Contributors:

Blue, Chungy, Admiral, Potes, Erika

Erika: I like that Karnaca isn't shitty by default like Dunwall, Abele just sucks.

Blue: can u elaborate?? just cos like, we see dunwall in dh1 in the peak of a deadly plague meanwhile karnaca in dh2 is just business as normal so its hard to compare them? dunwall at the start of dh2 (minus like. The c o u p and associated guards in that short area) otherwise seems ok.

Chungy: I mean karnaca is kind of shit imo with the whole mining and blood flies and the corrupt grand guard as well as the duke so I don’t really think karnaca is any better than Dunwall

Blue: yeah! karnaca is pretty etc, but especially the dust district. but i guess erika was meaning that karnaca is bad bc of the duke, just not ahitty by default ala dunwall. but dunwall is also a product of the wider oppression and classism, that peaks at the hand of the lord regent during the plague when he further tries to oppress the poor via walls of light and so on. idk i dont feel like a place is shitty by default and the scales of Bad u see in both games are widely different due to the context

Chungy: Karnaca is just better at hiding it’s shittiness in comparison to Dunwall where everything is in view and Dunwall kind of just leaning on familiar technology ideals etc and not making much progression

Blue: the karnaca we see is the normal karnaca - ok blood flies are worse than usual but otherwise? so when u SEE the guards being bitches and overseers also being bitches, thats the norm!! thats the day to day!! in a way, thats worse than dh1 where the guards were at the orders (and willingly) of the lord regent who had a specific agenda against the poor and so on

not saying guards wouldnt b like that w/o the lord regent however

Erika: I meant that Karnaca didn't start out with shitty labor practices, the Overseers weren't there until recently, and it is Abele to blame

Blue: how long have the overseers been in karnaca? i had assumed it was a while given its been the official religion or whatever of the empire since the early 1700s and that corvos mum was deeply religious. also, in dunwall, the abbey gained extra powers to be so aggressive and so on after the assassination of jess i believe, and werent always given the free reign of the city.

Admiral: Considering that the Abbey's only been around for a hundred years or so, and Liam Byrne is referred to as "the youngest Vice Overseer of Karnaca in decades" (paraphrasing here), it's safe to say the Abbey has had a pretty long-standing presence in Serkonos, or at least in Karnaca. Also as much as Luca Abele is to blame for a lot of the things in Karnaca, problems like the ones we see in DH2 don't typically occur in a vacuum. There were likely lots of problems during Theodanis' time that Luca went on to exacerbate, as well as create new problems on top of. We just don't know details because Arkane was both vague and had fallen into the trap of the "idolized late ruler" trope, much like they did with Jessamine.

Blue: yeah! i was gonna add that although we know theodanis WAS better than l*ca in many ways and that things did get worse after, its not realistic to act that things were great beforehand and tbh in any situation such as this w a royal type figuring exerting most control over a population its unlikely that the world is great and cheery and happy and stuff. and idk also that shitty labour practises,, its kinda naive to think that such didnt exist pre l*ca, like again YES it got worse but again, its the early 1800s and real world comparisons but the 1800s arent known for workers rights.

ngl it is actually very cool to see activism and like almost a union forming for workers rights in dh2 (and in the dh1 dlcs) as a response to workers rights. I honestly dont know much about real world history in that context but i do know real shit working conditions existed in victorian britain, which obvs dunwall and its empire is massively uh influenced by.

i feel likes it impossible to have a monarch or monarch type figure (the kaldwins, the abeles) without shitty labour practises, like look at modern day billionaires. And while some monarchs (eg jess, theodanis) ARE better, they still support and benefit from that system, and although like jess wants to care for all her citizens, its unlikely that she would go as far to do whats really best (eg living wages, good housing etc for everyone) bc it would directly affect her lifestyle (and support in parliament bc of all the rich people).

Admiral: And even if rulers like Jessamine and Theodanis were totally, completely righteous and did their best to do right by their people and did their best to act as selflessly as possible...as rulers of their kind, there's going to be a point where they're hopelessly out of touch, and the people they rely on to give them information about their citizens have their own biases and motivations (for lack of a better word).

Potes: also they may be sole rulers, but they do not rule alone -- even the most benevolent and wonderful ruler is going to have systems and people they lowkey need to answer to and appease

and that leaves room for those who AREN'T so nice to be like "nope no labour laws"

Admiral: Exactly. For example, Jessamine didn't act on her own, she had a Parliament as well, and I'm assuming there's a whole checks and balances thing going on there.

Also I think it would be pretty hard to judge which city is the worst to live in only because we don't see them at their very best, or even at their average. Karnaca is at a low point, whereas Dunwall is in the middle of a crisis that killed half its population, and it's still recovering by DH2.