Herman Chin Loy

Herman Chin Loy

Herman Chin Loy Interview

*Numerous Interviews - May 2023 to August 2023, by Rich Lowe 

Transcribed by Ray Hurford of Muzik Tree 

(c) & (p) 2023

(Coded with “HCL” for Herman Chin Loy’s commentary, “RL” for Rich Lowe questions)

(Special Thanks to Winston Francis, Richard Williams & David Rodigan)

Beth Kingston and Balford Henry were the first two writers to explore Herman Chin Loy’s contribution to Jamaican music. Herman ran Aquarius Records at Constant Spring Road, Kingston 10, at Half Way Tree, close to JBC Radio Station studios, KGs records, and Skateland. He would place speaker boxes out front of his shop and blast the latest music for people traveling up and down the street. 

     Herman Chin Loy started the record shop and later brought his older brother Lloyd into the business. Lloyd equipped the upstairs space as a recording studio, which became the first 24-track studio in Jamaica. Aquarius Recording Studio became one of the top and most sought-after studios on the Island and Aquarius Records was the place to visit to track down the best music. 

(HCL) [Winston Francis] did a song for me. “Rock N Roll Comes To Trinidad.” He used to sing in The Sheridons.

(RL) I was at your shop Aquarius Records in Halfway Tree in 1982. You have such a great musical history. Can you tell me about the title of Augustus Pablo, you came up with that name? Where did you get the idea from?

(HCL) Yeah, that’s true.

(RL) I have been told the name came from a comic book or some Mexican magazine?

(HCL) No. Out of my mind, I just conjured it up. It was nothing that I read or something that someone pass on to me. It just happened.

(RL) Was it a combination of names?

(HCL) Alright, Augustus, the name sounds historic to me. And with Pablo, I know it means “Paul.” It just happened, it was nothing I thought about. The first Augustus Pablo was Lloyd Charmers; he did a song for me called “Shanghai” [Splash label, 1970]. Horace Swaby, which is also known as Augustus Pablo, was in the Halfway Tree area, which is where my shop is. He was passing by, and he came to me with a couple of his friends. He was talking about playing piano for me. He had a melodica in his pocket, so I said to him, “What’s that?” He said, “It’s a melodica.” So, I said I would like to have a reggae tune with a melodica playing on it. There was nobody doing that. There you have the birth of Augustus Pablo.

(RL) “East Of The River Nile”

(HCL) What I’m understanding now is that East of The River Nile is east of Jerusalem – without the letter “J.” Jerusalem means shalom. So, it has Biblical overtones. Which I did not know at the time.

(RL) That is the first song that ever came from Augustus Pablo?

(HCL) That is my understanding as well.

RL) I believe that you started Aquarius record shop back in 1969? Had you been involved in the music prior to that?

(HCL) My first record store was called “One Stop” and that was down by King Street [125 King Street]. It was Neville Foo Loy who opened it. When I left School, I started to work there. A popular song at the time was “Ball ‘O’ Fire” [The Skatalites, Coxsone record label, produced by Coxson Dodd, 1965] that came from Coxson. How I remember it; there was this gentleman, well I call him a gentleman, but he was thief. He said I like that song, and I when I went to get it, he stole a radio I was selling. I give that shop on King Street called One Stop to Derrick Harriott. Then Derrick moved to Twin Gates. He went from downtown to uptown. I knew a lot of people from downtown and uptown. I knew the industry. I knew the people. I could look at him and know what song he wants. So that was One Stop.

     I was working for KG Record Shop for about three years when I got the Aquarius shop at Halfway Tree. I fell out with KG because his mother passed, and I saw this place for rent and started Aquarius. Some people have printed information about this, and it’s not true. The birth of Aquarius is me! I invited Lloyd into the business and gave him Aquarius Recording Studio, and I maintained Aquarius Record Shop. Because he was older, he was supposed to be looking after the family. I wanted me and my brother to be in business together!

     I moved closer to God and became more spiritual. I’m now what you call a Hebrew Israelite, but not the American sect that preaches exclusiveness and hate. I grew up with Rastafari, and they are saying that Haile Selassie is God. How can a man be God? He’s a spirit. Haile Selassie has a birthday. So, is God just born? [laughs].

