---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lars Skov Krøgholt <lkrogholt@gmail.com>
Date: 2015-12-13 17:10 GMT+01:00
Subject: På et tidspunkt snakkede Daniela Skov i Simon Peters Kirke med Jørgen Pedersen som har været med i Kolding Valgmenighed i mange år sammen med sin kone Berit, angående vores medlemsskabssituation i Kolding Valgmenighed, om han vidste om vi var udmeldt, og om konflikten med Jonas. Han sagde først at han slet ikke mente vi var medlem. Det blev Daniela meget forskrækket over, for hun havde betalt medlemsbidrag og også stemt på årsmødet. Jørgen P. ville undersøge det. Han ville også tale med Jonas S-P. Hun sagde, at vi forstår ikke hvad det er for noget med Jonas S-P. Da Jørgen vendte tilbage til Daniela efter at have snakket med Jonas, sagde han fra Jonas med brysk stemmeføring, at vi havde skrevet eller sagt (Daniela husker ikke lige hvilket ord) så mange grimme ting om ham dengang (sommer 2012). Det er dog den værste løgn ud af Jonas’ mund. Vi hjalp ham den sommer, og det anerkendte han selv ved at skrive, at vi var så gode mod ham. Det er det, han har sagt foran
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Deres Majestæt!
Kære Statsminister Lars Løkke Rasmussen
Kære Justitsminister Søren Pind
Kære Kirkeminister Bertel Haarder
Kære Finansminister Claus Hjort Frederiksen
Kære biskop Henrik Stubkjær
Kære biskopper i Danmark
Kære provst Carsten Hoffmann
Kære Hjerm Menighedsråd
Kære Kristeligt Dagblad
Konfliktløsning: Matthæus 18:15-17 under Jesus’ specifikke vejledning: ”Hvis din ven forsynder sig imod dig, så konfronter ham med det under fire øjne. Hvis han hører på dig og beder om tilgivelse, så har du fået din ven tilbage. Hvis ikke, skal du tage en eller to andre med dig, for enhver sag skal afgøres på to eller tre vidners udsagn. Hvis han stadig ikke vil høre på dig, skal du indbringe sagen for menighedens ledelse. Hvis han heller ikke vil høre på dem, bør du se på ham som en, der står uden for menigheden”.
Vores yngste søn som nu er 15 år har i årevis valgt at gå i kirke om søndagen i Kirke I Byen på Lykkegårdsvej i Kolding. Han valgte at han ville Ungdomsvelsignes der og det blev han i marts 2015. Vi er hans forældre som lærte ham fra helt lille at komme i kirke. Han gør det helt på eget initiativ. Men alligevel er han udsat for smerte og chikane fra præsterne deroppe. Både i Pinse og Apostolsk blev han udsat for PSYKISK STRESS FORDI VI HANS FORÆLDRE BLEV UDSAT FOR VERBAL CHIKANE OG MÅTTE HOLDE OP MED AT DELTAGE. Lars Krøgholt var ellers blevet voksendøbt i KIRKE I BYEN OG BLEVET MEDLEM DER, og jeg var voksendøbt i 1997 i pinsekirken i Esbjerg og havde MEDLEMSSKAB en tid i KOLDING KIRKECENTER ( PINSEMENIGHED) . Vores søn ville så gerne være med i børnegruppen med sine venner til deres samling hver uge. Ligeså ville han jo hen om søndagen og være sammen med børnene i kirken .
Det begyndte i Kolding Kirkecenter i 2008-09. Vi kunne ikke komme i kirke uden at møde verbal chikane fra Lone Ambæk og hendes veninde Susanne Larsen en længere periode, så jeg ville egentlig stoppe søndagen før den hændelse vi nu beskriver.
Chikane skete flere gange endog foran andre i kirken, så det er ikke uden vidner. Min mor på over 80 år var gæst den søndag .
Det var der anden sidste søndag vi kom der, og hun var så rystet over Lone AMBÆKS opførsel mod hende og mod mig og jeg græd så meget. Hun sagde, jeg " aldrig mere skulle gå hen i den KIRKE!" Desuden sagde hun rystet :" hun er en religiøs fanatiker!" da vi foran andre blev bedt om at fjerne os fra det bord i cafeen, vi havde sat os ved og Lone kom og havde lagt sin taske på en stol, hvilket ÅBENBART SÅ betød at hele bordet og de øvrige der var PÅ HENDES PRIVATE TERRITORIUM! ‼️
Den sidste såkaldte gudstjeneste vi var til i Kolding Kirkecenter var fastelavnsgudstjenesten.Den var efter søndagen , hvor min mor og jeg var bortvist af Lone Ambæk fra et bord i cafeen!
Lars K og min søn ville bare så gerne derhen til fastelavn med de andre børn.
Der blev serveret rundstykker og jeg satte mig ved samme bord, som Susanne Larsen og andre.Der var dækket op i det rum, hvor vi ellers havde morgenbøn om søndagen og vi holdt søndagsskole for børn derinde under gudstjenesterne (under møderne)
Da fik jeg øjeblikkeligt den kontante besked fra Susanne Larsen , at jeg ikke havde lov til at sidde der. Ikke fordi der ikke stadig var ledige stole. Men at hun holdt en plads til Lone Ambæk , som sku komme i taxa og Lone Ambæk ville ikke sidde i samme rum, som mig. Så måtte jeg høre på det foran mennesker , som var gæster i kirken den søndag og rejse mig op og gå. Jeg var fuldstændig knust og færdig og gik ud og sagde det til Seniorpastorernes svigerdatter Birgitte og deres søn, Leif Petterson, som var præst i kirken.
Det svar jeg fik var at, det kunne Leif Petterson ikke gøre noget ved. Han ville ikke , det var jo det som han praktiserede.
Jeg kan ikke forestille mig , hvordan det er tilladt , at de to kvinder , som var nære veninder, havde lov til at tage EJERSKAB I KIRKEN OG BESTEMME AT JEG ELLER ANDRE IKKE VAR VELKOMNE TIL AT VÆRE I SAMME RUM SOM DEM
Tænk at en kvinde i menigheden , Lone Ingrid Ambæk ( nu Skjoldholm) måtte stå ugen før oppe foran i kirken og skulle bede højt foran alle sammen med andre, og hun råbte sine bønner og lige bagefter nede på sin stol BAG VED MIN MOR OG JEG SAGDE NOGET ONDT TIL MIG, DET FIK MIN MOR TIL AT OPLEVE DER VAR NOGET HELT GALT.
Og to søndage slap hun afsted med at hundse med mig. LEIF PETTERSON SVAREDE DA LARS OG JEG GIK TIL HAM MED PROBLEMET , og det at selv min mor som var gæst oplevede Lone Ambæks chikane, at " Lone sku have lov , at reagere en tid på at hun var blevet frataget sin Profetiske BØNNESKOLE TJENESTE!" Han ville ikke gribe ind, men han var ked af det skete, ku vi se, men han sagde som forklaring på , at han ikke ville tale med Lone Ambæk om det :" DER ER FLERE TING I DET!"
Vi var så jordede. Og rystede.
Lone Ambæk havde undervist i 2-3 år , hvad Seniorpastorerne Grete og Flemming Petterson selv kaldte Profetisk BØNNESKOLE . Undervist mennesker FRA 4 KIRKER ( Pinse og Apostolsk kirke, Kolding VALGMENIGHED og Folkekirken i Hjarup samt nogle fra menigheder i Odense og Horsens) i profetisk bøn, blev det kaldt.
Hun havde endog samlet GAVEBIDRAG IND OG EN PERIODE LADET INDKOMNE PENGE GÅ IND PÅ SIN PERSONLIGE BANK KONTO I DEN DANSKE BANK OG BRUGT DEM TIL SIT PRIVAT FORBRUG UDEN AT LEDERFAMILIEN PETTERSON TOG SIG AF DET OG GIK TIL POLITIET OG LIGESÅ INFORMEDERE ALLE, DER FIK STJÅLET VORES GAVEBIDRAG. Pengene skulle have gået ind i KOLDING KIRKECENTERS REGNSKAB.
‼️‼️
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On Fri 11 Dec 2015 at 00:03 Lars Skov Krøgholt
lkrogholt@gmail.com> wrote:
Kære Kristine Garde.
Tak for samtalen her til aften. Tak fordi vi måtte henvende os til dig igen. Må vi tale med dig igen, når du har læst det?
Jeg fik ikke præsenteret hele sagen i telefonen.
Her er først udskrift fra retten i Holstebro, hvor vi blev pådømt bøder.
Citat fra ”Udskrift af dombogen. DOM afsagt den 20. juni2013”:
”Påstande. Anklagemyndigheden har nedlagt påstand ombødestraf. De tiltalte har erkendt sig skyldige.
Sagens oplysninger.
Daniela Skov har forklaret, at det er rigtigt, at hun har afsendt sms-beskeder samt mailet til Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen, ligesom hun også har indtalt forskellige beskeder på Serner-Pedersens telefonsvarer. Hun kan således godt erkende, at hun har overtrådt tilholdet af 12. november 2012, men hun forstår ikke baggrunden for det pågældende tilhold. Hun fik nærmest et chok da tilholdet blev forkyndt for hende, og hun var efterfølgende i alvorlig krise.. Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen havde været næstformand i en forening kaldet”Oasen” (”Dansk Oase”, vor anm.), som er en kirkelig organisation under Kolding Valgmenighed. Der opstod på et tidspunkt alvorlige problemer i ”Oasen”, hvorogså tiltalte havde en søn, som var med i bevægelsen. På et tidspunkt blevJonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen bortvist fra Kolding Valgmenighed.
Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen syntes, at kirken skulle beskyttes, og han ville derfor ikke være med til at afdække de ulovligheder, der var foregået i ”Oasen".Tiltalte og Lars Krøgholt rettede henvendelse til Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen,fordi han skulle sende dem nogle papirer, men der skete ingenting. De manglede således nogle udmeldelsespapirer samt en kvittering for modtagelse af en udmeldelse. Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen forholdt sig fuldstændig passiv, og dette er baggrunden for de gentagne henvendelser til ham fra de tiltaltes side.
Lars Krøgholt har forklaret, at han også kan erkende at have afsendt sms-beskeder, e-mails og foretaget opkald til Jonas Jacob
Serner-Pedersen, som nævnt i forhold 5 og 6. Han kan i det hele henholde sig til den forklaring, som er afgivet af Daniela Skov. Tiltalte skulle også bruge nogle papirer, herunder en kvittering og en referenceskrivelse fra Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen.”
