Deres Majestæt!
Kære Statsminister Lars Løkke Rasmussen
Kære Kirkeminister Bertel Haarder
Kære Biskop Peter Fischer-Møller
Kære Pastor Annette Berg
Kære Biskopper i Danmark
Af Christian Birk 6. januar 2016 22:30
Ifølge efterladte skal reinkarnationspræsten fra Vig Kirke også have tilbudt at skabe kontakt til afdøde. Foto: Scanpix/Claus Bech / Scanpix Denmark
Det er ovre i spiritismen, og det falder efter min mening uden for, hvad der er den evangelisk-lutherske forkyndelse.
Peter Lodberg, teologiprofessor
To tidligere menighedsrådsformænd fortæller nu, at Annette Berg har tilbudt pårørende kontakt til afdøde ved en begravelse. Biskop vil ikke selv tage sagen op, men afventer mulig klage
Sognepræst Annette Bergs interesse for det alternative begrænser sig ikke til hendes meget omtalte tro på reinkarnation. Hun kan også skabe kontakt til afdøde.
I hvert fald var det, hvad hun tilbød de efterladte ved en begravelse i Vig Kirke for omkring fem år siden. Det fortæller to tidligere menighedsrådsformænd for Vig Sogn, hvor Annette Berg har været præst siden 1993.
Hanne Herskind, der var formand for Vig Sogns menighedsråd fra 1984 til 1996, var til stede ved begravelsen. Hun husker, at Annette Berg stod ved kisten i kirken og annoncerede, at hun kunne agere medie, hvis de efterladte ville tale med den afdøde.
”Jeg vil ikke lægge mig fast på ordene, men det handlede om, at pårørende kunne komme i kontakt med afdøde igennem Annette Berg. Jeg husker, at der var noget, der ikke var, som det skulle være. Der var også nogle stykker efterfølgende, som spurgte mig, om jeg havde hørt det samme. Det er jo ikke så tit, at den slags bliver nævnt til en begravelse. Det gibbede lidt i mig, og jeg tænkte, 'skal det her nu også være en del af Vig Kirkes gudstjeneste og begravelser',” siger Hanne Herskind.
Hun er ikke selv i tvivl. Den slags hører ikke hjemme i kirkerummet:
”Jeg synes, at det er forfærdeligt, og jeg går ikke ind for det. Det skal ikke foregå i kirken, og det skal ikke foregå, når præsten står ved kisten,” siger Hanne Herskind.
Sonja Asbjørn var menighedsrådsformand i Vig Sogn fra 2008 til 2012. Hun var også formand for menighedsrådet, da sognepræst Annette Berg holdt begravelsestalen, hvor hun fortalte, at de pårørende kunne komme i kontakt til afdøde gennem hende. Sonja Asbjørn var ikke til stede ved selve begravelsen, men hun talte efterfølgende med flere kirkegængere, der undrede sig over, at Annette Berg havde givet et sådant tilbud, mens hun stod ved kisten og talte til forsamlingen i Vig Kirke.
”Der var flere, der sagde til mig, at Annette Berg havde sagt, at hvis man ønskede kontakt med afdøde, så var hun behjælpelig (Annette Berg, red.). Jeg synes, at det var noget underligt noget at sige. Det ligner ikke noget at sige sådan. Men når jeg ser i bakspejlet, kan jeg jo se, at hendes interesse for det nyreligiøse begyndte allerede der,” siger Sonja Asbjørn.
Kristeligt Dagblad har talt med endnu en person, der var til stede ved begravelsen. Han ønsker at være anonym, men bekræfter også, at sognepræst Annette Berg tilbød de pårørende, at hun kunne sætte dem i kontakt med den afdøde. Kildens navn er redaktionen bekendt.
Peter Lodberg, teologiprofessor (MSO) ved Aarhus Universitet, har ikke tidligere hørt om en sådan sag. Men efter hans vurdering vil en sådan udtalelse fra en præst falde uden for, hvad der kan betragtes som passende i folkekirken.
”Det falder uden for, når man gør sig til et medie, der kan tale med afdøde eller ånder. Det er ovre i spiritismen, og det falder efter min mening uden for, hvad der er den evangelisk-lutherske forkyndelse,” siger Peter Lodberg.
