Response from the Church Ministry (Kirkeministeriet)
We received responses from the Church Ministry by special consultant Jørgen Kroer and thank you for it! An answer, which in many ways is interesting, but which also gives rise to even more questions.
Here is the question from Daniela which the consultant has answered:
People pay grants to Danish Oase, and grants to their Free church within the State Church (Valgmenighed) some up to 10 percent monthly on their net income called tithes, and when the Danish Oase does not guide and inspire so that people know that you have to quit the state church or they will in addition pay taxes to the state church?
That’s not to the benefit of these members, is it?
From: Jørgen Lynge Kroer
Sent: 10. marts 2014 15:24
To: 'daniela.skov@gmail.com'
Dear Daniela Skov
The Church Ministry can tell that "Dansk Oase" to the knowledge of the Church Ministry is a free church community, ie. a community of evangelical congregations outside the state church. But a community which in many essential points share the same biblical basis as the state church.
Dansk Oase is working for renewal, equipment and mission in the Danish church on the same Evangelical Lutheran basis as the state church but without being part it. At some churches the pastor is very inspired by Dansk Oase’s Community values.
For example, the church Randers Frimenighed writes on its website that the independent congregation is part of an Oase Community, and explains, among other things, that: "It means that we are part of a network of parishes, “valgmenighed”s and independent congregations, and Dansk Oase has just celebrated its twentieth anniversary. Dansk Oase is offering courses and support to the various congregations in the network include in children and youth ministry. A special event is the Summer Oase - where 4,000 people meet in week 29 in July. Summer Oase is the largest camp / festival for the whole family. Here we have a “Randers lane”, where we enjoy a nice community, and the children just love to be there. It's real family vacation. We eat together every night at the grill and ending the day - weather permitting - with bonfire. "
It sounds good and nice, but should also illustrate that the Oase church community is characterized by being a volunteer community where the various congregations organizationally is completely independent of each other, but in their religious activities are often the inspiration for each other.
It is a voluntary action of a member of the state church, to be a member of the church. This means that as a member of the state church one may at any time opt out if that is what you want.
If you have opted out of the church, the obligation to pay church tax immediately is removed. This system would seem the Church Ministry that every member of the church may well be served by.
Kind regards
Jørgen Lynge Kroer
Special consultant
Kirkeministeriet / 2. kontor
T: 3392 3390 / D: 3392 3927 / jkr@km.dk
Frederiksholms Kanal 21 / 1220 København K / www.km.dk
Special consultant Jørgen Lynge Kroer writes that Dansk Oase as far as the Church Ministry is aware, is "a free church community, ie. a community of evangelical congregations outside the state church." Daniela's comment goes first and foremost to the fact that people who are members of a congregation in many cases pay double if they are not aware that they must resign their mebership of the state church when they become a member of a “valgmenighed” congregation. If the “valgmenighed” church is also a member of Dansk Oase, the member will often pay a gift contribution.
As regards the Dansk Oase’s identity Jørgen Lynge Kroer mentions, you must have overlooked the small passage in the quoted from “Randers Frimenighed” church: "we are part of a network of parishes, “valgmenighed” and independent congregations."
That the members of the Dansk Oase is to find both in the state church, in the “valgmenighed” churches and independent congregations, is seen in the list of members http://danskoase.dk/index.php?id=1047. Here are listed former parish pastors (eg. Agnete Zimino), pastors in state churches (eg. Stig Christensen, Marie Church in Sønderborg), a parish church (Karlslunde Strand Church), communities in the state church (eg. Kernehuset in Vejle) , “valgmenighed”s (eg, Kolding. Valgmenighed and Aarhus Valgmenighed) and independent congregations (eg. Copenhagen Frimenighed).
Kolding Valgmenighed writes clearly on its website "Kova is one of the state churches in Kolding." If this is so, it is really an unfair burden they place on the congregation that they will be financially independent, which is also claimed. Yes, they expect from the congregation that they pay adequate grants on a monthly basis to pay their own pastor. How can one be a state church and receive church tax, while being financially independent?
I myself am a part of Kolding Valgmenighed’s history. The congregation began as a community within the state church “Kristkirken” in Kolding. Vicar Henning Astrup wanted to start a congregation work in the church, which went beyond the Sunday services. I believe it was in 1991 that we met 6-7 people in my apartment in Kolding to talk about how such a congregation work might look like. Here, "Cell Group Community for Kristkirken" (and it was not a community in Kolding Jail, but a church community whose smallest unit is the cell group, a small group of believers who meet in homes and talk from the Bible about life as Christian).
There was then an expressed wish by several of the Cell Group Community members to be affiliated to the Dansk Oase, but because there was no consensus in the management team, it could not be so. Several individuals in the community derived their inspiration and religious identity from Dansk Oase. Shortly after Henning Astrup left Kristkirken in 1999, The Cell Group Community dissolved as the new minister declared that he could not be in charge of it. That situation was beginning of Kolding Valgmenighed as a continuation of the community into the new framework.