     Have you heard of the Hebrew Aleph and the Tav? It’s like the Greek Alpha and Omega. In English, it is the A and the Z. It’s the 22 letters in the Hebrew language. [Herman reads from his bible from the Book of Revelations, 3:14] “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” The scriptures say Christ is the first fruit. In the regular bible, it is Christ is the first fruits. Like a mango tree, the first fruit that come off it is the “first fruit,” and then you have the harvest. In Corinthians, the “Beginning and the End” and when the End shall come, he will give up the kingdom to God. There is the God, and there is the Father. All this Trinity thing you hear – with regard to Christian dominations is foolishness. It has no bearing with the truth from my perspective and understanding.

     I was raised as a Catholic. I went to the Catholic Church. It is pure indoctrination. But if you read the Bible carefully, you will see that God spoke to set a people called Israel. Within Israel, you have Jews and Israel. Did you know that? The Southern Kingdom is called Judah, and the Ten Tribes to the North would be Israel, but God has not forgotten all of his people. He punishes them separately. And in the last days, he is going to gather his people. When you say gather, this is the second time. The first time was out of Egypt. Did you know that the people who came to the West are the Israelites?

     Because in Genesis 15 says that will be in a strange land and will be evicted 400 years. And only one set of people have suffered 400 years in slavery is the black man who came here to the West.

The 400 years is done already, but the fullness of the Armourites is not yet. That is still going on right now. There is a second exodus to happen. Within a short while – in my opinion, about 2030. 

     There are two sets of people who suffered: The white people in the Holocaust and the black people with slavery. The Rastaman is in the Bible too! If you look at Ahaziah 20 and they shall be ashamed of Ethiopia, their expectation, and Egypt, their glory. There is only one set of people who is looking towards Ethiopia with any expectation, and that is the Rastaman. The Bible is very specific about all of this. Israel does not like Judah, and Judah does like Israel. The white man don’t like the black man, and the black man does not like the white man. But Ibrahim out of Joseph. He had two sons. And Ephraim shall multiply the nation. You see a lot of these people coming in now.

     What they have taught us is foolishness. I’m trying to find myself now. To speak truth, the light is the way. Do you know what “the way” is? It’s the way of the Nazarene. Christ was a Nazarene. He said we will have 2000 years of dread – dread, dreader than dread. A lot of them will tell so much foolishness. There are only two types of priest on Earth. One is heavenly and the other is priest on Earth. You have to Selah, which means you have to pause and think. I like to do a lot of rhyme. I like to rhyme. It’s not a crime, I’m doing fine for the time. I have many rhymes, and they come out of the Biblical understanding of those scriptures that are written.

(RL) You did a lot of singing as well.

(HCL) My favorite singer is Sam Cooke. Then you had Pat Boone, and Johnny Mathis, Nat King Cole. I used to sound like them. [Herman starts to sing] “Answer me, oh my love, just once in a while, tell me what I’m guilty of, how I came to lose your love” Then I would do Harry Belafonte. My voice is waning now.

Leslie Kong

(RL) Still sounds good to me.

(HCL) [Herman chuckles to himself] For me, singing and songs don’t have to be perfect. It’s the way you sing them if you sing them from the heart. A feel and a grit to singing. It’s just nice to hear you sing.

     Then one day I heard a song, “Diddley, diddley, whoa.” That’s Barrington Levy. You see, after listening to American music, I went back to Jamaica finding my roots. Sometimes they were uttering songs and lyrics, and they didn’t know what they singing. Like Bob Marley, I don’t think Bob Marley knew what he was singing about. Just reading out of the Bible. There will be a second Exodus. It says in the Bible there will be a second Exodus. And that is when I understand now that there will be a coming together of Israel and Judah together. Where they shall be one in his hand.

     When you get understanding, you can read and utter sounds. You don’t know God, neither do I. God is, and God is who was and is to come. God is outside of time. The beginning was when Christ came. It’s like Deuteronomy 16. This is the beginning of what’s new. If you get a good concordance – or you study. You will find the beginning of the year is not January or February. It’s Spring when the birds begin to sing. It’s when trees put on the leaves – that is the beginning of the year. According to the word of God. God is not fooled. He is there, but you have to search for him. And when you search for him, you do not know my ways, and you don’t know my wrath. They shall not enter into my rest.

(RL) Where did you grow up?