‼️
FRA Lars Krøgholt :
Det startede med at Jonas blev fyret, og min
ekskone Daniela
og jeg meldte os ud af Kolding Valgmenighed. Daniela bad om en kvittering for at han rent faktisk havde meldt hende ud.
Vi KUNNE KUN I GOD TRO TÆNKE, at grunden til han ikke svarede angående de papirer (det var som han udsatte med de papirer hvorpå der var fortrykt på de udmeldelsesformularer, at det var menighedens præst der skulle tage sig af dem.)
han tog lang tid bare at få dem sendt til os i første omgang, og efter nogle uger SMS han Lars K :" Nu må jeg hellere tage mig sammen og få de papirer i en konvolut og i postkassen til jer!"
At det skyldtes, som han havde betroet Daniela, at han havde som svaghed, at havde det dårligt med administrativt arbejde og han ikke var god til at overholde deadlines og de i 5 i lederskabet i Kolding havde været så vrede på ham på det.
Daniela ville udmeldes så straks hun får at vide af Jonas S-P , at lederskabet havde mobbet ham i det skjulte i HALVANDET ÅR. Og holdt hemmelige møder. Daniela ville ikke have sit navn med i noget ( som om ,at hun derved gav sit personlige samtykke ) hvor nogen mobbede hendes præst i det skjulte. Det var og er en stærk samvittighedssag for hende.
Ligeså at hun havde inviteret mange ind på ALPHA kursus og fik det så dårligt at lederen af ALPHA, var den der så åbenbart var den værste mobber mod Jonas S-P. Oveni følte hun sig så dårlig at hun havde inviteret mange uden for kirken ind i god tro og de så osse kom ind i sådan et miljø med fordækt MOBNING. Jonas S-P havde grædt foran hende, da han fortalte hende det og sagt:" nu får du at se mig græde!"
Senere bad vi ham om referenceskrivelser (anbefaling) at kunne præsentere for Leadership Academy og en engelsk kirke.Han havde skrevet een til Daniela Skovs datter i 2011.Ingen af disse to papirer kommenterede han på, og ingen af dem skrev han.
Efter to år fandt vi ud af, at Jonas S,-P på basis af vores to blanketter med vores cpr-numre på havde fået os meldt ind i to folkekirker i Kolding i foråret 2012 imod vores vidende og vilje.
Vi var chokerede og forvirrede og rystede og Lars oplevede det som om , han var blevet udsat for et tyveri i sit eget hjem, fordi Jonas Serner- Pedersen havde brugt vore papirer med vore CPR numre på. Vi havde været indmeldte og dermed også betalt kirkeskat i 2 år. Vi havde selv været igennem en personlig proces i vore liv og valgt at lade os døbe med troens dåb og vi delte slet ikke den religion , Folkekirken står for , men havde valgt det helt fra og udmeldt os i henholdsvis 1997 og omkring 2007. Det var utrolig krænkende og et overgreb at blive påtvunget medlemskab af statens valgte version af verdens religionen kristendommen. Vi har frihed i flg. Grundloven i Danmark , at vælge vor personlige religion. Vi har heller ikke et legitimt medlemskab i de to år til trods for at vi uden vor viden indbetalte KIRKESKAT. Folkekirke medlemskab er på basis af barnedåbs TEOLOGIEN OG OVERØSNING AF VAND PÅ HOVEDET, såvidt vi forstår.
Jonas Serner- Pedersen har haft et tavsheds- / ignoreringsprojekt i forhold til os lige siden han blev fyret fra Kolding Valgmenighed. Han var hårdt ramt og i krise og meget ulykkelig , så det tog vi som een af mulige årsager til at han ikke magtede, at gøre sin del af administrative opgaver færdig for os.
Han har ikke vist nogen medviden eller medfølelse med den situation , vi stod i, hvorfor vi gentagne gange kontaktede ham.
Jonas i præstekjole og som den præst ,der forestod begravelse i august 2012 af Daniela Skovs nære veninde helt fra deres barndom, gav Daniela lang omfavnelse ,da han gik bag ved hendes veninde Mary Franks kiste , hvor han stopper op ud for Daniela da kisten bliver båret ud af kirken . Hun blev dybt chokeret over ,at han gør det foran alle i kirken ved begravelse og så oveni står han én måned efter hos Midt - og Vestjyllands Politi i HOLSTEBRO og hænger hende ud som stalker . Hun ",hører ikke til hans menighed!" citerer Politibetjent i telefonen " SOGNEPRÆST JONAS SERNER-PEDERSEN STÅR HER OG HAN SIGER , AT DU IKKE HØRER TIL I HANS MENIGHED!" Betjenten optræder meget vredt og hånligt og med politi brutalitet og og siger også hun er sigtet og alt er så uden varsel så Daniela Skov kommer til at lide af PTSD fra hele det traume.
Han OMFAVNEDE hende mere end én gang ved begravelsen og tidligere i tiden som hendes præst og vi har på skrift at han forår 2012 skriver: ”det kan desværre ikke blive noget med dig og mig!” Så kan Daniela ikke blive hængt ud som stalker 19/09 2012 hos politiet for han har også på skrift til os i maj 2012 at :" I er så gode mod mig." og han ville specifikt i april 2012 at DANIELA KOM OG BAD FOR HAM - det var 2 dage efter hans fyring.
Han siger direkte til Daniela på vej ud af døren, de følges ud efter at hun var nede i hans kontor og bede og lytte og tale med ham: " jeg elsker at snakke med dig, Daniela! Og du er den, der har hjulpet mig allermest!" Og: " jeg elsker når du har haft nogen med her ned på kontoret som vi har bedt for" Vi er i 100 procent god tro at Jonas bare smøler med papirer. Han kunne jo svare på mail, at han ikke ønskede at ordne dem, selvom det var ind under hans administrative del. De var formularer fra kirken påskrevet at præsten skulle tage imod dem. Vi havde tålmodigt bare regnet med han smølede, for det havde han jo selv talt med Daniela om. Hendes kvindelige læge sagde også at det Jonas udsatte hende for med at udsætte os pludselig for tavshed, " intet havde med dig Daniela at gøre! Det er Jonas ukonstruktive måde, at løse sine egne problemer på!" Jonas var i krise fra april og Daniela støttede ham virkelig og vi støttede ham så han skrev, " I er alt for gode mod mig!" Så er det chokerende at han siger til politiet, det erfarer vi først i sommer 2013, hvor vi til sidst får lov endelig at få Aktindsigt: Daniela omklamrede mig! ”: " jeg (Jonas) havde faktisk ondt af dem!"
Da vi fik tilholdet, blev Daniela spurgt, om hun ville komme til politiet til afhøring. Hun svarede ja, det ville hun gerne, men hun måtte have en læge med, for hun havde fået PTSD og angst af den behandling hun var blevet udsat for. Men konklusionen blev, at det havde hun ikke ønsket. Jeg blev slet ikke spurgt, om jeg ville komme til afhøring. Så vi har ikke haft mulighed for at blive hørt og vi er tildelt polititilhold og bødestraf UDEN FORHØR OG PARTSHØRING NOGENSINDE.
MVH Lars Krøgholt og Daniela Skov.
Lige én ting mere: Vi har sendt mails ud til en større gruppe, heriblandt ministerier, præster, biskopper og medier. Intet er hemmeligholdt. Vi har samlet det hele på hjemmesiden
http://sites/google.com/site/ytrings
Kære Kristine Garde
Jeg beklager, at jeg kom til at skrive forkert: Jurist Claus Juul fra Amnesty International skrev: "det er rigtigt, at I har mistet jeres retssikkerhed i Danmark". Det var i forbindelse med at den betjent, som ringede Daniela op om tilholdet, ikke ville identificere sig. I Amnesty Internationals blad var der lige derefter en artikel om, at det er et stort problem med betjente, som ikke er identificerbare. Jurist Claus Juul brugte ikke ordet legalitetsprincippet. Beklager, at jeg kom til at skrive at legalitetsprincippet var overtrådt.
Før vi var i retten i Holstebro var vi blevet rådet i retshjælpen i Kolding: 1. Vi skulle nægte at betale bøden, når den kom fra politiet. 2. Hun sagde, at sognepræst Jonas Serner-Pedersen ville være til stede ved retsmøde; så ville vi kunne blive hørt. Han skulle give sit udsagn. Han ville være i samme rum som os, selv om han havde tilhold, "for I er jo ikke farlige!" Men vi fik at vide i Holstebro, at sognepræst Jonas Serner-Pedersen ikke skulle være med. Vi forstår ikke, hvorfor alt er blevet så rodet, og hele tiden til sognepræst Jonas Serner-Pedersens umiddelbare fordel.
Med venlig hilsen Daniela Skov og Lars Skov Krøgholt
Vi fik senere denne mail fra Kristine Garde:
---------- Videresendte meddelelser ----------
Fra: Kristine Garde <kk.Garde@mail.tele.dk>
Dato: 13. december 2015 kl. 12.35
Emne: SV: Rettelse til netop tilsendt mail
Til: Lars Skov Krøgholt <lkrogholt@gmail.com>
Da jeg ikke kan hjælpe dig /jer i sagen om polititilholdet, som normalt varer 5 år, vil jeg venligst bede om, at du/I ikke sender flere mails til mig.
Med venlig hilsen
Kristine Garde
Hertil svarede Daniela
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Og endelig sendte vi denne mail til hende, og afsluttede dermed forsøget på at få hjælp fra Kristine Garde:
Kære Kristine Garde.
Som vi har skrevet, er vi i fuld offentlighed om det, vi skriver og sender, og vil ikke stikke noget under stolen. Derfor skal du vide, at vi har sendt mail den 10. december om, at vi kontakter retsteolog Kristine Garde. Vi var ved at sende det til dig, men så kom din mail. Det findes også på hjemmesiden https://sites.google.com/site/ytrings/2015/december/10-12-2015
Vi lover, at vi også sender dit svar til os ud, så ingen skal tro, at nu er du involveret.
Mvh. Daniela Skov og Lars Skov Krøgholt.
Det drejer sig om følgende:
Vi har gennem lange tider orienteret om den uret, vi er blevet udsat for af sognepræst Jonas Serner-Pedersen i Hjerm.
Det er gået op for os, at vi har brug for at kontakte retsteolog Kristine Garde. Hun har Ph.d. i præsteløftet, og vi vil gerne høre hendes opfattelse af, om præsteløftet kan bruges som løftestang til at få Jonas Serner-Pedersen til at gå i dialog med os, fjerne tilholdet mod os, og få orden i sit hus.
