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Blue: basically, it is easy 2 consider the non lethal options for targets as "good" bc ultimately killing = bad therefore not killing is good right? although, as we have discussed, in some cases the non-lethal option is arguably worse - primarily lady boyle ofc, the pendletons also have an awful fate, l*ca ab*le isnt great either.... and as discussed, the ultimate reason is the non-lethal options, while in some cases definitely good (hypatia) and other bad (boyle) are not better for the target but rather for the city and the overall chaos level. nonlethal options are not there for corvos (or emily's in dh2) peace of mind but rather to reduce the strain on an already troubled world. from the perspective of the rest of the world, the non lethal options are quieter and calmer. i think this is regurgitating old talk but in this essay i will explain in more depth lmao
so like. lethal options are always worse for the city. it creates chaos as through killing the reactions of other people would imo be worse whereas the nonlethal choice bypasses that. (i will avoid a full analysis for every target bc lack brain but also havent played dh2 as intensively). for example, campbell. we brand him a heretic and he is cast out, eventually contracting the plague and presumably dying. imo he deserves it lmao but thats by the by. by branding him a heretic, the other overseers cannot do anything but cast him out. however, if u were to kill him, imagine how the overseers would respond? to the high overseer being assassinated? i dont actually know, but there would be anger, possibly infighting etc., and i suppose more unpredictability. but by branding campbell a heretic, they have to accept as that it their way, their rules - even if they wonder why, they cannot question. in a sense, theres better control?
the pendletons and boyle non lethals, though v different and both B A D, both work almost similarly imo to reduce chaos. simply put, having nobles going missing is far better than murdered - murder brings further investigation, fear, scandal... idk where im going w this but the point is, by comparison, them going missing is quieter...
h*ram is a good talking point. i think he gets executed anyways after the events of dh1, but think of it like this - by broadcasting his crimes, instead of killing him, corvo avoids making him a matyr. i know that kinda happens anyway w the regenters, but by having his crimes out in the open, it explains the situ to the city and facilitates emily's return to power.
w daud, it is less clear? as the previous targets are all people in positions of power within the city. daud does wield power, but over his whalers and i suppose in the shadows of dunwall. but, by daud leaving his whalers and the city of his own free will, i imagine theres an element of the whalers being,, defeated and deflated, and perhaps why they later disbanded - would this happen if daud was murdered along with many whalers by a high chaos corvo? or would that rile them up, make them angry and unite them?
havelock is kinda obvious lmao dont murder someone in front of ur daughter
ANYWAYS DH2 NOW!!!
hypatia is obvious but nonetheless - by saving her, u benefit the city by having a caring soul willing to look after and help the poor. enough said.
jindosh. i dont think i can make his non-lethal elimination fit well w this theory, other than similarities to the pendleton/boyle - no murder, less chaos regarding investigations etc. in fact, in canon is jindosh's non lethal viewed as an accident of his own doing. bc again, even if its shit for him, from an outsiders perspective its "hey that inventor dude fucked himself up" instead of "crikey he got murdered!!"
breanna smeanna idk i dont care
l*ca,,,, its weird bc ultimately u leave someone else in a position of power when i am anti monarchy. WHOMEVER!!! by picking the nonlethal here u avoid uh a massive position of power being left vacant - it is cleaner and easier for the people of serkonas rather than the uncertainty of not having a governing authority. ofc, if lethal route is taken, u can (in theory) pick a new duke of ur choosing. however, view this from the POV of a serkonan - ur duke, who was a dick, has been assassinated probably by ur empress and shes gone picked a new replacement. this could lead to unrest - by comparison, who tf is gonna complain when ur duke suddenly starts being nice?? no one. so altho u do leave someone in that position (and idk what happens to l*ca he get wot he deserve xx), it is easier for the people of serkonas, as a whole
delilah smelilah idk i dont care xx
so in conclusion, non lethal options are purely for the overall well being of the world u play in, not for corvos benefit and morality, and certainly not for the targets. the end
Hiaen: breanna is an important witch in the coven, Delilah's lover and a public figure as the haed of the museum. If you kill her, you rile up Delilah and the witches (participating to the chaos back in Dunwall) and you cause public outrage in Serkonos. By depowering her, Delilah dumps her herself, it's probably kept on the down-low among the witches and well she's still the same as far as the Serkonan cultural world is concerned
Blue: w delilah theres the element of her own magic being her downfall, which is probably again a bit easier to be processed by "oh our old empress killed the new one and now we have the old one back".
