he was insinuating inside information that the ranch had again come under observation by authorities.
So I board a flight later that evening on my own, and return to Los Angeles.
In the weeks that follow, I continue to make attempts to contact El Chapo. In that time, massive sweeps by military and law enforcement lead to hundreds of arrests, seizures and several extraditions of cartel personnel to the United States. Reports that a rising drug gang, the CJNG (Jalisco New Generation Cartel), may have been involved with El Chapo's prison escape and that CJNG may become, in effect, the paramilitary wing of the Sinaloa cartel, have added to governmental concerns. In other words, with the water boiling, our cartel intermediaries had gone principally off radar, or possibly been arrested, or killed.
Finally, Kate is able to re-establish contact through a web of BBM devices. But the heat of enforcement and surveillance had become extreme. I even received a credible tip that the DEA had indeed become aware of our journey to Mexico. Booking any flight to Mexico now would surely raise red flags. I make a plan to hide myself in the trunk of a friend's car and be driven to a waiting rental vehicle. I would then drive the rental from L.A. to Yuma, Arizona, then cross the border at Algodones. I'm familiar with this crossing – papers are not checked, and vehicles are waved through without scrutiny.
Interview with El Chapo 17 minutes
TRADUCCION AL ESPANOL
¿Por qué es esto una paradoja? Es paradójico, ya que el México de hoy tiene, en efecto, dos presidentes. Y entre los dos presidentes, no es Peña Nieto a quien Espinoza y yo planeábamos ver como lo habíamos hablado en código susurrado al subir la escalera. No es él quien requería semanas de planificación clandestina. En su lugar, se trata de un hombre de aproximadamente mi edad, aunque ausente de cualquier cálculo humano que nos pueda proporcionar un sentido de homogeneidad común.
Le llaman El Chapo. O "Shorty". Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera. El mismo El Chapo Guzmán que sólo dos meses antes había humillado al gobierno de Peña Nieto y sorprendió al mundo con su extraordinario escape de la cárcel de máxima seguridad del Altiplano a través de un impecablemente diseñado de milla de largo túnel.
Me tomó un poco de consuelo en un aspecto único de El Chapo, su reputación de entre los jefes de los carteles de la droga en México: que, a diferencia de muchos de sus contrapartes que participan en secuestros y asesinatos gratuitos, El Chapo es un empresario primero, y sólo recurre a la violencia cuando lo estima conveniente para sí mismo o para sus intereses comerciales. Fue en la fortaleza del cártel de Sinaloa de sus aparentemente más calculadas estrategias (un cártel cuyo rostro famoso es el de El Chapo, pero también incluye el co-liderazgo de Ismael "El Mayo" Zambada), con lo que Sinaloa se ha vuelto dominante entre las organizaciones criminales de México
Con Kate traduciendo, empiezo a explicar mis intenciones. Me sentí cada vez más que yo me había convertido como una curiosidad para él. El gringo solitario entre mis colegas, quien había cabalgado en el faldón de la fe El Chapo en Kate. Sentí su diversión al poner mis cartas sobre la mesa. Me pregunta sobre mi relación con el difunto presidente venezolano Hugo Chávez, con lo que parece ser un sondaje de mi voluntad de ser envilecido por conducto de las asociaciones.
Hablo de nuestra amistad, de una manera que parece pasar una prueba de tornasol intuitivo para medir la independencia de mi perspectiva. Yo le digo, por adelantado, que yo tenía un miembro de mi familia que trabajó con la Drug Enforcement Agency, que a través de mi trabajo en Haití (Soy CEO de J/P HRO, una organización no gubernamental con sede en Port-au-Prince), he tenido muchas relaciones dentro del gobierno de los Estados Unidos. Le puedo asegurar que esas relaciones no estaban en absoluto relacionadas con mi interés en él. Mi único interés es hacer preguntas y entregar sus respuestas, para ser valoradas por los lectores, ya sea en el balance o el desprecio.