The free ”valgmenighed”s and independent churches in title form:
In Ryslinge parish on the island of Fyn during a revival that characterized the term "religious meetings", was a clergyman, William Birkedal (recruited 1849-1865), who made himself unpopular with the Church Ministry at his critical coverage of the King. He was dismissed and formed a free church without proper legal basis. He wanted to form a free church within the Evangelical Lutheran Church. The church built in 1866 “Nazarethkirken” in Ryslinge as a free church.
In 1868 the “valgmenighedsloven” Act was [making legal a free church within the state church, ed] - with the Ryslinge case as an opportunity - adopted "as a national issue." This was Birkedal's and the congregation's desire for a free church within the Evangelical Lutheran Church frames satisfied.
As Birkedal's successor in Ryslinge church the theologically conservative pastor John Clausen was employed. Now we come to 1918, when a liberal theologian Thomas Skat Rørdam was pastor of Ryslinge Valgmenighed. The content of his theology, where the resurrection of Christ was an experience in the minds of the disciples and several of Jesus' miracles were discredited, caused great debate, and in 1920 the “valgmenighed” was divided into two “valgmenighed”s, Ryslinge Valgmenighed with Skat Rørdam as a pastor and the Grundtvigian Valgmenighed in Ryslinge.
Skat Rørdam wanted to introduce the practices of baptism, which was consistent with his theology. In 1925, however, he was denied recognition as a Community pastor. One group followed him out of Ryslinge Valgmenighed, and he journeyed around the community centers "with his seven-branched candlestick."
A group of 140 people who did not want to form independent congregation stepped out of the Skat Rørdam congregation and was included in the current Ryslinge congregation, and they claimed the ownership of Nazarethkirken. There was a dispute between the two congregations, and in 1927 became the independent congregation of the Supreme Court awarded ownership of the church.
Today, there are still two congregations in Ryslinge, Ryslinge Frimenighed which owns the church and Ryslinge Valgmenighed who have the right to use it on equal terms.
Source: http://www.ryslingevalgmenighed.dk/historie.aspx.
Valgmenighed The recent history is marked by the formation of many charismatic congregations, related to Dansk Oase and evangelical congregations. In recent times also formed independent congregations on this biblically conservative wing in Danish church.
Finally, I would then tie the bow on this historical overview, the term Free Church in Denmark is uniquely linked to pentecostal and Baptist congregations that have a completely different (and internationally influenced) revival history.
Valgmenighed is defined in Wikipedia:
Valgmenigheder belong to the state church and as such must be approved by the church minister. The requirement for approval is that at least 50 persons who are eligible to vote for parish councils, sign the application and that a person who is qualified as a pastor in the church, declares that he wants to become a pastor appointed congregation. The “Valgmenighed” shall bear all expenses, including the remuneration of the pastor, but members pay in return not church taxes. “Valgmenighed” opposed to independent congregations are under the supervision of the bishop and dean.
It does appear that the fellowship that exists between state churches and “valgmenighed”s is compared to confess the Scriptures - they profess the same faith. Besides they have in common that they are both under supervision of Dean and Bishop.
“Valgmenighed” stems from state church, and succumb to the same requirements for the pastor's training and he should be ordained. “Valgmenighed” must have church premises to be inaugurated by the rules of initiation by a state church - or will have access to hold worship services in a church in a way that does not impede the congregation needs of the church. “Valgmenighed” leads parish and report to the bishop of the inlet and outlet of members. This and more can be read in the Law on “valgmenighed”s (Valgmenighedsloven) https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/R0710.aspx?id=72667.
There it is also said "The “Valgmenighed”’s expenses incurred by members of the congregation." A “valgmenighed” has statutes which it prepares and approved by the bishop. “Valgmenighed” has a board, and the bishop must be informed as to who is the chairman and vice chairman. "”Valgmenighed”’s board organizes the church service and determines employees' wages and other conditions of employment."
The pastor shall pronounce conscientiously to abide by the rules applicable to state churches and the special rules that apply to “valgmenighed”. In short, what makes a congregation to a state church's bishop and dean and common rules on church book keeping, the pastor must be ordained and must be employed by the same rules (requirements for training and beliefs arguably) applicable to state church pastors.
In the law for “valgmenighed”s it does not require that members of a congregation must leave the state church. And as far as I can see, there is nothing that indicates that you remain a member.
It is quite evident that a “Valgmenighed” is not a state church. It is its own, and has different connection factors to the state Church.
Thus, it seems seductive to claim, as Kolding Valgmenighed do, that Kolding Valgmenighed is a state church, and give people the impression that they must remain members of the state church and pay church tax.