..... og resten af denne mail, som allerede er sendt ud.
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På et tidspunkt snakkede Daniela Skov i Simon Peters Kirke med Jørgen Pedersen som har været med i Kolding Valgmenighed i mange år sammen med sin kone Berit, angående vores medlemsskabssituation i Kolding Valgmenighed, om han vidste om vi var udmeldt, og om konflikten med Jonas. Han sagde først at han slet ikke mente vi var medlem. Det blev Daniela meget forskrækket over, for hun havde betalt medlemsbidrag og også stemt på årsmødet. Jørgen P. ville undersøge det. Han ville også tale med Jonas S-P. Hun sagde, at vi forstår ikke hvad det er for noget med Jonas S-P. Da Jørgen vendte tilbage til Daniela efter at have snakket med Jonas, sagde han fra Jonas med brysk stemmeføring, at vi havde skrevet eller sagt (Daniela husker ikke lige hvilket ord) så mange grimme ting om ham dengang (sommer 2012). Det er dog den værste løgn ud af Jonas’ mund. Vi hjalp ham den sommer, og det anerkendte han selv ved at skrive, at vi var så gode mod ham. Det er det, han har sagt foran os, men noget helt modsat bag ved vores ryg. Så forstår vi bedre, hvorfor vi er blevet så ugleset, og har følt os så bange når vi har oplevet folks reaktioner gennem årene. Vi så ikke nogen, og blev heller ikke opsøgt nogen fra Kolding Valgmenighed i sommeren 2012, og vi skrev heller ikke med nogen derfra, så hvordan Jonas kunne tro det? Hvis vi havde spredt grimme ting om Jonas, skulle de da have konfronteret os, eller i det mindste have ønsket at kontakte os på det grundlag. Med så stor en forsamling må der være nogen, der kan fortælle om, at sådan har de sagt til os. Sådan går vi slet ikke og tænker om dem fra Kolding Valgmenighed. Hvordan kan Jonas så få dem til at tro sådan om os? Det hedder del og hersk.
Spille folk ud mod hinanden!
HVORFOR??
Hvad kan borgerne i Hjerm risikere at være udsat for så?
Jonas er citeret i en artikel om forsoning i Dansk Oases blad ”OaseMag” i september 2015 for følgende: ”Jonas Serner-Pedersen vurderer, at der i mange menigheder er uenigheder og små fraktioner af splid, fordi man ”hygger” sig med at gå og snakke om hinanden i en negativ tone.”
Vi gengiver heruner hele den mail, vi skrev om denne artikel.
Hårde ord fra præster har gjort, at homoseksuelle ikke bryder sig om at komme i kirken i Danmark. Det er skrevet flere gange i Kristeligt Dagblad, at der ikke er så mange homoseksuelle, der bliver gift i kirken, fordi tonen har været så hård fra præster i debatten om homoseksuelle vielser i kirken.
I bl.a. Kristkirken i Kolding og mange andre kirkelige sammenhænge taler de til mennesker som er blevet gift igen på en meget hård måde. Alene det at opfinde gengifte som et begreb som bliver talt om på absolut negativ måde. Det bliver gradbøjet sammen med homoseksualitet og skilsmisse som synd af højeste grad. Splid, splittelse, sladder og bagtalelse bliver end ikke nævnt som et problem!
Når man er fraskilt og såkaldt gengift, et smædeord i kirkelige kredse, så bliver man fordømt meget, og det forårsager frygt og smerte og isolation ud af kirkelige fællesskaber.
Vi er blevet mødt med megen vrede og hårdhed fra præster og andre, fordi vi har sendt disse mails ud, så vi har undgået folk, og har været i en konstant sorgproces siden 2008.
Vi var frosset ude, Vi var bange for at gå over i Josvas skole, fordi der var forældre i klassen som enten var præster eller ledere i kirken. I foråret 2012 var der en forfærdelig splid i Kolding Valgmenighed fordi lederskabet holdt hemmelige møder om Jonas, og de sendte hemmelige mails ud til os alle, hvor der bl.a. stod, at det ikke ”var imod Jonas, det var for KOVA”. Folk var virkelig spillet ud mod hinanden. Det var forfærdeligt. Vi skulle så med Josva over at se skolekomedie, og vidste jo at vi skulle møde mange fra Kolding Valgmenighed. Vi magtede ikke at skulle derover, og så var det Josva, der sagde ”Kom nu mor og far. Det er min skole, der er ingen der skælder ud på jer der.”
HAN VAR 11 ÅR. Det er fuldstændig ubærligt og urimeligt hvad han var udsat for.
Vi har fra starten af den mærkelige proces med Jonas Serner-Pedersen talt om forsoning ud fra Matthæus 18. Af den årsag kontaktede vi præst Keld Dahlmann, Århus Valgmenighed. Vi havde hørt hans undervisning om forsoning på Århus Valgmenigheds hjemmeside. Vi var rigtig glade for at finde ud af at han havde den undervisning i Oase-sammenhænge. Vi havde så tillid til at han kunne hjælpe os med at få en samtale med vores valgmenighedspræst og ven, som vi jo også troede Jonas var. Så vi skrev til Keld Dahlmann i hvert fald to gange, men vi fik aldrig et svar tilbage. Vi blev fuldstændig ignoreret. Det var smertefuldt!!! Og helt uforståeligt!!! Kejseren har bare intet tøj på. Keld Dahlmann har ellers sagt, at Gud havde bedt ham om at betale prisen for efterfølgelse (discipelskab). Det har han fortalt i sit personlige vidnesbyrd.
Keld Dahlmanns undervisning om konfliktløsning er her:
Her er så vores respons på det, Jonas Serner-Pedersen udtalte sig til ”OaseMag” om forsoning:
Deres Majestæt!
Statsminister Lars Løkke Rasmussen
Justitsminister Søren Pind
Kirke- og Kulturminister Bertel Haarder
Finansminister Claus Hjort Frederiksen
Biskop Henrik Stubkjær
Provst Carsten Hoffmann
Som respons på interview med Sognepræst Jonas Serner-Pedersen gengivet herunder.
Tilsyn efterlyses!!! Borgere i Viborg Stift og i Provstiet og i HJERM
Sogn vil da føle sig FØRT BAG LYSET, når vi jo bliver nødt til at
sætte en kendt advokat ind som ikke er bange for at tage sager, der
handler om STATEN. Han går konkret efter at få polititilholdet
fjernet.
Din Sognepræst som du er TILSYNSFØRENDE FOR LEVER UD HELHJERTET
uforsonlighed mod os. På en måde som har HELT URIMELIGE KONSEKVENSER
FOR OS.
Jeg undlader ikke at blive gift med min kæreste og flytte med ham
til vores hus i Florida! Det får JONAS IKKE LOV AT ØDELÆGGE MED DET
POLITITILHOLD !
Det har vi heldigvis en forsvarsadvokat som vil hjælpe os med at få
fjernet - TILHOLDET, når nu min kæreste kommer hjem fra deployment i
sin ansættelse i NATO.
Gad nok vide hvad STIFTETS BORGERE SIGER, når de ERFARER at 2 danske
borgere er DØMT uden forudgående MULIGHED overhovedet for et FORHØR OG
POLITIET GIK OP IMOD LOVEN, ved at nægte os PARTSHØRING (forhør) selv, når Senioranklageren - den SENESTE STATSADVOKAT I VIBORG!!!!har
pålagt dem det. Lovbrud lovløshed løgne over hele linien -FØRE
MENIGHEDERNE BAG LYSET!
SÅ SKAMFULDT‼️‼️
Mvh Daniela Skov
Danielas og min fælles veninde falder over afsnittet i teksten, hvor han siger "Der er ikke noget så ”hyggeligt” som samtaleemner, hvor man kan hænge hinanden ud og høre om hinandens fejl". Men det er lige sådan han har gjort mod jer, siger hun. Vi synes bestemt ikke, der er noget hyggeligt ved at tale om hinanden på den måde. Der er så meget snak om homoseksuelle i kirken, men emnet sladder adresseres ikke. Det lyder som han synes det virkelig er hyggeligt. Vi forstår ikke, det overhovedet kan føles hyggeligt, for det forgifter fællesskabet. Hyggeligt er meget misvisende, når sladder er så fællesskabsødelæggende. Det skulle jo slet ikke komme bag på os. Paulus tager også alt det der ødelægger vores fællesskaber alvorligt, 2.Kor. 12:20: Jeg er nemlig bange for, at jeg ikke skal finde jer sådan, som jeg ønsker, når jeg kommer, og I heller ikke mig sådan, som I ønsker. Jeg frygter, at der vil være strid, misundelse, vrede, egoisme, bagtalelse, sladder, indbildskhed og forvirring.
Vi UNDRER os meget over, hvordan det kan være sådan at Dansk Oase beder Jonas Serner-Pedersen fabulere over emnet forsoning, mod bedre vidende, at han i praksis har en sag kørende, der både indbefatter politi, retten i Holstebro, Statsadvokaten i Viborg, folkeregister (hvem har misbrugt cpr-numre, Jonas, folkeregisteret eller en anden i ledelsen af Kolding Valgmenighed) og meget mere. Med hvilket motiv er han sat til at fortælle om disse ting?
Vi må formode, at Jonas føler, vi har gjort noget forkert mod ham. Hverken i det, han har fortalt politiet (som vi har fået aktindsigt i) eller fra det andre kirkekristne har sagt til os, kommer det frem, at der overhovedet skulle være noget hos ham, der har foranlediget tilhold mod os og bagtalelse af os. Vi skrev mange gange i starten (inden tilholdet), hvor meget Jesus lægger vægt på forsoning
I Mattæus 5,23f siger Jesus "Når du derfor bringer din gave til alteret, og der kommer i tanker om, at din broder har noget imod dig, så lad din gave blive ved alteret og gå først hen og forlig dig med din broder; så kan du komme og bringe din gave.
Når Jonas Serner-Pedersen formulerer denne nødvendighed af forsoning og tilgivelse, siger han
Det er bare ikke altid, at man kan regne med at få en undskyldning, og så skal man huske, at vi er kaldet til at tilgive folk, uanset om de siger undskyld eller ej, siger Jonas.
Vi kan ikke sige undskyld, for vi må ikke henvende os. Jeg har ikke nogen fornemmelse af, at Jonas har forsonet sig med os eller tilgivet os, for han har effektivt lagt låg på enhver mulighed for dialog. Vi forstår overhovedet ikke, at han aldrig har ønsket at tale med os. Jeg kan ikke andet end føle det han siger er falsk, for hans liv modsiger det, han prædiker her.