A lo largo de mi introducción, Chapo sonríe una cálida sonrisa. De hecho, en lo que sería una junta de siete horas, le he visto sin esa sonrisa sólo en breves destellos. Como se ha dicho de muchos hombres notorios, él tiene un carisma indiscutible. Cuando le pregunté acerca de su dinámica con el gobierno mexicano, hace una pausa. "Hablando de políticos, mantengo mi opinión a mí mismo. Ellos hacen sus cosas y yo hago las mías".
"Cuánto dinero podrás ganar por escribir este artículo?", pregunta. Yo respondo que cuando hago periodismo, no acepto pago. Pude ver que, para él, la idea de hacer cualquier tipo de trabajo sin pago es un timo. A diferencia de los gánsteres que estamos acostumbrados, el John Gotti quien afirmaba ser simple empresarios escondiéndose detrás de numerosas organizaciones internacionales, empresas de fachada, El Chapo se aferra a un juego ilícito, al que orgullosamente es del voluntariado, "Yo suministro más heroína, metanfetamina, cocaína y marihuana que nadie en el mundo. Tengo una flota de submarinos, aviones, camiones y barcos".
Él es totalmente desdeñoso. Frente a los desafíos de hacer negocios en esa industria clandestina él ha construido un imperio.
Estoy curioso, en el pandemonio actual del Oriente Medio, ¿qué impacto de esas economías opiáceas frenéticas pueden tener en su negocio. Yo le pregunto, "de todos los países y todas las culturas con quién hace negocios, cuál es el más difícil?". Sonriente, sacude su cabeza y dice con un rotundo "Ninguno". No hay ningún político que podría responder a la misma pregunta tan claramente o correctamente, pero nuevamente, los retos son bastante diferentes para una potencia mundial intermediaria que simplemente elimina cualquier obstáculo a "dificultades".
Habiendo explicado mi intención, le pregunto si me va a conceder dos días para una entrevista formal. Mis colegas estarían yéndose por la mañana, pero me ofrezco a quedarme para grabar nuestras conversaciones. Hace una pausa antes de responder. Él dice, "Lo acabo de conocer. Lo haré en ocho días. Puede regresar en ocho días?". Contesto que si puedo. Le pido que tomemos una fotografía juntos, así que yo puEda comprobar a mis editores en Rolling Stone que la proyectada reunión había tenido lugar. "Adelante", dice. Todos nos levantamos de la mesa como grupo y seguimos el Chapo a uno de los bungalows. Una vez dentro, vemos el primer indicio de armas grueso calibre. Un M16 está en un sofá frente a la pared blanca neutral en el que nos tomaríamos la fotografía. Me explican que, para propósitos de autenticación, sería mejor si nos estamos estrechando manos, mirando a la cámara, pero no sonriendo. Él acepta. La imagen está tomada por el celular de Alfredo. Sería enviada a mí en una fecha posterior.
A pesar de ello, me siento frustrado por tener que esperar ocho días para obtenerla, para preguntarle - creo - lo que todo el mundo quiere saber. Me siento desnudo sin lápiz y papel. Así que sólo me pregunto las preguntas que uno no podría olvidar las respuestas. Conoció usted que Pablo Escobar? El Chapo responde, "Sí, lo conocí una vez en su casa. Casa Grande". Él sonríe. Ve a su madre con frecuencia? "Todo el tiempo. Yo esperaba que viniera mi rancho y usted podría conocer a mi madre. Ella me conoce mejor que yo. Pero algo salió y tuvimos que cambiar el plan". Supongo que el insinuaba dentro de la información que el rancho de nuevo estaba bajo observación por parte de las autoridades.
Así que me embarque en un vuelo más tarde esa noche por mi cuenta y a regresé a Los Ángeles.
En las semanas que siguen, continúe haciendo intentos para contactar con El Chapo. En ese tiempo, enormes barridos por fuerzas militares y policiales llevaron a cientos de arrestos, incautaciones y varias extradiciones del personal del cartel a los Estados Unidos. Los informes de que una banda de narcotraficantes en crecimiento, el CJNG (Jalisco Nueva Generación cartel), puede haber estado involucrado en la fuga de la prisión con El Chapo y que CJNG puede convertirse, en efecto, en el ala paramilitar del cártel de Sinaloa, se han añadido a las preocupaciones del Gobierno. En otras palabras, con el agua hirviendo, nuestros intermediarios del cártel se habían salido del alcance del radar, o posiblemente fueren detenidos o asesinados.
