20170810_R4
Source: BBC Radio 4: Today
URL: N/A
Date: 10/08/2017
Event: Lord Lawson on Al Gore's new movie: "it's the same old claptrap"
Credit: BBC Radio 4
People:
- Al Gore: 45th Vice President of the United States, author of An Inconvenient Truth
- Roger Harrabin: BBC's Environment Analyst
- Nigel Lawson: Baron Lawson of Blaby, Chairman of the Board, GWPF
- Susan Rae: BBC newsreader
- Fisher Stevens: Director and producer of Before the Flood
- Justin Webb: Presenter, BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
Susan Rae: The former US Vice President Al Gore is visiting London to urge people and governments to take more action to tackle climate change. Mr. Gore, whose 2006 film on the issue, An Inconvenient Truth, won an Oscar for best documentary. He'll appear at the première of its follow-up An Inconvenient Sequel at Somerset House. Here's our Environment Analyst, Roger Harrabin.
Roger Harrabin: As Vice President, Al Gore agreed the Kyoto Climate Protocol, back in 1997. But when he couldn't get it past Congress, he turned outside politics, with a film called Inconvenient Truth. It's been globally influential. He's used the film to train thousands of volunteers to be climate change ambassadors, many of them from the world of business. He's also harnessed his Vice President's title to gain unprecedented access to political leaders, world-wide. He played an important part in the surprise success of the Paris climate deal in 2015. To climate-concerned Democrats in the US, he's a hero. But his passionate, polemical language has allowed supporters of President Trump to dismiss climate change as a matter of politics, not science.
* * *
Justin Webb: As we were hearing in the news, Al Gore is back. He was Vice President for eight years, of course, under Bill Clinton. He was very nearly President himself, denied by the Supreme Court in 2000. And then he turned to his big cause, the fight against man-made climate change. His film An Inconvenient Truth came out in 2006 - it was a massive box-office hit - and now there is a sequel, An Inconvenient Sequel, as he has called it, and it hammers home really essentially the same message.
Donald Trump: It's time to put America first. That includes the promise to cancel billions in climate change spending. Our plan will end the EPA.
Al Gore: The next generation would be justified in looking back at us and asking "What were you thinking? Couldn't you hear what the scientists were saying? Couldn't you hear what Mother Nature was screaming at you?" It is right to save humanity! It is wrong to pollute this Earth! Is is right to give hope to the future generation!
Justin Webb: Hmm, the film was made as Donald Trump was campaigning to get into the White House - you heard a bit of that there, didn't you. It ends with scenes of great triumph, in a sense - the signing of the Paris Agreement that commits the world to a path of decarbonisation, but also from Al Gore's perspective tragedy as well, in the election of Donald Trump, in his announcement that the US was pulling out that agreement. And Al Gore is here - good morning to you.
Al Gore: Good morning.
Justin Webb: How big a problem is Donald Trump, for all you want?
Al Gore: Well, it turns out that he is probably less of a problem than I had feared, when he made his announcement that the US would pull out of the Paris Agreement, because, you know, I was concerned other countries might use that as an excuse to pull out themselves. The very next day the entire world - rest of the world - redoubled their commitments to the Paris Agreement, and our largest states and hundreds of cities and business leaders said we're still in the Paris Agreement and we're going to meet the commitments, regardless of Donald Trump. And it looks as though -
Justin Webb: You think America will meet its commitments -
Al Gore: I do. I do.
Justin Webb: - under the Paris Agreement, in spite of Donald Trump? In totality, which is what, 15-20% of the reductions planned come from America, don't they? You think they can still come?
Al Gore: I think they still will come, yes. The advance - the sharp drop in the cost of solar electricity, wind electricity, the introduction of electric cars now batteries are coming down in cost - lots of cities in the US have now committed to 100% renewable energy. The movie highlights one such, a very conservative Republican city in the heart of Low Country in Texas, and they found they could reduce their electricity bills by going 100% renewable. And it's a side benefit - they're helping to save the future of humanity.
Justin Webb: You met Trump, didn't you, and you met Ivanka Tump, his daughter, who we are told is a powerful figure in the White House. Have you talked to them since the election?
Al Gore: Yes, my conversations with Donald Trump continued after he went into the White House. And I had reason to believe he would stay in the Paris Agreement - I thought that he -
Justin Webb: Did he tell you he was thinking of staying?
Al Gore: Well, I've protected the privacy of the specific words used, but I thought he would come to his senses - but I was wrong. He has surrounded himself with a rogue's gallery of climate deniers -
Justin Webb: But what about Ivanka? Because you had contact with her too, didn't you, and she -
Al Gore: She was certainly in favour of staying in -
Justin Webb: Have you talked to her since the June 1st pullout of Paris?
Al Gore: I haven't talked to him or any of his advisors since the withdrawal from the Paris Agreement.
Justin Webb: Have you made an effort to do so?
Al Gore: No.
Justin Webb: Why not?