Kara: ALSO if I may add one small thingy from the citizens' etc pov they don't know your two options. If you murder them, you murdered them and you're bad, the world doesn't know the non-lethal options are worse, so lethal options affect them more
Blue: YEAH! LETHAL OPTIONS ARE VISIBLE TO THEM. for lots of the non lethal, the citizens likely do not even know it was u - eg JINDOSH - tho for some they may suspect - e.g. h*ram
but if u kill its like "owo who did this?? former woyal pwotector cowvo attano??"
nonlethal = hidden, less chaos; lethal = visible to citizens, chaos
Kara: it's essentially ppl being like "omg how could you not only kill but MURDER them there had to have been another way :cry: " but you can't just be like "well it was either that or ruin their life beyond repair forever"
Custy: Yah like not to get a bit fave but The Pendletons even like it was SLACKJAW and the bottle street gang who actually, ya know, cut their tongues out and shit. Even tho Corvo made the moral decision ultimately from an outside pov (as if anyone even KNEW what happened to them, pretty sure no one did) it was Slackjaw and co who did the thing
Hiaen: Also for Jindosh apparently he still sticks around a bit after getting fried - Luca is still asking him for clockworks when Emily gets to Luca's mission. So it took them a while to realize he was irrecuperable and they didn't scramble to find a replacement.
Custy: Boyle in a way too although Corvo did bring her to Brisby, Brisby was the one who took her away and stuff so it's ??? idk like Corvo did it, but it's not JUST him sometimes
Blue: yeah - altho djkshada corvo made the decision 2 abduct someone 2 give to their stalker - but since for a while no one knows what happens she simply vanished and corvos role in it, to an outsider, is unclear/non existent (bc also her affair w h*ram was not wpubcily known so ppl may not make the connection between her and the whole monarchy situ) - but if u straight up MURDER her at a party its like clearly visible to everyone there and they are like !!??!?!!
Custy: But yeah any murdering of any of the dh1 targets (sans Daud ig kinda) is real !!!! red flag to the city. You see that shit in the newspapers and that's just making everything worse
Blue: yeah!! for non letahsl its just a subtle mention of OWO GONE MISSING as opposed 2 FUCKING MURDERED. think about non lethals from a regular citizens perspective!!! nd then u go HOO
Custy: Hiram especially like there's real closure and in fact people KNOWING that it was him who brought the plague, even though like "shit someone literally brought the plague here", it's like good to know that the bad person in charge is being given justice? idk fjdsalf
Hiaen: murdering Daud would probably cause the most loyal Whalers to come for your ass. And they may lose their powers but they're still extremely proficient assassins, and even though Corvo is a one-man army he's still one man, he needs sleep sometimes, and they can hurt him in other ways than a direct attack on him or Emily
Custy: True, it DOES impact Corvo himself on a personal level, but I think like overall the city only vaguely knows about Daud, and him being dead isn't something the whalers are gonna broadcast all over the city At most it's just "The Knife of Dunwall Found Dead In the Flooded District" as a newspaper headline, and if anything people would be RELIEVED to know that he's dead
Hiaen: Yeah but I was thinking they may not come for Corvo or Emily - because Corvo's out of their league - but they could undermine Emily's reign by causing chaos around
Blue: another thing is that if corb assassinated h*ram, he is being judge jury and execution (from an outsiders perspective), whereas otherwise real justice is served
Custy: Daud was not viewed in a kind light by the city, he's a wanted criminal. Meanwhile the rest of the targets, even though most citizens hate them, are still proper authorities and stuff
Some eliminations feeling too harsh to the player
Aidan [regarding Jindosh]: I do agree it is super uncomfortable considering the other nonlethals aren’t as... harsh? malevolent? imo it’s on par with the boyle elim, both could have been improved to actually.... fit the characters and their role in the story ig
Blue: yeah, the boyle elim is uncomft given the Implications, but likewise the pendletwins r also incredibly harsh so (while probable sexual assault and female abduction is different, both are v harsh given their relatively minor role in things nad stuff, tho ofc corvo didnt do the pendltwins himself so on and so forth
Hiaen: Campbell's is tough too, like don't get me wrong he 100% deserved it but objectively? Horrific fate. When you find him at the bottom of the Flooded District as a weeper, it's both super satisfactory and makes you shiver in horror
Aidan: with dh1 I Get it even if it sucks, these people personally tortured corvo, but jindosh is just some guy? yes his clockworks killed people in the throne room but idk idk brain no worky
Dani: I think the difference between the Boyle Party and Jindosh's mansion is that the game acknowledges how fucked up Lady Boyle's nonlethal ending is. With just like.. an ominous music cue. And you can't skip the cutscene. Jindosh's fate is not addressed as harsh by the characters once (in my opinion).