(HCL) My father was Ernest Chin Loy, and I grow in Clarendon, where my grandfather lived; we call him Parson and Papa. There was Aunt Ivy, Aunt Moy, Aunt Vi, and Aunt Vi’s Husband – who was a policeman. 

(RL) How many brothers do you have?

(HCL) I have Ali, which is my bigger brother, and then there was Lloyd, my sister Carol – who we call “Paluchi,” she died. Then, Pauline, I think she is in Atlanta. My mother recently died. She lived to nearly 100. There is a half-sister called Sandra. If I had the money, I would have looked after all of them. My brother-in-law - Bunny [Stephen “Bunny” Hayles], had a sound called Bass Odyssey. There are two different Bass Odyssey Sound Systems; Keith Walford is from the country, and the other is Bunny from Kingston, and they came together. Let me tell you what happened. You had Keith, who was from the country, and my brother-in-law, who is from town. And they had this deejay – Squingy.  Then they split up – one went east, and one went west. Bunny is coming from my era. I know a little of what went on musically back then. RJR and JBC would play a country and western tune back in the day. 

(RL) Are you related to the producer Leslie Kong?

(HCL) When I come from country to town, my parents dropped me off at Beverley’s on Princess Street. My brother Ali was already working there, and there was Leslie Kong, all the Kongs: brothers “Fats” [Lloyd Kong], Ken [Catholic Father Kenneth Kong], and Cecil [Kong]. Mrs. Kong was there with daughters Li Cun and Li Moy, and the son Clin Min. There was a Miss Lowe who moved from Hannah Town to Stony Hill. Hannah Town was a bad area, but she moved back down to Hannah Town. She say she feel safer down ‘dere. Y’see, when you grow up, and the people know you, they look after you. I don’t remember all of them, but they were the Kongs. That was the Chinese side of the family that I knew, so I feel I am biologically related to these people. The Kongs had a bakery upstairs, and Leslie was a musician. I’m not a musician. My son is the number one band in Charlestown, South Carolina. I’m going to give you his name – Joel Chin Loy. He doesn’t like to play reggae that much, but he likes rhythm and blues. I say to him, play a little reggae, man. Don’t bite the hand that feed you, you have to feel it. The name of his band is Midnight City They have a song out called “Feelings.”

(RL) Did you send your son Joel to a music school?

(HCL) No, I did not. He did it on his own.

(RL) He can read and write music?

(HCL) Yes, and he as so many good musician around him. When I went to Charlestown, they said: “Your son is amazing.”

Midnight City Band

(RL) You were at Aquarius, so who could tell the story better than you? This is the reason for talking to you because you have insight, and no one else would know the experiences from those times. 

(HCL) I was the man at Aquarius. When I say I don’t want any accolades, what is, is what is.

(RL) It is a fact.

(HCL) When I look back on all the records. Here is the news; “The Great Booga Wooga from Laruga.” It was someone else’s song. Sir Lord Comic and Count Matchukie. I used to listen to American music, and we copied from them. Nothing was original. When I came to America. I did the research, I realized that most of these songs were American Songs. Coxson used to come up here to buy them and copy them over for release in Jamaica. The original music was like Beverley’s Records and Prince Buster, because of the lyrical war between them. And then you had Scratch around the corner. He had a thing. One day, he came into the shop looking like Selassie, wearing his bowl hat and thing, but I could talk to him. All these people saying these things about this and that – is lies. For they have never been there. My thing to you is, what about the half that has never been told for the price of gold? They are all doing it for gold.

     There are other people, who are coming up after me, and they don’t even know me. It doesn’t matter to me. I’m just trying to hand over the baton. What we are talking about now is something was never taught. Something, you had to be there. These people who write books they are writing it from a second-hand way, and some things get missing. The true story is not there. So, while I’m alive, it’s good to have this conversation. Some of what I know can be penned to try and make sense of what went on. I was not the first person; you had people before me, like Baba Motta, Coxson, Byron Lee, and Ken Khouri; “who had the first 24-track recording studio.” No, to be accurate, it was I who had the first 24-track recording studio, it was built by Rosser [Rosser Electronics Limited, Alexandra Road, Swansea, Wales]. And then Khouri [Kenneth Khouri of Federal Recording Studio] had a 24-track Neve [Neve Electronics, established by Rupert Neve], which was the best recording studio [console] you can buy. I had the first quadraphonic setup, which I didn’t use. There was no need for it. I had that machine that I never used.