Det er et faktum, at vi helt fra starten har ønsket dialog samtidig med at vi har bedt om at få nogle dokumenter fra ham. Vi fik ikke et svar, som modsvarede det vi efterspurgte, og så endte det med polititilhold fra hans side.
Jeg har forlængst tilgivet Jonas, og jeg beder for ham. Men hvordan kan man skabe forsoning uden dialog. Giver det mening at vi hver især siger til os selv "Jeg tilgiver dig i mit hjerte. Nu er vi forsonet"?? Nej, det gør det ikke, for det er ikke det, Jesus siger "gå først hen og forlig dig med din broder; så kan du komme og bringe din gave". Aktiv handling, en udstrakt hånd fra den, som kan se at den anden har noget imod ham/hende. Den hånd har vi rakt ud fra starten, men Jonas har aldrig taget imod den.
Mvh Lars Skov Krøgholt
Man får indtryk af, at her er en mand, som virkelig har noget at sige: "Jonas Serner-Pedersen lægger kontant ud og går lige til sagen !"
Link til artiklen:
Helligåndens arbejde med forsoning er noget af det mest irriterende, Gud gør i vores liv !
Tekst: Dorte Fromsejer Hartig. Fotos: Emilie Bak Toldam.
Jonas Serner-Pedersen lægger kontant ud og går lige til sagen !
- Når nogen sårer os, så har vi lyst til at dyrke den uretfærdige handling, som er sket. Det føles rart, når man giver udtryk for, at ”de andre er dumme og vi er gode”. Men når Helligånden kalder os ind i forsoning, så kalder han os samtidig til at give slip. Og det er voldsomt irriterende, for det er meget rarere at dvæle i uretfærdigheden end at slippe den, mener Jonas Serner-Pedersen.
Jonas Serner-Pedersen er 39 år gammel og sognepræst i Hjerm tæt ved Struer og Holstebro, hvor han har haft embede i 3 år. Før det var han præst i Kolding Valgmenighed. Jonas er gift med Maria. Vi møder ham for at høre om hans syn på Helligåndens arbejde med forsoning og hans oplevelser med dette i eget liv og i kirken.
- Jeg vil gerne uddybe, hvorfor det er så irriterende, når Helligånden arbejder i os med emnet ”forsoning”. Ved forsoning med andre giver vi afkald på vores ret til at være vrede og bitre. Og det leder mig videre til tilgivelse. Når vi skal tilgive, så føles det altid uretfærdigt. Men det skyldes, at kristendommen ikke er retfærdig. Gud har givet os nåden, og den har vi ikke fortjent, siger Jonas Serner-Pedersen.
- Det er svært at forsone sig med andre og tilgive andre, når vores retfærdighedssans påminder os om ”Noget-for-noget-princippet”. Men Gud ønsker det anderledes og ved at give os, hvad vi ikke fortjener - nemlig den uretfærdige kærlighed og nåde - så forventer han, at vi gør det samme overfor hinanden. Han bruger princippet ”Nåde-over-nåde”, og dette virker, hvis man vil forsone sig med andre, siger Jonas Serner-Pedersen.
Ordene ”Nåde over nåde” kommer fra Johannes 1, 16 : ”Af hans fylde har vi alle modtaget, og det nåde over nåde”. Disse ord ”Nåde over nåde” er ikke fremmede ord for Jonas, og de betyder meget for ham, idet han og hustruen har fået dem indskrevet i deres vielsesringe.
- Man vil aldrig kunne vinde nogen for Kristus med et ”Noget-for-noget-princip”. Men man kan vinde hele verden med et ”Nåde-over-nåde-princip”. Dog skal man først selv modtage dette, og det gør man ved at lade sig fylde af Guds kærlighed og nærvær, og at give sig selv lov til at smage Guds nåde i sit liv, opfordrer Jonas.
- Som bekendt har vi - Adam og Eva - spist af Kundskabens Træ og kan derfor godt lide at dømme, hvad der er godt og ondt. Det er vores stolthed og vores selvtiltrækkelighed, som tillader os dette. Helligånden kalder os dog til at holde op med at dømme, og det kan godt være svært at efterleve, når man bliver såret og står tilbage med en ”bitterhedens fristelse”. Men vi har et ansvar for og et valg omkring, hvordan vort hjerte reagerer på uretfærdighed, siger Jonas og fortsætter
- Jeg har selv været i situationer, hvor jeg skulle vælge i mit hjerte, om jeg ville give slip, eller om jeg ville træde ind i bitterheden og favne den. Bitterhed kommer kun, når man gør plads til den. Det er fristende at svælge i bitterhed, og det er utroligt irriterende at skulle give slip på den, siger Jonas.
- Kun med Helligåndens hjælp kan vi tilgive og forsone os med andre. Min erfaring er, at hvis man kan give slip på at dvæle i uretfærdighedens bitterhed, så bringer det glæde med sig og giver overskud i livet, forklarer Jonas.
Jonas Serner-Pedersen mindes en oplevelse fra tidligere, hvor han følte sig uretfærdigt behandlet.
- Bitterhedens fristelse var en reel fristelse for mig i den periode, men efter en rum tid blev jeg kontaktet, og da var der én, der bad om tilgivelse. Det gjorde en verden til forskel for mig, og jeg opdagede, at man kan blive forsonet igen, selv når alt ser håbløst ud. Men jeg må erkende, at tilgivelse bedst kan håndteres, når folk angrer og siger undskyld. Det er bare ikke altid, at man kan regne med at få en undskyldning, og så skal man huske, at vi er kaldet til at tilgive folk, uanset om de siger undskyld eller ej, siger Jonas.
Jonas Serner-Pedersen vurderer, at der i mange menigheder er uenigheder og små fraktioner af splid, fordi man ”hygger” sig med at gå og snakke om hinanden i en negativ tone.
- Der er ikke noget så ”hyggeligt” som samtaleemner, hvor man kan hænge hinanden ud og høre om hinandens fejl. Men der er ikke noget som kritik og bagtalelse, der kan standse en vækkelse og forhindre, at Guds rige vokser. Derfor er det vigtigt, at man i kirken bærer over med hinanden og er varsom med kritik. Naturligvis kan der være situationer, hvor man må gå i rette med hinanden for at hjælpe på vej. Men man skal huske, at det skal gøres ud af kærlighed, for at det kan virke, siger Jonas.
- Mit ønske er, at vi bliver bedre til at lade barmhjertigheden triumfere over dommen af vore medmennesker. At vi lader nåden triumfere over retfærdigheden. Og det kan kun ske med Helligåndens hjælp. Jeg tænker på Salme 133 :
”Hvor er det godt og herligt, når brødre sidder sammen ! Det er som den gode olie på hovedet, der flyder ned over skægget, over Arons skæg, ned over kjortlens halsåbning. Det er som Hermons dug, der falder på Zions bjerge. For dér giver Herren velsignelsen, livet i al evighed”.
- Det er, når man er sammen i enhed og forsoning, at Gud giver velsignelsen. Olien er Guds nærvær. Når vi formår at ære hinanden og vise hinanden barmhjertighed, så vil Guds nærvær flyde imellem os, og så kan Guds rige vokse. Gennem bøn for hinanden når man langt. For det er svært at dømme nogen, som man beder for, slutter Jonas Serner-Pedersen.■
BILAG: KONFLIKTTRAPPEN
Vi lærte om dette på socialrådgiveruddannelsen: Modellen er udviklet i Nordirland som et billede på, hvordan alle konflikter – både dem mellem to mennesker, mellem grupper og mellem nationer – udvikler sig, hvis ingen griber ind. (Daniela)
Link til artiklen
Der findes ikke to ens fingeraftryk, og ikke to ens konflikter. Det enkelte menneske, den enkelte kultur eller subkultur og den samfundsmæssige sammenhæng sætter sit præg på hver enkelt konflikt. Enhver konflikt er unik, uanset på hvilket plan eller i hvilken sammenhæng, den befinder sig. Det kan være i det enkelte menneske, mellem to personer, mellem grupper, lokalt, samfundsmæssigt eller internationalt.
Alligevel lader det til, at der findes et mønster for destruktiv optrapning, en slags drejebog, som vi optræder efter, når vi farer vild og fortaber os i konflikten. Den synes at være næsten universel. At være bevidst om drejebogen, at kende til konflikters udviklingsforløb gør, at vi har mulighed for at overveje, om vi vil spille med i tragediens givne roller eller ej.
Konflikttrappen er den mest kendte model til forståelse af konflikter.
Modellen er udviklet i Nordirland som et billede på, hvordan alle konflikter – både dem mellem to mennesker, mellem grupper og mellem nationer – udvikler sig, hvis ingen griber ind.
Her har vi den “rene” konflikt, hvor parterne er uenige om, hvordan de skal forholde sig eller handle. Når de bliver enige, er problemet løst og der er ingen konflikt. Men det kan ske, at der kommer støj på linjen – en af parterne kommer måske til at træde ved siden af den saglige konfliktløsning, og situationen udvikler sig.
Vigtig grænse mellem uoverensstemmelse og personificering: Denne grænse er afgørende. Når den er passeret, kan den dårlige stemning og forvirringen hurtigt optrappes. Der sker ofte det, at den ene part begynder at bebrejde, true, fornærme el.lign., og den anden følger efter.
Det er især omkring denne grænse, at træningen i at nedtrappe konflikter nytter. Det er lige her, man kan overveje, hvordan man vil reagere på aggressionen og prøve at gøre det på en måde, som afspænder uden at man giver køb på sige mål.
Det er lige netop ved denne grænse, at den fatale (og normale) sammenblanding af sag og person sker. Man begynder at ”gå efter manden i stedet for efter bolden.”
Nu er det ikke længere sagen, der er problemet, men den anden. Det er den andens skyld, og de negative følelser overfor den anden, som irritation, frygt og forvirring, begynder at ødelægge den indbyrdes kontakt. Vi bebrejder, angriber, forsvarer os, føler os forvirrede, angrebne og utilpasse. Vi mistænkeliggør hinandens hensigter og begynder at stemple den andens karakter.
Det er nu, vi går i arkiverne og finder gamle sager og fortilfælde frem. Vi kommer i tanke om, at ”det ikke er første gang…”. Vi husker pludselig andre episoder og andre brist og fejl hos den anden. Gammel uret og gamle, uafsluttede konflikter dukker frem.