Al Gore: Well, I think that he made his intentions clear, and absence of some unforeseeable circumstances, I see no point in continuing a dialogue which -
Justin Webb: You don't think then that Ivanka has the power within the White House, if not to reverse that decision on Paris, but actually still to make the case that you want to have made?
Al Gore: Well, not only his daughter but several others close to him were in favour of staying in the Paris Agreement. But the climate deniers won the day. The truth about the climate crisis is still inconvenient for the large carbon polluters and the politicians they completely control, including President Trump.
Justin Webb: You make the case in the film - you mention it around the beginning there - about solar power and the difference, the economic difference, that has been made in recent years to the cost of providing various kinds of power. In a sense, is your case - and we're thinking about, at the moment in this country, our electricity bills are going up, people are worried about what we call "green taxes", the amount of money that we seem to be have to be paying in order to get these things off the ground - is your case, in the film, that actually those subsidies are going to end soon?
Al Gore: Well, actually the subsidies for fossil fuels are far larger than the meagre subsidies for renewable energy. The United Kingdom now gets more electricity from wind than from coal, went for one day, this year already, without burning any coal here. But the central point is that these technologies for renewables are coming down continually in cost, and the world gets more energy from the sun in one hour than the entire global economy uses for an entire year. And as this cost continues to come down, we're seeing a dramatic shift, most of all in the developing countries like India and China.
Justin Webb: Is there still, then, a need for films like yours - I was reading somewhere that 40% of all articles casting doubt on climate change mention you by name. I just wondered at the extent to which you think you might now become part of the problem, as it were, by being so passionate, so committed and with films like this, that actually there is an economics case that, as you were saying yourself, can be made to conservative Republicans in America and elsewhere to people who don't really think they know whether or not you're quite right about man-made climate change but still think there's an economic case for doing all of this stuff.
Al Gore: Well, the economic case is growing, for sure. And there are two big changes, since the first movie came out a decade ago. One is the solutions are here, now, but they need to be implemented more quickly. The second big change is that the climate-related extreme weather events have grown far more numerous and far more destructive, and Mother Nature is the chief advocate for fighting the climate crisis now.
Justin Webb: But that's another problem, isn't it - you make the case that they're climate-related. I mean, if I said to you "It's a cold day in London today, so there's no such thing as climate change", you'd say "You're a moron - it's an idiotic thing to say". And yet in your film you have repeated shots of storms, and you, as you put it, join the dots and suggest that they have to be because of man-made climate change. Are you going a little bit further than all the scientists would?
Al Gore: Oh no - of course, the Royal Academy of Science here in the United Kingdom and all of the academies of science throughout the world are virtually unanimous on this, and have been for decades. You've had clear evidence here in the UK - just in the last couple of years, the all-time record downpours and the high temperatures. And just this past week, in southern Europe the record high temperatures and fires - all of these things are consistent with what the scientific community has been saying for decades. But again, Mother Nature is a more persuasive advocate. Now, the large carbon polluters have been financing climate denial in lavish amounts, and it's the same thing that tobacco companies did, years ago, when the doctors connected the dots, as you put it, between smoking cigarettes and lung cancer. And they hired actors, dressed them up as doctors and put them on camera to falsely reassure people that there were no health problems with cigarettes. They've taken that playbook, hired the same PR agents and are doing the same thing.
Justin Webb: Let me turn back to Donald Trump - we started with Donald Trump, we should end with him as well, partly because of North Korea, but partly, also - you said the other day that the Trump presidency might end for ethical reasons before its full term. Are you expecting him to do his full four years?
Al Gore: I have no inside information. The old saying "Where there's smoke, there's fire" may or may not apply here, but the fortunate news is that this independent counsel Robert Mueller is universally respected and whatever he finds -
Justin Webb: But do you think it is a possibility that it brings to an early end the Trump presidency - possibly?
Al Gore: Well again, I have no inside information but, as you reported on the newscast, the FBI conducted a pre-dawn raid with no-knock at the home of his campaign manager, and you've seen the reports -
Justin Webb: What does that mean to you? Does that suggest to you that this presidency is in real ethical trouble?
Al Gore: It suggests that the investigator - the independent counsel and the FBI assisting him - have reason to believe that they need to step up the gathering of evidence. And we should wait and see.
Justin Webb: North Korea - how worried are you about real conflict breaking out?
Al Gore: Well, on that one, I think that Donald Trump inherited a very dangerous situation that's been building for some time. I think his intemperate comments the other day did not help the situation, but it's a very difficult challenge. I'm glad the United Nations Security Council was unanimous, earlier this week - that's a positive step forward.
Justin Webb: And an achievement, actually, for his diplomacy.
Al Gore: Yes, it was. Yes, and he should be given credit for it. The - again, the intemperate comments. I think, ratcheted the tensions up perhaps in an unwise way, but it's a difficult challenge.
Justin Webb: And yet, possibly - could you make the case, if you were a Trump supporter, of actually Obama and previous presidents have been, in a sense, too predictable, and actually having someone who seems a bit unpredictable, in the White House, might make America's enemies - and North Korea - think again?