If Kolding Valgmenighed (Kova) as they define themselves clearly on their public website is "one of the state churches in Kolding," it is deeply alarming that they say "we are financially independent." How can Kova expect donations from members? Yes even grants at a level that can pay them a pastor? Jonas Serner Pedersen received eg 300,000 kr per year.
And further donations to Kolding Valgmenighed’s other expenditures on all maintenance, food, coffee, driving, shopping and also for donations to external mission projects, instead of being fully under the government rules with church taxes from citizens and state money for everything else?
This is to manage people’s, that is, the church money recklessly. At the annual church meeting at which the audit was included, we never heard that Kolding Valgmenighed was one of Kolding state churches, and thus the church's finances were placed under state?
“Valgmenighed” pastor Mads Peter Kruse, along with Kovas deacon Henning Astrup have the responsibility to guide the management and the congregation properly in what is Kova’s identity and its economic affairs.
An important point of attachment to the state Church is their theology, the scriptures that outlines their faith. Another fundamental point of attachment is baptism, which is infant christening.
In the state church infant christening is the entrance fee for membership of the church. The same applies to the “valgmenighed”’s.
As Daniela and I were married, she would like to be a member of the same church as I was. She was baptized in the Pentecostal church in Esbjerg with faith baptism, which in Lutheran correlations are found to be rebaptism.
The then Valgmenighed pastor Henrik Nordborg first gave the straightforward answer to me that she had to renounce her baptism. It was very violent for Daniela to get such a message, and it was against her conscience.
Henrik Nordborg later came back with the answer that he had really made an effort to Daniela could become a member of Kolding Valgmenighed. He had asked several pastors for advice and she was happy.
Later, she chose to join the Pentecostal Church in Kolding for several reasons. Substantial was for her was that she would never be free to share her faith with people, as long as she was in a church context, which stands for baby christening theology and practice, so she could not be a loyal church member there and it all was a matter of conscience.
We cannot deny that theology of baptism and practice divides the waters and clearly affects the membership affairs.
Later, in 2007, I was also baptized, in the Apostolic Church in Kolding. When I told this to the management team in Kolding Valgmenighed the church I was a member of, they received it as a resignation statement. They thought that when I let myself be baptized with the baptism of faith, it would be because I wanted to be a member of the Apostolic Church. So far I had not been in my thoughts. I just wanted to be baptized, because I at God's intervention had been convinced that it was the right thing. And then I would tell my management about it, because it was the right thing to do.
Free Churches have another theology of baptism which involves immersion in water, as opposed to infant christenning where the child gets water on her head. The sprinkling of water have acc. To National Geographic article "Water through the ages" http://natgeo.dk/vand-gennem-tiderne-0 root in Odin cult, which Daniela has clearly written in a mail to “valgmenighed” pastor Keld Dahlmann in Aarhus, who is also in the leadership of Dansk Oase, so he is aware that it has its roots in Odin cult. I'm sending immediately after this mail Keld Dahlmann in copy.
Behind the two practices of baptism are two different understandings of scripture. With infant christening, they use a scripture interpretation, where the infant's parents and godparents on the child's behalf declare their faith in God. The Free Churches, it is essential that it is the believer's own initiative and in the belief that he has become, he / she will be baptized by immersion in water
Various issues:
Journalist, “valgmenighed” pastor and president of the Dansk Oase Jesper Fodgaard was, according to Jonas his mentor. At a church camp in Kova where he spoke, he was introduced as a mentor, but unfortunately it has not been possible for us to understand if he was a mentor to the pastor Jonas Serner-Pedersen or the leadership or the congregation. Jesper Fodgaard refused to answer any questions, and in relation to a police report, he said that he has nothing to do with anything.
1. Kova & Economy / salary. Is Kolding Valgmenighed really a state church?
2. We can see that the number of observers in Dansk Oase have been reduced drastically possibly within the last year in which we have previously written to you about something with observers into three persons http://danskoase.dk/index.php?id=3254 . How can Niels Peter Nielsen and Hans Jakob Krarup, who we know as people who have fought for renewal, just act as observers in the Dansk Oase without voting rights at the meeting of representatives? It is really alarming that Dansk Oase allow themselves to act in a way so loosened from history when you have such a large sphere of influence in Denmark, especially in relation to children and young people.
3. To Dansk Oase by Jesper Fodgaard and General Karsten Bach: One of the points we have been calling the church is the biblical emphasis on seeking diakonia.
In The Apostolic Church in Kolding deacons compare with a janitor in the church, it is the deacons who stand for the practical arrangement s of worship services. Here it is nice that the Apostolic Church with the “Kristkirken” Church in Kolding participate in various diaconal projects under the auspices of Gademix, a social center for socially disadvantaged children and young people. But diakonia is also inside the church, where the Apostolic Church including have debt counseling.