(RL) Quadraphonic systems were a popular thing in the early seventies, but never caught on.

(HCL) When it comes to music, I can tell Ernest Ranglin what to play, and he will play it, but I’m not a musician.

     My song, “One Step Ahead,” from Beres Hammond. That song sold that album “One Step Ahead” was on the charts for many weeks as number one.

     Most of the songs I produced were done in about half hour. I have an album with Lennox Gordon, one of the musicians out of the Ghetto. He sounds like Ernest Ranglin and George Benson in one. But because I departed from Aquarius Recording – and Aquarius Records.

(RL) Lloyd died early on – approximately 1993, what happened between you and your brother Lloyd?

(HCL) I reached out to him and apologized for things that I did. He didn’t welcome that, and we parted ways. But I did not get one penny out of the business, and we made millions of dollars out of it. Nothing was passed onto me, not one penny. 

(RL) With the Aquarius shop, was Lloyd the business end of it, and you were retail? Did you define roles?  

(HCL) This is what I used to do; every night I carry the money up to him. I was a fool, I used to take the money to him! My older brother he was supposed to be looking after me! You would invite your brother into the business because he was older and was supposed to be looking after the whole family – that is not how it goes. When you enter into a business, it should be black and white, and that mean the pen [to write it down formally]. We had it penned down. With “the pen” [documentation or by contract], I gave him Aquarius Recording Studio, and I took Aquarius Record Shop. 

(RL) And that is when the business break-up between you brothers?

(HCL) Yes, and there was lies.

     Ali lost about $50,000 because he put up some money he earned working with the ships to continue the music business. When we parted ways, there was a document drawn up because Lloyd wanted to know if I wanted to get the building. The building would have valued more because the studio wasn’t doing more business than the record shop. The record shop was the business. 

     I had to move from a house we bought where we were supposed to live to Constant Spring Road. Lloyd bought a place where our other brother Ali used to live. It was somewhere around where Harry J used to live. I still had the Aquarius Record store, and after a while, I couldn’t get a place to rent. This is when I had to go uptown to look another store that I called Music Fix. I started to fix radios, and it was like a music store where I was selling records. It was a good business and going well, so I expanded with other store branches by JBC and Constant Spring Road. I started to get bad face from the building owner, and things were closin’ in on me, so I had to close the stores.

     One time you had a new Aquarius. Like some shit went out deh, but there is only one Aquarius. But because of politics and greed – money comes into it. And some people will never know the truth until it’s told. And who is going to believe the truth? I didn’t pursue anything else after I left Jamaica.

(RL) When you built the studio, who paid for the equipment, the board, the microphones, the speakers?

(HCL) The equipment was my brother Lloyd’s idea. We brought in this man from Swansea – Rosser to put it all together.

(RL) So, tell me. How did you come to start the studio? Who had the idea? What did you want to do?

(HCL) Lloyd. I wasn’t interested in a studio. I could use Channel One or Randy’s. He got the money from Noel Chin at JDB - Jamaican Development Bank, to get into Aquarius Limited because I had already used the name for my record shop before Lloyd came in. It was about 300,000 dollars, which was big money at that time. He had good connections. Very good connections. He was in the Royal Air Force. There was a school opposite the record shop, and he also tried to get that. Anyway, I’m not saying I didn’t do anything wrong. I did wrong as well, but he should have been more honest.

(RL) When you started the studio at Halfway Tree, that was the first location for the studio?

(HCL) The first and last.

(RL) Was there ever a time where you were very involved with the sessions?

(HCL) I was involved because I created a number of albums that never came out. Let me tell you what happened; I quickly realized that the studio had no bottom end - heavy-duty bass, like Channel One. When I made songs like “Feeling Is Right” and “Long Time Rock Steady,” I went and did the bass and drum at Channel One. And then I put on the other things like the voices at Aquarius. We didn’t have a great bass and drum, which is part of the reggae music.

(RL) That is what made Channel One so popular, the thick bottom end.