Por último, Kate es capaz de volver a establecer el contacto a través de una red de dispositivos de BBM. Pero el calor de la búsqueda y la vigilancia se ha extremado. Incluso he recibido una sugerencia creíble de que la DEA sabe del hecho de nuestro viaje a México. Reservar en cualquier vuelo a México ahora seguramente levantará banderas rojas. Quiero hacer un plan para ocultarme en el maletero de un coche de un amigo y ser conducidos a un vehículo de alquiler en espera. Conduciría luego el auto rentado de L.A. a Yuma, Arizona, luego cruzar la frontera en Algodones. Estoy familiarizado con este cruce - los papeles no son revisados y los vehículos no se registran.
Actor, escritor y director Sean Penn ha escrito desde las líneas del frente en Haití, Irak, Irán, Venezuela y Cuba. Él desea dedicar este artículo a los padres de los jóvenes de Chicago inmolado, y Rodrigo Lara Bonilla, servidor público, padre y héroe.
Nota
Según López Dóriga, periodista del sistema mexicano, Sean Penn no es periodista, lo cual es totalmente equivocado, como casi todo lo que acostumbra decir
¿Cómo fue tu infancia?
ver video en espanol
How was your childhood?
I remember from the time I was six until now, my parents, a very humble family, very poor, I remember how my mom made bread to support the family. I would sell it, I sold oranges, I sold soft drinks, I sold candy. My mom, she was a hard worker, she worked a lot. We grew corn, beans. I took care of my grandmother's cattle and chopped wood.
And how did you get involved in the drug business?
Well, from the time I was 15 and after, where I come from, which is the municipality of Badiraguato, I was raised in a ranch named La Tuna, in that area, and up until today, there are no job opportunities. The only way to have money to buy food, to survive, is to grow poppy, marijuana, and at that age, I began to grow it, to cultivate it and to sell it. That is what I can tell you.
How did you leave there? How did it all expand?
From there, from my ranch, I started to leave at 18 and went to Culiacan, then after to Guadalajara, but never without visiting my ranch, even up until today, because my mom, thanks to God, is still alive, out there in our ranch, which is La Tuna, and so, that is how things have been.
How has your family life changed from then to now?
Very good – my children, my brothers, my nephews. We all get along well, very normal. Very good.
And now that you are free, how has it affected you?
Well, as for being free – happy, because freedom is really nice, and pressure, well, for me it's normal, because I've had to be careful for a few years now in certain cities, and, no, I don't feel anything that hurts my health or my mind. I feel good.
Is it true what they say that drugs destroy humanity and bring harm?
Well, it's a reality that drugs destroy. Unfortunately, as I said, where I grew up there was no other way and there still isn't a way to survive, no way to work in our economy to be able to make a living.
Do you think it is true you are responsible for the high level of drug addiction in the world?
No, that is false, because the day I don't exist, it's not going to decrease in any way at all. Drug trafficking? That's false.
Did your drug business grow and expand when you were in jail?
From what I can tell, and what I know, everything is the same. Nothing has decreased. Nothing has increased.
What about the violence attached to this type of activity?
In part, it is because already some people already grow up with problems, and there is some envy and they have information against someone else. That is what creates violence.
Do you consider yourself a violent person?
No, sir.
Are you prone to violence, or do you use it as a last resort?
Look, all I do is defend myself, nothing more. But do I start trouble? Never.
What is your opinion about the situation in Mexico, what is the outlook for Mexico?
Well, drug trafficking is already part of a culture that originated from the ancestors. And not only in Mexico. This is worldwide.
Do you consider your activity, your organization, a cartel?
No, sir, not at all. Because people who dedicate their lives to this activity do not depend on me.
How has this business evolved from the time you started up until today?
Big difference. Today there are lots of drugs, and back then, the only ones we knew were marijuana and poppy.
What is the difference in people now compared to back then?