And even then, Jindosh's final cries of "losing an age of advancement" is almost treated like the rambling of a mad scientist? Or a cartoon villain? With Lady Boyle the game like leans over and says "man that was pretty fucked." You don't get that in 2.
Aidan: that’s fair! but ig outside of them saying “yeah this is fucked” and retconning it so that she escaped afterwards feels like just weaponizing sexual assault for the story...... the elim would’ve been much different if she was a man
Phantom: tbh i don't think you could be completely morally good for long in dishonorednot witch levels of cruelity maybe, but it's nearly impossible to survive without at least hurting someone.
Blue: i mean like none of the non lethals are really morally good - or most arent. the points of the non lethals are the reduced chaos for the world (aka missing nobles less WOW than muirdered). everyone in dunwall and the dishonored world p much is a bad person in one way or another (except geoff curnow /j).
and idk i feel like thats an important part of dh - THAT the non lethals still make you :/
Aidan: yeah a big thing in dishonored is how society and violence are pretty inseparable, a pretty pessimistic view but not unfounded.
Whaler: Idk if it was justified to assassinate Lady Boyle. She's obviously super rich and privileged and in many instances she has no idea what consequences her actions have and is apathetic to the ones where she does know, but I still feel a bit sympathetic about her. Sure she isn't a good person, but... yeah. Maybe it has to do with me recognizing that if someone like Delilah told her "I will give you a way out of letting men control your agency" she absolutely would? Who knows. (Also if I can symphasize with Daud and Jindosh and the like then I can do the same with Lady Boyle tbh). I think what Low Chaos Dishonored is trying to teach its players is exactly that, that stopping what you're doing for a minute and listening - instead of becoming what you hate - is the way to go, even if under whatever circumstances somebody lives with doesn't justify their actions and crimes. Hence the whole "poetic justice" angle
Phantom: doesn't esma have girls she doesn't like ruined within a year as an annual thing? gods. i'm sorry but she sorta deserves it, not the non lethal thing. i mean getting offed in general. also i'm pretty sure one of the others is mentioned to have people killed
Potes: yh the 3 all have some pretty messed up crap they do, like i think wave kills servant boys if she likes them too much, lydia's got the heartline "Her servants never last long. And no one dares question her about their whereabouts."
Blue: i mean all the targets are shitty its just. do they deserve to die? like as far as game mechanics go, the reason u kill/get rid of boyle is bc of her giving money 2 hiram. thats it. if corvo was going to kill every person who did things like them well. hed be busy for a while
Phantom: if you gave money to a war criminal i was going to considering doing something against them too
Blue: hiram isnt a war criminal. theres no war. like ofc he is a horrendous person blah blah blah
Whaler: hiram is criminal in the way that everyone working for the government is a criminal
Blue: its like. interesting in the tower mission tho bc a) hirams paranoi b) hirams genuine upset at boyles disappearance or murder and c) that hiram genuinely believed he was doing the right thing
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