Han mener derfor, at det vil være naturligt, at biskop Peter Fischer-Møller får afklaret, hvad der er blevet sagt ved begravelsen. Eksempelvis ved at få Annette Bergs prædiken tilsendt.
”Det er nyt i forhold til det, biskoppen tidligere har forholdt sig til i pressemeddelelserne i præstesagen, og derfor er det naturligt, at biskoppen går ind i sagen.”
Biskop Peter Fischer-Møller vil ikke selv tage sagen op, men henviser til, at der er mulighed for at indgive en klage:
”Hvis nogle klager over præster i Roskilde Stift, er de i deres ret til at klage til bispeembedet, og så bliver klagen behandlet efter gældende regler.”
Kristeligt Dagblad har været i kontakt med sognepræst Annette Berg, men hun vil hverken af- eller bekræfte, om hun har tilbudt pårørende hjælp til at komme i kontakt med den afdøde ved den pågældende begravelse.
Artikel i Kristeligt Dagblad
”Ingen kender formålet med kirketælling | Kristeligt Dagblad
http://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/kirke-tro/ingen-kender-formaal-med-kirketaelling
"For første gang i årevis indsamler folkekirken landsdækkende tal på kirkegang, men der er ingen plan for tællingerne. Man skal være idiot, hvis man synes, det er sjovt at fodre et anonymt system med tal uden at vide, hvad der kommer ud af det, mener teologilektor
I Sakskøbing Kirke på Lolland har menighedsrådsformand Ebbe Bressing helt styr på, om en gudstjeneste er en bragende succes eller en fuser. Menighedsrådet har i årevis talt kirkegængere ved alle gudstjenester og kirkelige arrangementer og dermed ”målt, om vi har succes”, som han siger.
Men tællingerne giver kun mening, fordi kirken også har formuleret klare visioner og mål for det lokale kirkeliv, fortæller han.”
Kommentarer hertil:
Ingen kender formålet med kirketælling | Kristeligt Dagblad !"Succes eller fuser måles i tal, men tilsyneladende ikke i tal på hvor stor andel i TAL og ligeså i PROCENTDEL ‼️ af hele sognet DER IKKE KOM til gudstjeneste, den søndag. Så hvad siger de tal egentlig ‼️"
Kommentarer til artikel i Kristeligt Dagblad ”Kjeld Holms råd til den nye biskop”
http://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/bispevalg-i-aarhus-2015/kjeld-holms-raad-til-den-nye-biskop
‼‼HVOR ER RÅD OG VEJLEDNING I AT HOLDE TILSYN OG VIRKELIG GØRE SIT ARBEJDE SOM LEDEREN, der tager omsorg for stiftets præster og menigheder???????? Det er da BISKOP EMBEDETS HOVED -ANSVAR! Det er vel da så også selve det der berettiger at bispeembedet er nødvendigt i Folkekirken???????? "For det første skal man som biskop være opmærksom, lydhør og dialogvillig, fortæller han. Og så skal man have modet til at stå fast på egne holdninger, når man kommer ud i stormvejr – og det gør man som biskop, for embedet er ”øretævernes holdeplads”. ”Som biskop bliver man eksponeret i langt højere grad end dengang, jeg blev præst. Dengang bemærkede man ikke rigtigt, hvem der var biskop. I dag er der stor offentlig interesse for biskopperne, og så kommer man ud for situationer, hvor man bliver skældt ud, og folk bliver sure på én og det, der er værre. Så skal man holde fast, trække vejret og tage et glas rødvin – ikke krybe ned under dynen og gemme sig. ”
Kjeld Holms råd til den nye biskop
Som Biskop er man endda givet 10 år som øverste i lederskab- direktør taburetten og kasketten. Samt løn! Så er det da vigtigt at indrette sit lederskab under BISPELØFTET som man underskriver. At udøve tilsyn og hjælpe nye i bispeembedet at udøve godt og ansvarsfuldt tilsyn.
Annette Berg er ikke "en sag der lige er kommet på banen!" Hun har været ansat i en årrække og det er yderst mærkeligt, at hun er uden for Biskop Peter Fischer- Møllers bevågenhed til nu da hun jo med sine holdninger og praksis skiller sig væsentligt ud fra, hvad vi vel pr. tradition forventer at møde i FOLKEKIRKEN.