Jonas Serner-Pedersen started in Kolding Valgmenighed the "Act", which reached out to people in the town with practical help. We are made aware of Majbritt Madsen, who has come in Kova the "Act" is stopped at the time Jonas was fired, and we know no more about it than this.
We support the theses on diakonia set forth in the document "Teser om diakoni" http://goo.gl/bgZiqf.
In The Dansk Oases website diakonia is something with counseling, therapy, personal and spiritual growth. Against this background, we have the following questions to the Danish Oasis: What do you mean when you define diakonia? What is the Danish Oases emphasis on seeking diakonia? What is your definition of diakonia? How do they get it into line with Acts on aid to widows etc. And James, about the true and genuine worship. How do you see pastors in Dansk Oase your identity as shepherds of a church versus pastors ownership over people?
4. The Church Ministry and Danish Oase, Bishop Karsten Nissen:
Jonas Serner -Pedersen published after his firing, where he was to bury Daniela's friend Mary a letter , which he opened with "Dear congregation ." Since then he used his office in Hjerm parish by at Mid and West Jutland police to get the police to say , "You ( Daniela ) is not part of his congregation ." Daniela experiencing congregation from God is her and everyone's Creator, and that we all as citizens of Denmark are allowed to be in the church in Denmark. She was heavily traumatized by that phone call, she saw that Jonas took the liberty to deny her as his fellow believer and fellow citizen. With what legal basis has Jonas Serner -Pedersen authority to use the title of ownership (his congregation ) in his tenure in the state church, and enforce its ownership of state law enforcement by police and the authentication of Jonas Serner -Pedersen's ownership through state legislative authority over citizens Denmark ? We are Danish citizens, and he has been granted a restraining order against us based on the statement from the police "you are not in his congregation ' " the Church in Denmark consists of many different people in both urban and rural areas. Where in Danish law is it said that we give ownership of our lives to a pastor when we are members of a church / denomination ?
Another question for Church Ministry:
Many are wondering whether they should be in the church in light of the fact that they "get off" at the funeral, if they stay a member of the church. Is it correct to think that it pays to be a member of the state church on the day to be buried because it will not cost so much?
To finish, we must once again express our frustration that we have been fined, we cannot afford to pay them, our despair over fines and Jonas and pastors in Danish Oase, and especially with the editor of the whole church weekly Henri Nissen (Jonas Serner-Pedersen is on the board of BUO association for children and adolescents in Dansk Oase), has led us be made unwelcome and as if we are pastors in every possible denominationers enemies, so we are not welcome. According to. Henri Nissen "We do a lot of people sad" and once again clarified by Pastor Emeritus Helge Pahus that we "pursue God's people."
Kind regards. Daniela Skov og Lars Skov Krøgholt.
On Monday, we sent an email out about Ruth Evens, such as has caused a Norwegian pastor's divorce in 2005., we wanted to give our support for him, and here is our communication on facebook with him:
I am writing to Jan-Aage Torp:
I am sorry that I forgot to send to you, we have sent mail to the Danish, Norwegian and Swedish newspapers with a link to your article about Ruth Evens at Oslo church website. We have just sent the link. We have already sent the following to you: We just read Moses Hansen's profile with regard to your church website about Ruth Evens ' intervention in your and your ex- wife's life. Thank you sowed your story, so people can get an eye opener with respect to that a leader in the church could destroy marriage through manipulation. We have fully done the same painful life experiences, and had to live with that tie around our history for some years. It's awfully heavy, when the church will be the big block in our lives where we need to be in fear and concealment of fear (ie lies) . We do need the church just as God's loving family who could support and help when life is hardest. http://sites.google.com/site/ytrings. We have reported from our lives and the church in Denmark also newspapers in Norway, Sweden and Denmark. We'll send the link to your church website to Norwegian, Swedish and Danish newspapers, for it is a Danish leader, Ruth Evens, former head of the church Faderhuset and then placed at the recent local elections in Denmark. Shalom! With love, Daniela Skov og Lars Skov Krøgholt.
Answer from Jan-Aage Torp:
Sincerely thank you!
Daniela writes:
Wishes for you blessings BIG Time from our beloved Abba Father God. Lars and I do get so cheered and comforted and strengthened when we read over on your website, for example on 5 fold service ... and other things. It is Matthew Ward with I will worship You. Watch this video on YouTube: http://youtu.be/hhJYN2Hk_FQ Worshipping Our beloved PRECIOUS Holy Creator Father God in the beauty of Holiness. Holiness protects us in this ever darkening world. Holiness is fun. To live holy lives is only joy and true joy, not something to make life boring. We will can claim that God our Holy Father Abba is boring :) Love and SHALOM to you today, Daniela
Answer from Jan-Aage Torp
Thank you very much! And God bless your work! Check our special website: www.ECALeaders.eu.