Vigtig grænse mellem ”problemet vokser” og ”samtale opgives”: Det at opgive at tale sammen har konsekvenser, der er svære at overskue. Når samtalen er opgivet og kontakten er afbrudt, kan alt ske, for det er netop kontakten mellem parterne, der kan rette op på det dårlige forhold. At opretholde kontakten – mellem to mennesker eller mellem større grupper i konflikt – er en af de vigtigste konfliktløsende handlinger, man kan foretage. Uanset hvor besværligt og ubehageligt det kan være.
De negative følelser indsnævrer tankebanerne. Vi kommunikerer upræcist, og begge parter forvrænger, hvad den anden siger. Man kan heller ikke holde ud at høre, hvad den anden siger. Efterhånden bliver det for ubehageligt at være sammen med den anden, og sproget slår tydeligvis ikke til. Vi har jo sagt det 117 gange - det nytter ikke!
Vi begynder at undgå at tale med hinanden – i stedet taler vi mere og mere om hinanden til andre. Vi kommunikerer med handling, undlader at hilse, gaber når den anden siger noget til et møde, undgår øjenkontakt, vender ryggen til, og det, der er værre.
Vi søger forbundsfæller, danner partier. At tale om hinanden i stedet for med hinanden er et sikkert tegn på tilspidsning, men er det altid optrappende? Ikke nødvendigvis, det kommer an på hensigten, måden og resultatet. En samtale med en anden om konflikten kan være klargørende og åbnende, eller lukkende, stemplende og fordummende. At være den, der taler med et menneske om en krise, er en af de allervigtigste roller i konfliktarbejde og måske også den hyppigste.
Den oprindelige sag er nu gledet i baggrunden eller helt glemt. Tankerne om den anden part i konflikten er nu så unuancerede, at man ikke længere kan se noget positivt med ham, hende eller dem. I meget alvorlige konflikter, som f.eks. borgerkrige, sker der ofte en dehumanisering på dette trin. Modparten bliver fremstillet som primitive, vilde, onde, brutale, følelseskolde, fremmede, tyvagtige osv. og det kan bane vejen for grusomheder, der i alle andre forhold ligger langt på den anden side af, hvad parterne kan stå inde for.
På dette trin er målet magt. Man vil have ret hele vejen igennem. Ikke noget med aftaler eller kompromiser med den anden part, det eneste, der har interesse, er en uforbeholden undskyldning, en indrømmelse, total overgivelse. Vi er blevet fundamentalister.
Nu er vejen banet for:
Vi kan ikke længere se modstanderne som mennesker af samme slags som os, mennesker, som dybest set ønsker fred og rimelighed - mennesker som lider ved konflikten. Derfor kan vi skride til åbne, fjendtlige handlinger, fysisk og psykisk.
Ved større konflikter mellem grupper er det nu ekstremister, der varetager kontakten. Deres opfattelse af fjenden har kun lidt med virkeligheden at gøre. Deres mål helliger midlerne. Moderate personer bliver udgrænset i begge lejre, fordi de stadig ser ”fjenden” som mennesker, fordi de ønsker forhandling og prøver at se sagen fra begge sider. De bliver ofte set som forrædere, naive, upålidelige.
Nu kan parterne ikke længere være på samme sted. Det er skilsmissernes, fyringernes, opsigelsernes, flugtens og ghettodannelsernes tid. Man flygter eller jages væk. Det bedste der så kan ske er, at parterne ikke længere har kontakt, det værste at de fortsætter kampen på afstand. Et eksempel er dårligt håndterede skilsmisser, hvor forældrene bruger venner og børn som våben mod hinanden.
Konflikttrappen er ikke en naturlov, men et grundmønster, som forekommer, og som er forudsigeligt, medmindre man vælger at handle anderledes. Mønstret kan genfindes på alle niveauer: Individuelt, gruppe- og samfunds¬mæssigt og internationalt. Men det foregår ikke i et lufttomt rum. Især større samfundsmæssige konflikter er underlagt den overordnede kamp om ressourcer og politisk magt.
Eskaleringen må desuden altid tænkes sammen med magt, retfærdighed, etik og menneskerettigheder.
Modellen forklarer ikke hvorfor og hvordan krige (direkte vold) og undertrykkelse (indirekte vold) opstår. Her er det nemlig andre faktorer, der er på spil. Erich Fromm udtrykker det således:
“Krige opstår ikke af menneskets destruktivitet, men er planlagt af ledere for at opnå bestemte formål.”
/kt
Kilde: Konflikt og Kontakt / Kompendium 2000, CfK.
ENGLISH TRANSLATION
Resolution of conflicts: Matthew 18:15-17 under the specific guidance of Jesus: “15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.”
At one point Daniela Skov talked in Simon Peter's Church with Jørgen Pedersen who has been a member in Kolding Valgmenighed church for many years together with his wife, Berit, regarding our membership situation in Kolding Valgmenighed whether he knew whether we were announced, and about the conflict with Jonas. He said that he did not think first we were members. It made Daniela very shocked, because she had paid membership fees and also voted at the annual meeting. Jørgen P. would investigate it. He would also talk to Jonas S-P. She said that we do not understand what it all is with Jonas S-P. When Jørgen returned to Daniela after having talked with Jonas, he said from Jonas with brusque voice tone that we had written or said (Daniela does not remember just what word) so many nasty things about him back then (summer 2012). However, it is the worst lie out of Jonas's mouth. We helped him that summer, and he acknowledged it he himself by writing that we were so good to him. It is what he has said in front of us, but something quite the opposite behind our backs. So we understand better why we have become so frowned upon, and have felt so scared when we have experienced people's reactions over the years. We saw no one and were also not sought out of someone from Kolding Valgmenighed church in summer of 2012, and nor did we write with anyone from there, so how could Jonas believe that? If we had spread the ugly things about Jonas, would they have confronted us; or at least, have wanted to contact us on that basis. With such a large Assembly, there must be someone who can tell you about that is how they told us. Such we do not at all think about them from Kolding Valgmenighed. How can then Jonas get them to believe like that about us? It's called divide and conquer.
Play people off against each other!
WHY??
What can citizens in Hjerm risk to be exposed to then?
Jonas is quoted in an article about reconciliation in Danish Oase's magazine "OaseMag" in september 2015 for the following: "Jonas Serner-Pedersen estimates that in many congregations are disagreements and small fractions of discord, because they are " having fun " to go and talk about each other in a negative tone."
We reproduce the whole of the mail, we wrote about this article below.
Harsh words from pastors have done, that homosexuals do not like to come into the Church in Denmark. It is written several times in Kristeligt Dagblad newspaper, that there are not so many gay, who will be married in the Church, because the tone has been so tough from pastors in the debate on gay marriages in the Church.
In, among other things. Christ Church in Kolding and many other ecclesiastical contexts, you talk to people who have been married again in a very hard way. [Here is a discussion of the Danish word for re-marry]. The re-marry issue is much bent along with homosexuality and divorce as a sin of the highest degree. Discord, Division, gossip and scandal are not even mentioned as a problem!
When one is divorced and so re-married, an invective in ecclesiastical circles, so you will be condemned very much, and it causes fear and pain and isolation out of the ecclesiastical communities.
We have been met with a great deal of anger and hardness from pastors and others because we've sent these emails out, so we have avoided people, and has been in a constant grieving process since 2008.
We were frozen out, we were afraid to go over in Josva’s school because there were parents in the class as were either pastor or leaders in the Church. In the spring of 2012, there was a terrible rift in Kolding Valgmenighed church because leadership held secret meetings about Jonas, and they sent secret messages out to us all, which, among other thing said, that it was not " against Jonas, it was for Kolding Valgmenighed". People were really played off against each other. It was terrible. We had to go with Joshua to the school to see school comedy, and knew that we were going to meet many from Kolding Valgmenighed. We could not manage going there, and then it was Josva who said "come on mom and dad. This is my school, there is no one who scolds out upon you there. "
HE was 11 years old. It is very unbearable and unfair what he was exposed to.
We have from the beginning of the strange process of Jonas Serner-Pedersen talked about reconciliation based on Matthew 18. For this reason, we contacted pastor Keld Dahlmann, Aarhus Valgmenighed church. We had heard his teaching on reconciliation on the Aarhus Valgmenighed’s website. We were really happy to find out that he had the teaching in Dansk Oase context. We had such confidence that he could help us to have a conversation with our pastor and friend, which we also thought Jonas was. So we wrote to Keld Dahlmann at least two times, but we never got an answer back. We were completely ignored. It was painful!!! And completely incomprehensible!!! The emperor just has no clothes on. Keld Dahlmann has otherwise said that God had asked him to pay the price for following Jesus (discipleship). He has told that in his personal testimony.
Here is our response to that, which Jonas Serner-Pedersen talked about in "OaseMag" on reconciliation:
Supervision calls!!! Citizens of Viborg Diocese and in the Deanery stayed silent and in HJERM Parish will feel DECEIVED, when we will need to
put a known lawyer in who is not afraid to take cases that
is about the State. He specifically goes after getting the police restraining measures
removed.
Bishop Henrik Stubkjær - Your vicar of whom you are SUPERVISOR is WHOLEHEARTEDLY LIVING OUT intransigence against us. In a way that has absolutely UNFAIR CONSEQUENCES FOR US.
I fail not getting married with my boyfriend and move with him
to our House in Florida! That will JONAS NOT BE ALLOWED to DESTROY with THAT
POLICE RESTRAINING ORDER!
Fortunately we have a defense attorney who will help us get removed-the ESTRANGEMENT MEASURES when now my boyfriend comes home from deployment in
his appointment IN NATO.
I wonder what DIOCESE CITIZENS SAY, when they learn that 2 Danish citizens have been convicted without any prior POSSIBILITY whatsoever for an INTERROGATION and The POLICE WENT UP AGAINST the LAW, by denying us PARTY HEARING (interrogation) even when Senior Prosecutor-the latest PUBLIC PROSECUTOR in VIBORG!!!! Has imposed on them to do so. Breach of law, lawlessness across the line-OUT
LEAD THE CHURCHES BEHIND THE LIGHT!