Til Peter Fischer-Møller :
Er det så sådan at TILSYN for dig betyder, at gøre mindst muligt
Og et SKÆRPET TILSYN dermed betyder at du som BISKOP NU GØR ABSOLUT INTET, altså før der bliver fremført klager???
De tidligere biskopper Karsten Nissen, Viborg og Kjeld Holm, Aarhus, som begge var biskopper i mange år, synes ikke at tage den enorme vigtighed af tilsyn og undervisning og rådgivning til efterfølgeren alvorligt, dette som er den vigtigste opgave i bispeembedet. Hvis Karsten Nissen havde taget hans vigtigste opgave i embedet op, tilsyn, som er i total overensstemmelse med Bispeløftet, som han selv har undervist i på Viborg Stifts hjemmeside,
så kunne Lars Skov Krøgholt og jeg, Daniela Skovs sag have været afkortet og løst på, lad os sige 15-30 minutter. I stedet har den PÅGÅET siden foråret 2012
indtil …….. Han valgte ovenikøbet fuldt ud at ignorere sin foresatte, Kirkeminister Manu Sareens råd og befaling til ham om at arbejde for en løsning. Så JA TIL AT TALE OG UNDERVISE OM TILSYN OG OM BISPELØFTET.
OG BARE ET STÆRKT NEJ TIL AT PRAKTISERE TILSYN OG OMSORG SÅDAN SOM BISPELØFTET LÆRER. DET BISPELØFTE SOM HAN SELV HAVDE SKREVET UNDER PÅ, AT HAN VAR ENIG I FOR AT BLIVE BISKOP OG FÅ UDBETALT SIN LØN I OVERENSSTEMMELSE MED PLIGTERNE I EMBEDET I FOLKEKIRKEN I DANMARK.
Begge tidligere biskopper synes ikke at bekymre sig med det faktum at de er valgt til et embede, som tjener Gud og tjener mennesker såvel som folkekirken, hvor de var ansat gennem demokratisk udvælgelse.
Fra Aarhus Stifts hjemmeside:
”Biskoppen er den øverste myndighed i stiftet i gejstlige spørgsmål, og vælges hertil af stiftets menighedsrådsmedlemmer og valgmenighedsbestyrelser. Som øverste gejstlige myndighed har biskoppen blandt andet til opgave at ansætte nye præster, afholde ordination og føre tilsyn med, hvordan stiftets præster varetager prædikeembedet, sjælesorgen og forvalter sakramenterne. Biskoppen er også den, der skal godkende mindre ændringer i folkekirkens liturgi og ritualer og brug af kirker til andet end gudstjenester og kirkelige handlinger. Derudover forestår biskoppen selv en lang række kirkelige handlinger, herunder bispevielse, kirkeindvielse, provstekreering m.v. Biskoppen er den samlende figur i stiftet i alle spørgsmål, der vedrører det kirkelige liv.”
Med venlig hilsen Daniela Skov og Lars Skov Krøgholt
ENGLISH TRANSLATION
The development in this case must really be followed closely by you, Minister of Church, Bertel Haarder. And we really need a thoroughgoing definition on
1. Supervision.
2. Intensified supervision.
‼
Have we reached to a point of Witch hunting / burning of Annette Berg? A That must be the Bishop's responsibility now to identify. To scrutinize this.
And if it is the very fact that she did express herself as a spiritistical "believer" then consequences must be taken, and leave out any room for her Bishop to shy off from dealing with conflicts. Bishop Peter Fischer-Møller himself issued and signed with his personal handwriting a Statement to The Press he will conduct a practical intensified supervision until
30-12-2016!
Well ! So much for an undertaking of RESPONSIBILITY as in an intensified supervision.
Kind Regards
Daniela Skov
The article:
“New case with Vig pastor: Offered relatives contact to the departed
According to relatives the re-incarnation pastor from Vig Church too has offered to create contact to the departed.
Two former chairmen from the parochial church council are now telling that Annette Berg has offered relatives to take contact with the departed at a funeral. Bishop will not deal with the issue, but awaits a possible complaint.
Pastor Annette Berg's interests in the alternative is not limited to her much discussed belief in reincarnation. She is also able to establish contact to the dead.
At least this was, what she offered to the relatives at a funeral in Vig Church about 5 years ago. This is being told by two former chairmen from the parochial church council at Vig Parish, where Annette Berg has been a Vicar since 1993.
