20140721_R4
Source: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
URL: N/A
Date: 21/07/2014
Event: Craig Bennett about Owen Paterson: "it's a pretty big Green Blob that he's being rude about"
Credit: BBC Radio 4
People:
- Craig Bennett: Director of Policy and Campaigns Director, Friends of the Earth
- Minette Batters: Deputy President, National Farmers Union
- Justin Webb: Presenter, BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
Justin Webb: The man who was sacked as Environment Secretary in the reshuffle has been hitting out - not, though, at David Cameron, but at the green lobby, the "Green Blob" he calls them, in an article in the Telegraph at the weekend. Owen Paterson said he received more death threats in a few months at Defra than he ever did as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Craig Bennett is Campaigns Director of Friends of the Earth, and is here, and Minette Batters is Deputy President of the NFU and is on the line from Salisbury. Morning to you both.
Craig Bennett: Good morning.
Minette Batters: Good morning.
Justin Webb: Minette Batters, he's got a point?... Hello?
Minette Batters: Sorry, Justin, hello?
Justin Webb: Has he got a point?
Minette Batters: Um, he's highlighted a massive challenge for government, certainly.
Justin Webb: Because what he says is that not just that he was personally abused by people, but also that the "Green Blob", as he puts it, is very well-funded and well-organised and - kind of, fundamentally, not very democratic, because nobody's voted them into the positions of power that he claims they have.
Minette Batters: Yes, I mean, I - it is a big challenge for government that he's highlighted. Our own lobbying is from our own funds and is totally funded by the industry.
Justin Webb: Craig Bennett.
Craig Bennett: Well, I mean it's a really bizarre thing for him to talk about the "Green Blob", and in so doing, he's alienating a very large part of the electorate. I mean, who is the "Green Blob" that he likes to describe? I would say it's millions of people in this country that are members of environmental organisations, far, far more than members of political parties, everyone ranging from some of the top businessmen in this country and other business leaders that are saying they want to see more action on climate change and protecting nature, through to some of the country's leading scientists. So it's a pretty big Green Blob that he's being rude about.
Justin Webb: Do you accept that he shouldn't have been burnt in effigy by Greenpeace, as he says he was, when he was recovering from an operation to save his eyesight?
Craig Bennett: Well, absolutely, we would condemn any behaviour like that. But let's be clear, he's got his facts absolutely wrong, there - when I read that, yesterday, immediately I thought "I'm sure Greenpeace wouldn't do that", and last night I phoned up my counterpart at Greenpeace and she confirmed, of course they didn't - they would never do anything like burn an effigy, and so we condemn that, absolutely, and condemn death threats. The Environmental Movement in this country has long been all about peaceful protest, and that's why we have gained so many millions of supporters. And it is our millions of supporters across the Environmental Movement in this country that fund well over 95% of our work, so it's a bit rich -
Justin Webb: That's a good point, isn't it, Minette Batters - this movement that he felt made him so uncomfortable would not be there if it didn't have really widespread support.
Minette Batters: You could say it's got widespread support, but I think actually the production of food - I mean, we've argued for many years that a productive and competitive agriculture is compatible with improving environmental conditions. And, you know, our watchword has always been, you know, that we will have to produce more and impact less.
Justin Webb: Do you think, Craig Bennett, that there is a case, I mean, when it comes to - and I understand your point about your funding and the point about the majority of funding for organisations - but it does seem odd to people that there is funding from government, and specifically from the European Union, for green bodies, which then go on to lecture us about changes that we should make. I mean, surely if it is a widely popular, democratic movement, it should fund itself.
Craig Bennett: Well, where does that funding - what does it help us fund? The funding we've received from government, at Friends of the Earth, here in the UK, over the last few years, has been for development work we've been doing with part [?] organisations in Paraguay, so it hasn't funded any of our, kind of, lobbying work in the UK.
Justin Webb: Well, it enables you to spend your money on other things, doesn't it.
Craig Bennett: Well, I -
Justin Webb: Wouldn't it just be simpler - I mean, the European Commission, according to their website, spends 150 million euros on the top green NGOs, or has done, recently, this is the claim that Mr. Paterson makes. I think there is a sort of sense that actually you could do and fund this yourself and there would be a cleaner break, then, and a more democratic break between those who were putting pressure on government and those who were in government.
Craig Bennett: So let's be clear, it's less than 1% of Friends of the Earth's funding in the UK comes from any government source. And the funding going into European organisations is, as I understand it, predominantly to fund the building-up of work in Eastern Europe, where of course there's been many years of - Civil Society has found it hard to represent themselves and to build up Civil Society to be stronger there and to undertake important environmental work on the ground. I do think it's a bit rich, this claim coming from Owen Paterson, however. You know, he - to talk about a Green Blob - he's in cahoots with the likes of Nigel Lawson. If anything, he's part of, if you like, a "Grey Blob" that is trying to lock us into a grey future where actually we put a price on everything but value nothing, where ideology comes before facts and science, where actually we're just regurgitating the same ideology - you've got to bear in mind that when Owen Paterson -
Justin Webb: Well, hang on - there's ideology on both sides, isn't there? I mean there's just as much ideology on the green side, if not more - it's a religion.
Craig Bennett: Well, at Friends of the Earth, we always make sure that our work is evidence-based, and we always look at the science first. Owen Paterson, when he was Secretary of State, turned down offers from the chief scientists to brief him on climate change, because he made up his mind in advance of hearing from the scientists and then didn't want to know. We always look at the science, at Friends of the Earth and many other organisations [inaudible] do that.
Justin Webb: I think what he would say is that actually, there is just as much ideology on the other side, and it's this ideology: it's an anti-commercial ideology, it's an anti-profit ideology, it's an anti-modernity ideology, and it infects the Green Movement, and that is what he's up against - he was up against, and we're all up against.
Craig Bennett: It just doesn't add up. In his article yesterday, in the first half of the article he accused us of being anti-capitalist, in the second half of the article, he had a go at us for working with companies - how can those two issues stand side by side? The point is: at Friends of the Earth, we're happy to work with a very wide range of organisations - we worked with the NFU recently on issues to do with bees, we've worked with all sorts of business on issues to do with clean energy, we're happy to work with a very wide range of organisations, where we can find common ground - doesn't mean we have to agree on anything. What you hear from Owen Paterson here, is a very divisive, very ideological approach, which is basically saying: if you don't agree with him, you're part of some kind of constituency that needs to be written off. It's very divisive politics.
Justin Webb: Okay. Craig Bennett, Minette Batters as well, thanks.