SO SHAMEFUL ‼ ‼
Kind regards Daniela Skov
Daniela's and my mutual friend falls over the section of the text, where he says "there's nothing så "cozy" as conversation topics, where you hang each other out and learn about each other's fault". But it is just how he has done against you, she says. We certainly do not think that there is something cozy by talking about each other in that way. There is so much talk about homosexuals in the Church, but the topic of gossip not addressable. It sounds like he thinks it is cozy. We do not understand it at all can feel cozy, for it is poisoning for the community. Cozy is very misleading when gossip is so devastating in the community. It should not be foreign to us. Paul also takes all that destroys our communities seriously,
2 Corinthians. 12:20: For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults;.
We are amazed at how it can be so that Dansk Oase asks Jonas Serner-Pedersen delve into on the subject of reconciliation, against better judgement, that he has a case running in practice, which both include the police, the public prosecutor in the Court of first instance in Holstebro, Viborg, the civil registry (who has misused social security numbers, Jonas, the population register or another in the management of the Kolding Valgmenighed) and much more. With which motive is he put in the magazine to tell about these things?
We must assume that Jonas Serner-Pedersen feels we have done nothing wrong against him. Neither in what he has told the police (as we have been given access to) or from what other church Christians have told us, it emerges that there should be anything with him, which gave rise to the restraining order against us and slander against us. We wrote many times in the beginning (before the restraining measures), how much Jesus puts the emphasis on reconciliation
In Matthew 5,23f Jesus says “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift
When Jonas Serner-Pedersen articulates this necessity of reconciliation and forgiveness, he says
It just isn't always that we can count on to get an apology, and we should remember that we are called to forgive people regardless of whether they say sorry or not, says Jonas.
We cannot say sorry, for we may not contact him. I don't have any feeling that Jonas has reconciled himself with us or forgiven us, for he has effectively put a lid on any possibility of dialogue. We do not at all understand, that he never wanted to talk to us. I cannot but feel that what he says is false, for his life contradicts what he preaches here.
It is a fact that from the very beginning we've wanted dialogue while at the same time we've asked to get some documents from him. We did not get a response, which corresponded to what we requested, and so in the end the police restraining order from his side.
I have long since forgiven Jonas, and I pray for him. However, how can we bring about reconciliation without dialogue? Does it make sense to each of us saying to ourselves "I forgive you in my heart. Now we are reconciled "?? No, it doesn't, because that is not what Jesus says "First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift ". Active action, an outstretched hand from the one who can see that the other has something against him/her. This hand we have given out from the start, but Jonas has never received it.
Kind regards Lars Skov Krøgholt
Clip from the “Dansk Oase” journal "Oasenyt", september 2015
The Holy Spirit's work of reconciliation
The Holy Spirit's work on reconciliation is something of the most annoying, God does in our lives !
Text: Dorte FromSejer Hartig. Photos: Emilie Bak Toldam.
Jonas Serner-Pedersen goes straight to the point !
-When someone hurts us, we want to cultivate the unjust action, which has happened. It feels nice when one expresses that "the others is stupid and we are good". But when the Holy Spirit calls us into reconciliation, so he called us at the same time to let go. And it's tremendously irritating, because it is much nicer to dwell in injustice than to let it go, believes Jonas Serner-Pedersen.
Jonas Serner-Pedersen is 39 years old and vicar in Hjerm close at Struer and Holstebro, where he has held office for three years. Before that, he was pastor of the Kolding Valgmenighed. Jonas is married to Maria. We meet him to hear about his vision of the Holy Spirit's work of reconciliation and his experiences with this in his own life and in the Church.
-I would like to elaborate on why it is so annoying when the Holy Spirit is working in us with the topic "reconciliation". At the reconciliation with others, we give up our right to be angry and bitter. And this brings me on to forgiveness. When we have to forgive, it always feels unfair. However, it is due to the fact that Christianity is not fair. God has given us the grace, and that we have not deserved, says Jonas Serner-Pedersen.
The unjust love
-It is difficult to reconcile with others and forgive others when our sense of Justice reminds us of "Something-for-something-principle". But God wants it differently and by giving us what we don't deserve-namely the unjust love and grace-so he expects that we do the same thing to each other. He uses the principle of "Grace-for-grace", and this works, if you want to reconcile itself with the other, says Jonas Serner-Pedersen.
We must savor the grace of God
The words "Grace of grace" comes from John 1, 16 : " And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace". These words "Grace for grace" is not alien words for Jonas, and they mean a lot to him, as he and his wife have them engraved in their wedding rings.
-You will never be able to win anyone for Christ with a "Something-for-something-principle". But you can win the whole world with a "Grace-for-grace-principle". However, one must first even receive this, and this is done by letting God's love and presence fill us, and to give us permission to taste God's grace in our life, calls on Jonas.
Letting go of bitterness's temptation
-As you know, we have -Adam and Eve - eaten of the tree of knowledge and, therefore, we like to judge what is good and evil. It is our pride and our self-sufficiency, which allows us this. The Holy Spirit calls us, however, to keep up with the judging, and it may well be difficult to comply with, when you are wounded and are left with a "bitter's temptation". But we have a responsibility and a choice about how our heart responds to injustice, says Jonas and continues
-I myself have been in situations where I had to choose in my heart, if I would let go, or if I would step into bitterness and embrace it. The bitterness comes only when you make room for it. It is tempting to wallow in bitterness, and it's incredibly annoying to have to let go of it, says Jonas.
-Only with the help of the Holy Spirit can we forgive and reconcile us with the other. My experience is that if you can let go of dwelling in injustice’s bitterness, so it brings joy with them and generating a surplus in life, explains Jonas.
Forgiveness and reconciliation
Jonas Serner-Pedersen recalls an experience from the past, where he felt unfairly treated.
-Bitterness's temptation was a real temptation for me in that period, but after some time I was contacted, and then there was one who asked for forgiveness. It made a world of a difference for me, and I discovered that you can be reconciled again, even when things look hopeless. But I must acknowledge that forgiveness can be best handled when people repent and say sorry. It just isn't always that we can count on to get an apology, and we should remember that we are called to forgive people regardless of whether they say sorry or not, says Jonas.
"Chat" in the churches can prevent revival
Jonas Serner-Pedersen estimates that in many congregations are disagreements and small fractions of discord, because they are "having fun" to go and talk about each other in a negative tone.
-There is no such thing as "cozy" as conversation topics, where you can hang each other out and learn about each other's mistakes. Nevertheless, there's nothing like criticism and slander, which can stop a revival and prevent growth in the Kingdom of God. It is therefore important that we in the Church are forbearing towards each other and are cautious with criticism. Of course, there may be situations where one must go in right with each other to help on the way. But we must remember that it has to be done out of love, in order that it may work, says Jonas.
Grace’s triumph over justice
-My wish is that we will be better to let mercy triumph over the judgment of our fellow human beings. That we let grace triumph over justice. And it can only happen with the help of the Holy Spirit. I am thinking of Psalm 133 :
" Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious oil upon the head, Running down on the beard, The beard of Aaron, Running down on the edge of his garments. It is like the dew of Hermon, Descending upon the mountains of Zion; For there the Lord commanded the blessing—Life forevermore. "
-It is when we are together in unity and reconciliation that God gives the blessing. The oil is the presence of God. When we manage to honor each other and show each other mercy, so will God's presence float among us, and so can the Kingdom of God grow. Through prayer for each other you are reaching far out. For it is hard to convict someone, as you pray for, joining Jonas Serner-Pedersen. ■
ADDENDUM - THIS IS ENTIRELY MACHINE TRANSLATED
There are not two similar fingerprints, and no two similar conflicts. The individual, the individual culture or subculture and the societal context puts its mark on every single conflict. Every conflict is unique, no matter at what level or in which context, the find themselves. It may be in the individual, between two people, between groups, local, civic or internationally.
Anyway, it seems that there is a pattern of destructive escalation, a kind of scenario that we act for when we get lost and get lost in the conflict. It seems to be almost universal. Being conscious about the screenplay, to know of the conflict development processes means that we have the opportunity to consider whether we want to play with in the tragedy given roles or not.
Conflict the stairs is the most well known model for understanding conflicts.
The model is developed in Northern Ireland as a picture of how all conflicts – both them between two people, between groups and between Nations – develops, if no one intervenes.
Here we have the "pure" conflict where the parties disagree on how they should behave or act. When they agree, the problem is resolved and there is no conflict. But it can happen, that there will be noise on the line – one of the parties may come to stand beside the substantive conflict resolution, and the situation is evolving.
Important border between discrepancy and personalization: This limit is crucial. Once it's passed, can the bad mood and confusion quickly stepped up. It often happens that one party starts to blame, threaten, offend etc., and the second will follow.
It is especially around this limit, to exercise in de-escalating conflicts is useless. It is right here, we can consider how we will react to the aggression and to try to do it in a way that relaxes without giving purchases on say goals.
It is exactly at this border, to the fatal (and normal) mixing of matter and the person is done. You start to "go after the man instead of after the ball."
Now it is no longer the case, that is the problem, but the second. It's the other's fault, and the negative feelings towards the other, such as irritation, fear and confusion, begins to destroy the intercommunication. We criticize, attack, defend us, feel confused, challenged and uncomfortable. We who arouses suspicions in each other's intentions and begins to stamp the other's character.
It is now, we go into the archives and find old cases and precedents. We come in the idea that "it is not the first time ...". We remember all of a sudden other episodes and other flaw and error with the other. Old agency and old, unresolved conflicts resurfaces.
Important border between "the problem grows" and "call abandonment": It is to give up talking together have consequences that are difficult to predict. When the conversation is abandoned and the contact is interrupted, everything can happen, because it is precisely the contact between the parties that can rectify the poor conditions. To maintain contact – between two people or between larger groups in conflict – is one of the most important conflict-solving actions you can perform. No matter how inconvenient and uncomfortable it can be.
The negative emotions narrows tanks cars. We communicate imprecise, and both sides distort what the other says. Nor can we stand to hear what the other says. Eventually it becomes too uncomfortable to be with the other, and the language clearly does not turn on. We have said it 117 times-it is no good!
We begin to avoid talking to each other – instead we are talking more and more about each other to the other. We communicate with action, fail to greet, yawn when the second says something to a meeting, avoids eye contact, turning its back on, and worse.
We are looking for allies, forming political parties. To talk about each other instead of with each other is a sure sign of taper, but it is always optrappende? Not necessarily, it depends on the purpose, method and result. A conversation with another of the conflict can be ready and opening or closing, stemplende and fordummende. To be the one who is talking to a man about a crisis, is one of the most important roles in conflict work and perhaps also the most frequent.
The original case has now slipped into the background or completely forgotten. The idea of the other party to the conflict is now so simplistic that you no longer can see something positive with him, her or them. In very serious conflicts, such as. civil wars, often a dehumanization of this step. The other party will be portrayed as primitive, wild, vicious, brutal, emotionally cold, alien, thieving etc. and it can pave the way for atrocities in all other circumstances is far on the other side of what the parties can vouch for.