(HCL) Right, so guess what happened. I went to Channel One and then Randy’s, and I did what I did. While the [Aquarius] studio was being built and I realized that the studio didn’t have any bottom end. I was more interested in doing American music than reggae. So, I went to Paul Khouri at Federal and said give me one of those tape like you get from Phili in America at MFSB [Sigma Sounds Studio band in Philadelphia. The “Mother, Father, Sister, Brother” band]. Paul Khouri obtained a two-track mixed down tape for me from Sigma Sounds Studio. Byron Lee would get his two-track tape from America to listen to the sound mixed down. Once I got one of the two-tracks from the Khouri’s, I listened in the Aquarius Studio to measure the studio from that sound and know what is missing. I knew I could easily find out what is missing and what I can boost after I play back those two-track finished mixes. Actually, when I cutting the dub album at Federal, Paul Khouri said this is damn foolishness, but I was payin’ him, so he did it. Later on, he made his own dub album. But the first dub album was mine, and the next album that came from Coxson. Studio One. It came after me, and then you have Scratch [Lee Perry].

(RL) “Aquarius Dub” (Blank “Aquarius” label, Herman Chin Loy producer, 1973) was recorded at Dynamic Sounds Recording Studio?

(HCL) The tracks were recorded by the players at Dynamic Sounds and the album was mastered and cut at Federal Records [the album was mastered and the stampers cut at Federal]. I got it recorded and mixed simultaneously at Dynamic Sounds. I mixed it in about half an hour – a little bit more. I did one song in London, but I don’t remember the song’s name. I recorded it with that Indian guy - Junior Lincoln of Bamboo Records. Dynamic had the top studio – which was bigger, and the bottom studio. The top studio had engineers Carlton Lee and Karl Pitterson. That day, we recorded interchangeably between studios, and most of the recording was done at the bottom studio. 

     Bunny Lee was in the studio with Slim Smith. He was a great singer, that guy could really sing. Damn! This guy can sing! There was a great argument over The Harder They Come movie, and Bob Andy was fighting with Bunny Lee – beat him up. Bob Andy punch Bunny Lee to the fence outside. I witnessed that. A whole heap ah things happen in a short time. 

     With dub, I was in the shop, and people keep asking for this type of music. I say I’m going to put it on an album. I’m going to present it like a dub album. It not gonna have any paper [record label] on it, and it gonna look just like a dub [the record would appear as exclusive dub or dubplate – as was being played and traded by dance hall sound systems]. With the paper on it, I can make more than one. I was told you cannot make more than one without the paper. So, I have a much-limited amount. I carry it to Randy’s, and they say, “Gimme two.” I sell all of those albums at my record shop! That’s when I began to ply my wares. That’s where I did most of my business with my recordings. Other shops were not interested in selling my stuff, and I could sell my stuff at Aquarius cuz I know what the people wanted. When people come in my store, they’re happy. I was makin’ money comin’ outa my ears, but I didn’t buy shit! That’s what I’m telling you, I had access to the money, but I was not a drinker, a womanizer, or one of these people who spend money. So, I didn’t need money. I didn’t buy no house, no cars, I give the money to my brother for our business.   

(RL) Were you thinking the money was going into the mutual business, and your brother was going to provide care for the entire family?

(HCL) I really thought so. 

Now Generation

(RL) When people asked for the music that sounded like that, how did they describe it?

(HCL) Bass and Drum.

(RL) What would they say when they asked you for the music type?

(HCL) You have any dub album? You have any dub?

(RL) Did they mean a dub that a sound system would play?

(HCL) Exactly. Sounds like an exclusive. Expensive. Because it was exclusive and expensive!

Much later on, I produced an album called “Nostalgia,” which is old American music. It was all the old tunes – that people wanted. I made a couple of dub albums. I would buy a cut from One Foot Jimmy [Jimmy Radway].

(RL) When you recorded “Aquarius Dub,” it was intended to be strictly an instrumental record?

(HCL) Yes, yes, yes.

(RL) And who did you seek out to play the music?

(HCL) You had Val Douglas, Mikey Chung, Mikey Boo, and maybe Wire [Earl Lindo] and “Organ D” [Tyrone Downie] from Wailers, a good musician. I wanted to produce something of more value in terms of music. Not necessarily reggae. I just wanted to do something different musically.

(RL) It sounds like you are talking about the Now Generation Band.

(HCL) It was Now Generation, like I said: Mikey [Chung], Geoffrey [Chung], Mikey Boo [Richards] the drummer, Earl Wire Lindo, and Val Douglas. You are correct

(RL) In talking about “Aquarius One” dub, one of the songs was recorded in England?