Hanne Herskind, who was chairman of the parochial church council at Vig Church from 1984 to 1996 was present at the funeral. She remembers, that Annette Berg stood next to the coffin in the Church and announced she could act as a medium, if the relatives wished to communicate with the departed.
”I will not be quoted for the exact words, but the issue was, that relatives could get in touch with the departed through Annette Berg. I remember, there was something that did not seem to be as it should. There were also more people succeeding, who asked me, did I hear same? It is not that often, such matters are mentioned at a funeral.
I jumped inside and I thought:"is this going to be part of Vig Church's service and funerals?" Hanne Herskind says.
She has no doubts herself. This kind does belong in the Church building:
"To me this is awful, and I do not approve of it. It has no place in the church, and it has no place when the pastor is standing next to the coffin",
Hanne Herskind says.
Sonja Asbjørn was chairman of the parochial church council at Vig Church from 2008 to 2012. She was also the Chairman when Pastor Annette Berg held the sermon at the funeral, where she told that the relatives could get in touch with the departed through her. Sonja Asbjørn was not present at the funeral itself, but she spoke afterwards with several Church attendants, who were puzzled by Annette Vig suggesting such offer, while she was standing beside the coffin speaking to the fellowship at the funeral.
"Several people, said to me, that Annette Berg had said, if anyone wanted contact to the departed, then she was to be at service, (Annette Berg, editor.)
I thought this was a peculiar thing to say. It is out of place to say such thing. But looking into the mirror to the rear, I can see, that her interest in the new religious sphere started already back then," Sonja Asbjørn says.
Kr.Dagblad (Newspaper) has spoken with yet one more person, who was present at the funeral. He does wish to appear as anonymous, but he too confirms that Pastor Annette Berg offered the relatives, she could bring them in touch with the departed. The source identity is known to the editorial office.
Peter Lodberg, Theology Profeesor (MSO) at Aarhus University, has never before heard of such case. But in his estimate a statement like this is totally beyond all that can be seen as suitable in The State Church.
"It falls outside, when one makes oneself into a medium, that is capable of communicating with the dead or with spirits. This belongs to spiritualism, and in my opinion this falls outside of what is of evangelical-Luthern preaching, Peter Lodberg says.
He estimates therefore, that it would be natural that Bishop Peter Fischer-Møller get clarification of what had been said at the funeral. Fx by getting Annette Berg's sermon mailed to him.
This is new in relation to that which the Bishop has related to in his Press statement, therefore it is natural the Bishop takes this case on him.
Bishop Peter Fischer-Møller himself will not take this case on himself, but he refers to the possibility there is to file a complaint:
If anyone complains about pastors in Roskilde Diocese, they have the right to complain to The Office Of The Bishop, and then the complaint will be dealt with according to applicable rules.
Kristelig Dagblad (Newspaper) has been in contact with Pastor Annette Berg, but she will neither invalidate nor confirm, if she has offered her help to relatives
to communicate with the departed at the funeral concerned.
Christian Birk.”
Article in Kristeligt Dagblad about counting of Church service attenders
http://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/kirke-tro/ingen-kender-formaal-med-kirketaelling
"No one knows the purpose with the counting of Church service attenders." .
Comment
s:
Succes or mere peter out is measured in numbers, but evidently not in figures that accounts for how LARGE a number measured in exact FIGURES as well as measured in PERCENTAGE of the parish as a whole who DID NOT attend Church Services .
So what do those REALLY tell as a matter of FACT?
Article:
“No one knows the purpose with the counting of Church service attenders."
If the State Church wishes to collect numbers for the entire country, there can be no doubt about what the plan for such counting is, says bussisness man Lars Kolind.
First time in years The State Church is collecting nationwide numbers of Church attenders, but here has to be a plan for these countings. You have to be an idiot, if you find it fun, to feed an anonymous system with numbers without knowing, what comes out of it, a Lector in Theology states.
In Saxkøbing Church at Lolland Chairman of parochial Church Council, Ebbe Bressing is in total good control of whether a Church service is a resounding succes or opposite a peter out.
The parochial Church Council, has counted numbers of Church goers at all Sunday services and Church activities and thereby " taking to account if we are in succes", he says.