Big difference, because now, day after day, villages are getting bigger, and there's more of us, and lots of different ways of thinking.
What is the outlook for the business? Do you think it will disappear? Will it grow instead?
No, it will not end because as time goes by, we are more people, and this will never end.
Do you think terrorism activities in the Middle East will, in any way, impact the future of drug trafficking?
No, sir. It doesn't make a difference at all.
You saw how the final days of Escobar were. How do you see your final days with respect to this business?
I know one day I will die. I hope it's of natural causes.
The U.S. government thinks that the Mexican government does not want to arrest you. What they want to do is to kill you. What do you think?
No, I think that if they find me, they'll arrest me, of course.
With respect to your activities, what do you think the impact on Mexico is? Do you think there is a substantial impact?
Not at all. Not at all.
Why?
Because drug trafficking does not depend on just one person. It depends on a lot of people.
What is your opinion about who is to blame here, those who sell drugs, or the people who use drugs and create a demand for them? What is the relationship between production, sale and consumption?
If there was no consumption, there would be no sales. It is true that consumption, day after day, becomes bigger and bigger. So it sells and sells.
We hear avocado is good for you, lime is good for you, guanabana is good for you. But we never hear anyone doing any publicity with respect to drugs. Have you done anything to induce the public to consume more drugs?
Not at all. That attracts attention. People, in a way, want to know how it feels or how it tastes. And then the addiction gets bigger.
Do you have any dreams? Do you dream?
Whatever is normal. But dreaming daily? No.
But you must have some dreams, some hopes for your life?
I want to live with my family the days God gives me.
If you could change the world, would you?
For me, the way things are, I'm happy.
How is your relationship with your mom?
My relationship? Perfect. Very well.
Is it one of respect?
Yes, sir, respect, affection and love.
How do you see the future for your sons and daughters?
Very well. They get along right. The family is tight.
How about your life? How has your life changed, how have you lived it since you escaped?
Lots of happiness – because of my freedom.
Did you ever use drugs?
No, sir. Many years ago, yes, I did try them. But an addict? No.
How long ago?
I haven't done any drugs in the last 20 years.
Did it not worry you that you might be putting your family at risk with your escape?
Yes, sir.
For your recent escape, did you pursue your freedom at any cost, at the expense of anybody?
I never thought of hurting anyone. All I did was ask God, and things worked out. Everything was perfect. I am here, thank God.
The two times you escaped, it is worth mentioning, there was no violence.
With me, it did not come to that. In other situations, what's been seen, things occur differently, but here, we did not use any violence.
Bearing in mind what has been written about you, what one can see on TV, things are said about you in Mexico, what kind of message would you like to convey to the people of Mexico?
Well, I can say it's normal that people have mixed feelings because some people know me and others don't. That is the reason I say it is normal. Because those who do not know me can have their doubts about saying if, in this case, I'm a good person or not.
If I ask you to define yourself as a person, if I ask you to pretend you are not Joaquín, instead you are the person who knows him better than anybody else in the world, how would you define yourself?
Well, if I knew him – with respect, and from my point of view, it's a person who's not looking for problems in any way. In any way.
Still, today, there are little boys in Sinaloa who draw play-money pesos, whose fathers and grandfathers before them harvested the only product they'd ever known to morph those play pesos into real dollars. They wonder at our outrage as we, our children, friends, neighbors, bosses, banks, brothers and sisters finance the whole damn thing. Without a paradigm shift, understanding the economics and illness of addiction, parents in Mexico and the U.S. will increasingly risk replacing that standard parting question to their teens off for a social evening – from "Where are you going tonight?" to "Where are you dying tonight?"
El Chapo? It won't be long, I'm sure, before the Sinaloa cartel's next shipment into the United States is the man himself.
Actor, writer and director Sean Penn has written from the front lines in Haiti, Iraq, Iran, Venezuela and Cuba. He wishes to dedicate this article to the parents of slain Chicago youth, and to Rodrigo Lara Bonilla, public servant, father and hero.
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/el-chapo-speaks-20160109#ixzz3wz3qgNQs
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