At this stage, the goal is power. You will have the right all the way through. No agreements or compromises with the other party, the only one who has an interest, is an unreserved apology, an admission, total surrender. We have become fundamentalists.
Now is the way paved for:
We can no longer see the opponents as the people of the same kind as us, people who basically want peace and fairness-people who are suffering in the conflict. We can therefore proceed to open, hostile acts, physically and psychologically.
By major conflicts between groups, it is now the extremists responsible for the contact. Their perception of the enemy has little to do with reality. Their goal justifies the means. Moderate people will be udgrænset in both camps, because they still see "the enemy" as human beings, because they would debate and try to view the matter from both sides. They are often seen as traitors, naïve, unreliable.
Now, the parties may no longer be in the same place. It is skilsmissernes, fyringernes, opsigelsernes, brain-drain and ghetto dannelsernes time. To flee or being chased away. The best that can happen is so that the parties no longer have contact, the worst that they continue the fight from a distance. An example is poorly handled divorces where parents using friends and children as a weapon against each other.
Conflict stairs is not a law of nature, but a basic pattern that occurs and that is predictable, unless we choose to act differently. The pattern can be found at all levels: Individual, group and society ¬ regularly and internationally. But it does not take place in a vacuum. In particular, major social conflicts are subject to the overall struggle for resources and political power.
The escalation must also always be together with power, justice, ethics and human rights.
The model does not explain why and how wars (direct violence) and repression (indirect violence) occurs. Here are the other factors at play. Erich Fromm puts it as follows:
"Wars does not occur by human destructiveness, but is planned by leaders to accomplish specific purposes."
/kt
Source: Conflict and Contact/Compendium 2000, CfK.
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ENGLISH TRANSLATION
Our youngest son who is now 15 years has chosen to go to church on Sundays in Church in the City at Lykkegårdsvej road in Kolding. He chose he would be Youth blessed there and the ceremony was held in March 2015. We are his parents who taught him from when he was little to come to church. He does it entirely on his own initiative. But anyway, he is prone to pain and harassment by pastors up there. Both in the Pentecostal and Apostolic, he was exposed to PSYCHOLOGICAL STRESS BECAUSE WE HIS PARENTS were SUBJECTED to VERBAL HARASSMENT and HAD to stop PARTICIPATING. Lars Krøgholt had been adult baptized in 2007 in the CHURCH in the CITY and had BECOME a MEMBER there and I was adult baptized in 1997 in the Pentecostal Church in Esbjerg and had MEMBERSHIP for a while in KOLDING CHURCH CENTRE (PENTECOSTAL CHURCH). Our son would so much like to attend the children's group with his friends at their come together each week. Just as he would on Sunday and to be together with the children in the Church.
It hit Josva that we did not join him in church. It made him sorry and stressed.
It began in Kolding Church center in 2008-09. We could not get into the Church without meeting verbal harassment from Lone Ambæk and her friend Susanne Larsen for a longer period of time, so I would actually stop the Sunday before the event we now describe.
Harassment happened several times even in front of others in the Church, so it is not without witnesses. My mother aged over 80 years was a guest that Sunday.
It was the second last Sunday we got there and she was so appalled by Lone AMBÆK’S behavior against her and against me and I wept so much. She said that I "never had to go into that CHURCH!" In addition, she said, shaken: "she's a religious fanatic!" when in front of the others we were asked to remove us from the table in the cafeteria, at we had set ourselves, and Lone came and had placed her bag on a chair, which APPARENTLY meant that the whole table, and the other people there were on her PRIVATE TERRITORY! ‼
The last so-called worship we were at in Kolding Church Centre was Shrove Sunday with carnival. It was after that Sunday, where my mother and I were expelled by Lone Ambæk from a table in the cafeteria!
Lars Krøgholt and my son just so wanted to go there to celebrate Carnival with the other children.
Bread rolls were served and I sat at the same table, as Susanne Larsen and others. In the room where we had morning prayer on Sundays and Sunday school for kids was in there during church services (during the meetings), the tables were set for the serving.
Then I instantly got the hard message from Susanne Larsen, that I had not allowed to sit there. Not because there were still not vacant chairs. But she kept a seat for Lone Ambæk, who would come in a taxi and Lone Ambæk would not sit in the same room as me. Then I had to listen to it in front of people who were guests in the Church on that Sunday and raise me up and go. I was completely crushed and at my wits end and went out and told the Senior pastors’s daughter-in-law, Birgitte and their son, Leif Petterson, who was pastor of the Church.
The answer I got was that Leif Petterson could not do anything about it. He did not want to; after all, that was what he practiced. ‼ ‼‼
I cannot imagine how it is allowed that the two women who were close girlfriends, were allowed to take ownership of the Church and DETERMINE that I, or OTHERS WERE NOT WELCOME to stay in the same room as THEM.
To think that a woman in the Congregation, Lone Ingrid Ambæk (now Skjoldholm) might be the week before up front in the Church and were to pray out loud in front of everybody together with others, and she shouted her prayers and right after that down on her chair BEHIND MY MOTHER and I SAID SOMETHING HURTFUL to ME, THAT GOT MY MOTHER to EXPERIENCE THERE was SOMETHING ENTIRELY WRONG.
And two Sundays she got away with bullying me. LEIF PETTERSON RESPONDED when LARS and I WENT to HIM with the PROBLEM, and also that even my mother who was a guest experienced Lone Ambæks harassment that "Lone should be allowed to respond for a time that she had been deprived of her Prophetic PRAYER SCHOOL SERVICE!" He would not intervene, but he was sorry it came to happen we could see, but he said as an explanation that he would not talk with the Lone Ambæk about it: "THERE are MORE THINGS in IT!"
We were so crushed. And shaken.
Instead, Lars and I received a mail that we did not belong to that church, and that we instead should find another congregation. They did not think they could offer that kind of a church, we seemingly wanted. That way the problem of creating order was solved to them.
Lone Ambæk had taught for 2-3 years in what Senior pastors Grete and Flemming themselves called Prophetic PRAYER SCHOOL. Taught people FROM four CHURCHES (Pentecostal and Apostolic Church, Kolding Valgmenighed and the state Church in Hjarup, as well as some from congregations in Odense and Horsens) in prophetic prayer, it was called.
She had even collected GIFT CONTRIBUTIONS and for a PERIOD ALLOWED RECEIVED MONEY to GO into HER PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNT in “DEN DANSKE BANK” and USED THEM for HER PRIVATE CONSUMPTION without the LEADER FAMILY PETTERSON TOOK CARE of IT and WENT to the POLICE and ALSO INFORMED ALL that got OUR GIFT CONTRIBUTIONS WERE STOLEN. The money should have been put into KOLDING CHURCH CENTER’S ACCOUNT.
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Dear Kristine Garde.
Thank you for our conversation this evening. Thank you that we could contact you again.
Will it be possible for us to hearing from you after you have read this?
I never got to introduce the case thoroughly on the telephone.
First of all here is a transcript from the Court in Holstebro, where the fines, we were sentenced to pay to the police where confirmed.
Quote from "Transcript from Book Of Verdict. Sentence pronounced : June 13-2013."
Declarations. . Prosecution has laid claims about Fine. The Defendants has pleaded guilty.
The details of the Case.
Daniela Skov has explained that it is true, she has sent text messages and emailing Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen as well as she has left several messages on Serner-Pedersen's answering machine.
Thus she recognizes to have violated the Police Restraint Order of November 12- 2012. But she does not understand the background of this restraint order.
She suffered a kind of a shock when the restraint order was serviced to her. In the time following she was in a severe state of crisis.
Jonas Jacob Serner- Pedersen had been deputy chairman in an Organization called the Oase. (”Dansk Oase" our footnote)
which is a eclesiastic (church) organization in liaised with Kolding Valgmenighed.
Serious problems occurred in Oase, where the defendant had a son who had his membership too.
At a time, Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen was expelled from Kolding Valgmenighed.
Jonas Jacob Serner- Pedersen meant that Church must be protected.
He did not wish to contribute to expose the unlawful acts that had taken place in Oase.
Defendant and Lars Krøgholt approached Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen in order for him to send them some formulas (papers), but nothing happened.
Thus, they needed some formulas to resign their Church membership and a receipt to document the resigning had been taken care of.
Jonas Jacob Serner- Pedersen stood by totally without doing anything at all, and this is the background for the repeated approaches to him from the defendants.
Lars Krøgholt has explained he too can admit to having send text messages, emailing and made telephone calls to Jonas Jacob Serner- Pedersen as stated in count five and six.
He can in every thing refer in agreement with the statement made by Daniela Skov.
Defendant also needed some formulas, here by a receipt and a written Reference from Jonas Jacob Serner-Pedersen.
‼
Lars Krøgholt:
It all began with Jonas was sacked and my ex-wife, Daniela and I resigned from Kolding VALGMENIGHED. Daniela asked Jonas for a receipt verifying he had done his job as resigning her and her eldest son.
WE HAD FULL FAITH IN AS A FACT Jonas delayed
with an answer concerning those papers as he deliberately had been delaying for some weeks ending the formulas to us in the first place. At the end then Jonas had texted Lars:" Now I better pull myself together and get the (resigning) formulas in the mail to you. "
We TRUSTED the reason for his procrastination was as Jonas had confided in Daniela Skov, he was not good at getting administrative duties done, and likewise his weakness was keeping deadlines.
He told Daniela S that his five colleges, who were in charge in Leadership had been so angry with him on that subject.
Daniela Skov wanted to resign herself IMIDIATELY when she was told by Jonas that the 5 in the Leadership group had been harassing (verbally ABUSING) him for 18 MONTHS hidden and in SECRET from the entire Church!
And they had held covert planning meetings excluding Pastor Jonas Serner-Pedersen from those meetings.
Daniela Skov refused strongly from a matter of conscience so strongly and serious to her to have her name (give personal consent) to be involved in anything called Church where her pastor had been harassed and verbally abused covertly.
Likewise, she had invited many into The ALPHA Course
And she felt sick and sad the Leader of the ALPHA Course in FACT turned out to be the prime Verbally abuser of Jonas. On top of this, she felt awful she had invited several into this Alpha Course and then they join into an environment of VERBAL ABUSE AND HARRASSMENT IN SECRECY.
Jonas had cried in front of her when he told her about this in his office after he was sacked. He said:" now you see me cry!"