But the accounts only make sense, because the Saxkøbing Church has defined clear visions and purposes for the local Church life, he says.
‼️
Comments to article in Kristeligt Dagblad with advice from the outgoing Bishop Kjeld Holm to the new Bishop in Aarhus
http://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/bispevalg-i-aarhus-2015/kjeld-holms-raad-til-den-nye-biskop
‼ ‼ Where are the ADVICE and instructions on how to KEEP SUPERVISION and REALLY DO HIS JOB AS the MANAGER who takes care of the diocese pastors and congregations???????? That's really the BISHOP CHAIR'S main responsibility! This is probably also what justifies qualifying that the Bishop Office is necessary in the State Church???????? "Firstly, we must be attentive, responsive and as Bishop dialog willing, he says. And so, we must have the courage to stand firm on their own attitudes when you get in stormy weather – and that will happen as a Bishop, for the Office is the "place to get whips". "As a Bishop, you are exposed to a much greater extent than it was then, when I became a pastor. At that time, you did not really notice who was the Bishop. Today, there is a great public interest surrounding bishops, and so you get in situations where you will be told off, and people will be sour on you and worse. So, we must stick to it, breathe and take
a glass of red wine – not crawl under the covers and hide. "
Kjeld Holm's advice to the new Bishop
Pastor Annette Berg is not "a case that just came about now." She has been an employee for a number of years and it is utmost bizarre and peculiar that she is seemingly outside Bishop Peter Fischer-Møller's supervision till now, since she in attitudes as well as practicing her Pastoral job separates herself significantly from what is to be expected traditionally in The State Church.
To you Bishop Peter Fischer-Møller:
Is it so that supervision means to do as little as at all possible ??
And does an INTENSIFIED supervision then mean, that you as a Bishop Now Do Absolut
ely Nothing, at least till a complaint is given????
The former Bishop Karsten Nissen, Viborg and Bishop Kjeld Holm ,Aarhus who both were in office for many years did not seem to take serious the huge importance of supervision and in teaching and counseling to the successor this no. 1 TASK belonging to the Office of The Bishop. If Karsten Nissen had taken his no. 1 in his office, supervision which is in total alignment with The Bishop CREED that he himself has taught on Viborg Dioceses webpage
the case Lars Skov Krøgholt and I , Daniela Skov could have been shortened to be solved in let's say 15 to 30 minutes. Instead it is ONGOING from spring 2012
till........He even CHOSE to fully ignore his Superior, Minister of Church, Manu Sareen's counsel and demand to him to work for a solution. So YES TO SPEAKING AND TEACHING ON SUPERVISION AND ON THE BISHOP CREED.
AND JUST A STRONG NO TO PRACTIZE SUPERVISION AND CARE AS TAUGHT IN THE BISHOP CREED , HE HIMSELF HAD SIGNED HIS AGREEMENT TO IN ORDER TO BE THE BISHOP AND BE PAID HIS WAGES ACCORDING TO THE DUTIES OF THIS POSITION IN OFFICE IN THE STATE CHURCH IN DENMARK.
Both former bishops do not seem to concern themselves with the fact that they are chosen into an office of serving God and serving the people as well as the state church where they are employed through democratic elections
From Aarhus Diocese Home site:
The Bishop is the highest authority in the Diocese in the ecclesiastical questions, and is selected for that purpose by the Diocese congregational council members. As the highest ecclesiastical authority the Bishop, among other things, has the task of recruiting new pastors, hold the ordination and supervise how the Diocese pastors are performing the Office of preaching, pastoral care and administration of the sacraments. The Bishop is also the one who will approve minor changes in the Church liturgy and rituals and the use of churches for purposes other than worship and sacraments. In addition, the Bishop is conducting himself a large number of ecclesiastical acts, including the Bishop wedding ceremony, inauguration, Dean creation, etc., The Bishop is the unifying figure in the Diocese in all questions relating to the ecclesiastical life.
As a Bishop you are even given 10 years as the top person and head of Leadership. The Director chair as well as the authority. Plus the wages.
Then it is crucial to conduct Leadership according to the BISHOP CREED that the person in office sign his or her agreement to. To execute supervision as well as help new in Bishop Office how to execute a good and responsible supervising ta
sk.
Kind regards Daniela Skov and Lars Skov Krøgholt