And all other tracks were done with Now Gen?

(HCL) I think “Aquarius One” was done with Family Man on bass. I would have to go and listen to the album again and be more truthful to you.

(RL) It’s a long time, a very long time ago. Who was the engineer at Dynamic when you made the album?

(HCL) You had Carlton Lee and Karl Pitterson.

(RL) Did they understand what kind of sound you were trying to get?

(HCL) I said I want a cut without the voice.

(RL) What the impact of that album?

(HCL) The impact was real quick, and it gave me the confidence that what I was doing was right.

U Roy would get one, all the big sound system would be playing it. And then Lee Perry would say that Black Art Man was the first dub album. Which is foolishness. I know Perry as a crazy dude. I know he was interested in Obeah. In Jamaica, we are very superstitious. If you get a cold sweat, it must be a duppy.

(RL) What made you release “Aquarius Dub 2”?

(HCL) Because of “Aquarius Dub.”

(RL) It was that popular?

(HCL) Yes because it made me some money. And I was following the money.

(RL) Having made that money and the popularity was there, were your instructions different at the studio? Did you go back to Dynamics and Federal Studio?

(HCL) With everything that was going on at the time, I did not get to finish the things in proper order, I don’t remember the details.

(RL) Did you ever release other dub albums – that were blank. Other music that you would circulate?

(HCL) There was one that not fully recognized as such because of this transition with my brother. They were not finished.  

(RL) Did you ever get to sell them?

(HCL) One and two, to One Foot Jimmy. I paid him for a cut of “Mother Liza”/“Mirror Mirror” [Leroy Smart songs] or swap records with him. I can’t remember what. Even “Rockers” from Augustus Pablo. Pete Holdsworth from Pressure Sounds has asked me for some music I cannot find. The tracks would have to been cleaned up.

(RL) Tell me more about One Foot Jimmy.

(HCL) He was in the Kendal Train crash and lost one foot. And he was a big Labourite. He knew a lot of bad man.

(RL) So how did he walk? Did he use a crutch or a cane?

(HCL) He had a crutch.

(RL) Was he producing music for you?

(HCL) People liked his productions. There was a lot of things that I wanted to get done, but I realized that life is short. You remember when you were eighteen? And now the age you are, it’s gone so fast. How old are you now?

(RL) Fifty-nine.

(HCL) OK, I’m 74. Fuck.

(RL) What happened!

(HCL) What happened, I don’t know. I am telling you, my brother, seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and the rest of things will be handed onto you. The most important this is your soul. Seek God. All that is righteous is him. The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. So, all of these thing, what about the half that has never been told? Meaning that there are things around right now, and we are not paying attention to them. We are talking about recordings, but the most important thing is God and his works: The Commandments.

(RL) As time flies, I’m always conscious and thankful for what I’m doing. My soul is intact.

(HCL) That is very good

(RL) It’s not easy. The saying goes: “The long road is sweat; the short road is blood.”

(HCL) Yes, the road is long, with many winding turns.

(RL) You put the “Aquarius Dub” album out in 1973 as a pre-release, and then you took a break from the music.

(HCL) Away from the music, and then I came to America eventually. And I didn’t go back for a while.

(RL) You had some music released on Pressure Sounds, “Soul Vibration.”

(HCL) That guy who runs Pressure Sounds is quite honest in terms of what he is doing. At one time, he wanted to buy everything. And I said to my wife, you deal with it because I’m tired of dealing with these people.

(RL) They want to buy it forever.

(HCL) Yes.

When transitioning to America and walking down Utica Avenue on my way to Channel One’s J&L Record Shop, I heard the lyrics, “Hip Hop, Hippity Hop, and you don’t stop.” I saw these black Americans with the boom boxes on their shoulders playing Chic on the Atlantic record label [the New York group Chic which formed in 1972]. I had this hip-hop song that I recorded and was going to release. It wasn’t called hip hop then it was called DJing, but that was the first Jamaican hip-hop song. I still have it here on a Scotch tape, which is evidence that what I’ve been saying is true. Richie MacDonald [of The Chosen Few group] – who died recently, he’s the one that I got to do this hip hop thing. It’s all this experimenting with different things that come to mind.