Later in summer of 2012, we asked him if he would write a reference for Daniela Skov to send to Leadership Academy at Abundant Life Church (now Life Church) in Bradford, England. It was IMPORTANT to have such reference from her pastor. He had written one a year ago to her daughter. We also asked for a reference to Lars to a Church in London.
Jonas S-P did not respond to us about any of that. He did not answer yes or a no to us even though we kept asking him through text messages or emails or on his answering machine.
After 2 years, in the spring of 2014, we found out that Jonas Serner-Pedersen based on our papers had signed us in to two State Churches in Kolding in the spring of 2012 without our knowledge and consent.
We were shocked and bewildered and Lars felt as if he had suffered a burglary in his home, because Jonas had papers with our personal security numbers on and had used that. We realized we had been signed in and thereby also paid CHURCH TAX for 2 years.
We had been through a personal process in both our lives and chosen to be baptized with Faith BAPTISM. We did not by any means share the religion, the State Church represents, on the contrary we had fully chosen otherwise. We had signed ourselves out Daniela Skov in 1997 and Lars Krøgholt in 2007. It was incredibly offensive and ABUSIVE to be forced members of the STATE of Denmark's chosen version of the world religion Christianity. We have the FREEDOM according to The Constitution in Denmark to choose our personal religion.
We did not even have a legitimate membership of the STATE Churches during the 2 years period, DESPITE the FACT that we had been paying CHURCH TAX without our knowing and consent. Membership in the STATE Church is based on the child BAPTISM theology and sprinkling of water on the head as far as we understand.
Jonas S-P chose to give us the silence treatment and a ignoring our approaches to him project about paperwork since he got sacked from his job as pastor in Kolding. He was in a crisis and very unhappy and we believed then, that might also be one of the reasons he never responded to us about finishing what was under his office as a pastor to us of administrative duty.
He chose to show no interest in responding with a YES OR A NO nor showing any kind of empathy to us in the situation, we were in need of papers so very important to us. That was why we repeatedly continued approaching him for an answer.
In August 2012 Jonas Serner-Pedersen in his office of a pastor wearing his official black cassock, he conducted the funeral service of Daniela Skov's close friend Mary Frank. Their friendship dating back to their childhood. Pastor Jonas Serner-Pedersen was walking behind the coffin when they carried it out of the church and he chooses to stop at the isle and give a long embrace to Daniela Skov. That is most unusual to her from any pastor on duty. Lars Krøgholt and all in the church witness this so Jonas S-P cannot deny he did this. He embraced her more than one time during this day of funeral.
She becomes extremely frightened and traumatized when a month later, September 19 -2012,
he has her exposed to the Police in HOLSTEBRO as a Stalker who according to him a police officer states " did not belong to his congregation!!!!" The brutality and mocking from the Police Officer calling UNEXPECTEDLY and he claimed she was charged and she got traumatized and had no idea there of what that meant. She started suffering from PTSD from that entire trauma
He EMBRACED her more than once at the funeral, and earlier in the time as her pastor, and we have in writing that he in spring of 2012 writes: “Unfortunately it cannot be anything with you and I!” Thus Daniela cannot be exposed as a stalker 19-09-2012 at the police, for he has also in writing told in May 2012: “You are so good towards me.” And he wanted specifically in April 2012 that DANIELA CAME to PRAY FOR HIM – that was two days after he was sacked.
He told Daniela directly on the way out of the door, they went together after she was down in his office to pray, listen, and talk with him: “I love talking with you, Daniela! And you are the one who has helped me the very most!” And: “I love when you have had someone with you down here at the office, whom we have prayed for”. We are in 100 pct. good faith that Jonas just dawdles with papers. He really could answer on e-mail that he did not want to do the papers, even though they were a part of his administrative duties. They were forms from the church on which it was printed that the pastor should receive them. We had just patiently calculated that he was dawdling, because he had spoken with Daniela about this. Her female doctor also said that what Jonas did against her by exposing us to sudden silence “had nothing to do with you Daniela! It is Jonas’ unconstructive way of solving his own problems!” Jonas was in a crisis from April, Daniela really supported him, and we supported him so that he wrote: “You are much too good towards me!” Because of this it is shocking that he tell the police – we did not learn that until the summer of 2013, where we at last are allowed access: Daniela clinged to me!”: “I (Jonas) actually felt sorry for them!”
When we got the police restraint order, Daniela was asked if she would come to the police for questioning. She said yes, she would like to, but she had to have a doctor with her, because she had gotten PTSD and anxiety because of the treatment she had been exposed to. But the conclusion was that she has not wanted it. I was not even asked if I would come for questioning. So we have not had the possibility of being heard and we have been assigned police estrangement measures and fines WITHOUT QUESTIONING AND CONSULTATION PROCEDURE EVER.
Kind regards Daniela Skov and Lars Skov Krøgholt.
Just one more thing: We have sent out e-mails to a larger group, including government offices, pastors, bishops and the mass media. Nothing is kept secret. We have collected it all on the web site http://sites/google.com/site/ytrings
Dear Kristine Garde
I am sorry that I happened to write something wrong: Lawyer Claus Juul from Amnesty International wrote: "it is true that you have lost your legal certainty in Denmark". It was in connection with the police constable, who rang up Daniela about the estrangement measures, would not identify himself. In Amnesty International's magazine there was right then an article on that it is a big problem with the police constables, who are not identifiable. Lawyer Claus Juul did not use the word principle of legality. Sorry I came to write that the principle of legality was violated.
Before we were in court in Holstebro had we been advised of legal aid in Kolding: 1. We should refuse to pay the fine, when it came from the police. 2. She said that the vicar Jonas Serner-Pedersen would be present at the hearing; then we would be able to be heard. He had to give his testimony. He would be in the same room as we, although he had the restraining order, "for ye are not dangerous!" But we were told in Holstebro, that Vicar Jonas Serner-Pedersen should not be there. We do not understand why everything has become so messy, and all the time to the vicar Jonas Serner-Pedersen's immediate advantage.
With kind regards Daniela Skov and Lars Skov Krøgholt.
-------------------------------------
Vi fik senere denne mail fra Kristine Garde:
---------- Videresendte meddelelser ----------
Fra: Kristine Garde <kk.Garde@mail.tele.dk>
Dato: 13. december 2015 kl. 12.35
Emne: SV: Rettelse til netop tilsendt mail
Til: Lars Skov Krøgholt <lkrogholt@gmail.com>
Da jeg ikke kan hjælpe dig /jer i sagen om polititilholdet, som normalt varer 5 år, vil jeg venligst bede om, at du/I ikke sender flere mails til mig.
Med venlig hilsen
Kristine Garde
Hertil svarede Daniela
Tak for mail. Det forholder sig sådan, at vi har fået at vide af politiet, at tilholdet mod os er på livstid. Vi spurgte dem jo om detaljer, hvordan det bliver fjernet, da der stod i Tilholdet 5 år. De fortalte os at vi skal regne med , det ikke forsvinder. For ellers ville vi jo kunne henvende os til Sognepræst Jonas Serner-Pedersen til den tid. Det skulle han ikke være udsat for. Politibetjenten brugte ordet " princip". Vi har konsekvent INGEN HJÆLP i denne sag , da vi har mistet vores retssikkerhed, som Jurist Claus Juhl fra Amnesty International også har bekræftet er tilfældet for os. MVH Daniela Skov.
--------------------------------
Og endelig sendte vi denne mail til hende, og afsluttede dermed forsøget på at få hjælp fra Kristine Garde:
Kære Kristine Garde.
Som vi har skrevet, er vi i fuld offentlighed om det, vi skriver og sender, og vil ikke stikke noget under stolen. Derfor skal du vide, at vi har sendt mail den 10. december om, at vi kontakter retsteolog Kristine Garde. Vi var ved at sende det til dig, men så kom din mail. Det findes også på hjemmesiden https://sites.google.com/site/ytrings/2015/december/10-12-2015
Vi lover, at vi også sender dit svar til os ud, så ingen skal tro, at nu er du involveret.
Mvh. Daniela Skov og Lars Skov Krøgholt.
Det drejer sig om følgende:
Vi har gennem lange tider orienteret om den uret, vi er blevet udsat for af sognepræst Jonas Serner-Pedersen i Hjerm.
Det er gået op for os, at vi har brug for at kontakte retsteolog Kristine Garde. Hun har Ph.d. i præsteløftet, og vi vil gerne høre hendes opfattelse af, om præsteløftet kan bruges som løftestang til at få Jonas Serner-Pedersen til at gå i dialog med os, fjerne tilholdet mod os, og få orden i sit hus.
..... og resten af denne mail, som allerede er sendt ud.
--------------------------------------------------------
We got this email from Kristine Garde later:
----------Forwarded messages----------
From: Kristine Garde < kk. Garde@mail.tele.dk >
Date: 13. December 2015 at. 12.35
Subject: SV: fix for just sent mail
To: Lars Skov Krøgholt <lkrogholt@gmail.com>
Since I cannot help you in the case of the police the estrangement measures, which usually lasts five years, I would please ask that you not send any more emails to me.
With best regards
Kristine Garde
To this Daniela replied
Thanks for the mail. The fact is that we have been told by police that the estrangement measures against us is life long. We asked them about the details, how it will be removed, as it was said in the estrangement measures 5 years. They told us that we must reckon with the fact it does not disappear. Because otherwise we can contact Vicar Jonas Serner-Pedersen when that time comes. That he should not be exposed to. The police officer used the word "principle". We have consistently NO HELP in this case, since we have lost our legal certainty, as a lawyer Claus Juul from Amnesty International also has confirmed is the case for us. With Kind regards Daniela Skov.
--------------------------------
And finally, we sent this email to her, and thus ended the attempt to get help from Kristine Garde:
Dear Kristine Garde.
As we have written, we are in the public about what we write and send, and will not put something under a cover. Therefore, you must know that we have sent mail on 10. December that we were to contact retsteolog Kristine Garde. We were about to send it to you, but then came your mail. It is also available on the website https://sites.google.com/site/ytrings/2015/december/10-12-2015
We promise that we will also send your response to us out, so no one should think that you are now involved.
MVH. Daniela
Skov and Lars Skov Krøgholt.
It concerns the following:
We have through long times informed about the unjust, we have been exposed to by vicar Jonas Serner-Pedersen in Hjerm.
It's dawned on us that we need to contact justice theologist Kristine Garde. She has PhD in priest's promise, and we would like to hear her opinion on the priest's promise can be used as a lever to get Jonas Serner-Pedersen to enter into dialogue with us, remove the estrangement measures against us, and put order in his house.
..... and the rest of this email, which has already been sent out.