Al Gore: When you're dealing with nuclear weapons, then intemperate comments have their own problems carried with them. But you're quite right that this, as I said earlier, this crisis has been building since long before Donald Trump entered the White House, and that should be remembered. He and his advisors are facing a very, very difficult challenge. I hope that China will follow up on its support for the Security Council resolution by actually enforcing these sanctions, and shift the posture of this impasse so that we can move toward a diplomatic resolution. The problem with the military resolution, of course, is that the capital of South Korea is so close to the border that the risk is, of course, of millions of casualties because they have these bespoke artillery batteries that are aimed at Seoul from North Korea.
Justin Webb: And the President's advisors know that very well.
Al Gore: Oh yes, Jim Mattis, his Secretary of Defense and H.R. McMaster, his National Security Advisor, are both highly respected - these are thoughtful men, experienced, and that should be a source of some comfort, as we look at how the American administration is managing this crisis.
Justin Webb: Al Gore, thank you very much for talking to us, this morning.
Al Gore: Thank you.
* * *
Justin Webb: We heard earlier in the programme from Al Gore, who's in Britain plugging his latest climate change film and one of the points he makes in that film - and made to us - is that the economics of climate change are changing. Never mind how convinced you are about the need for altered behaviour and reductions in emissions of greenhouse gases, actually just makes sense to be on the front edge of solar power, he was claiming in particular. Lord Lawson is on the line - Conservative former Chancellor, of course, and Chair of the Global Warming Policy Foundation. Lord Lawson, good morning.
Nigel Lawson: Good morning.
Justin Webb: What do you make of that point, that people like you, who have been saying the costs are too great, are now on the back foot, because the costs of doing what Al Gore wants us to do are fast reducing?
Nigel Lawson: Well, look, the point is not just the costs, although we do have, in this country, in England, one of the highest energy costs in the world. Which is very hard on the poor and hard on business and industry, which is because of our absurd climate-driven energy policy. There is the energy - the renewable energy, so called, is heavily subsidised. And if they say it's economic, well then, let's get rid of the subsidy -
Justin Webb: But the point Al Gore makes is that we subsidise all energy, including fossil fuel energy.
Nigel Lawson: No, we don't. That's not true - we tax fossil energy. Anyway, we subsidise renewable energy. But the main point is that the conventional energy is reliable and cheaper. And that is important. And what is the reason for - Al Gore, I listened to the interview you had with him, and he was talking complete nonsense - I'm not surprised that his new film has bombed completely, a complete fiasco -
Justin Webb: Which bit of it was nonsense?
Nigel Lawson: What?
Justin Webb: Which bit of it was nonsense?
Nigel Lawson: For example, he said that there's been a growing - increase which is continuing in extreme weather events. There hasn't been. All the experts say there hasn't been. The IPCC - the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which is the sort of voice of the consensus - concedes that there has been no increase in extreme weather events. Extreme weather events have always happened, they come and go, and some kinds of extreme weather events, at a particular time, increase, whereas others - like tropical storms - diminish.
Justin Webb: Yeah, he was interesting on that, because I challenged him on that, and he said: no, actually the thinking now, amongst scientists who look at this - and he uses the phrase, in the film, "join the dots", that actually when we look at, I don't know, Hurricane Sandy, when we look at the terrible hurricane that there was in the Philippines, when we look at other individual world events, we are simply kidding ourselves if we don't join them together and say what is causing it.
Nigel Lawson: No, it's not happening. The reputable scientists, reputable experts like Professor Pielke, and as I've said the IPCC, have confirmed that there has been no increase in extreme weather events. And as for the temperature itself, it is striking that he made his previous film ten years ago - and according again to the actual figures, during this past ten years, if anything, mean global temperature, average world temperature, has slightly declined.
Justin Webb: Well, which is an argument on both - so I just want to stick on his general advice, and in a sense, get back to this point about the economics of it. He makes a particular point about solar power, and he talks in the film about battery technology - the ability, our ability, really and he goes to a conservative Republican, in a place in Georgia, I think it is, in the United States, and the conservative Republican says: well, why wouldn't we do this? It's becoming cheaper - if we're not putting stuff into the atmosphere that probably isn't good for it, why not do it?
Nigel Lawson: Look, two things. First of all, of course, Al Gore has a substantial commercial interest in renewable energy. But secondly, if it is fully economic, why on earth do we subsidise it and support it, by all sorts of government policies? Which are driving up the cost of energy, particularly in the United Kingdom.
Justin Webb: Are you going to go and see the film?
Nigel Lawson: I don't think so - I've heard what Al Gore has to say and it's the same old claptrap. People often fail to change, and he certainly hasn't changed - he's like the man who goes around saying "The end of the world is nigh" with a placard. To begin with, you might be scared, but after ten years of him doing that, and the end of the world isn't nigh, then you think: no, maybe we should forget that and concentrate on real problems, like North Korea, which you've been talking about, like world poverty, like disease and all these other issues that we should be devoting our attention to. And international terrorism, Islamic fundamentalism - these are real problems. The world is not short of problems, and to devote resources and energy to non-problems is really ridiculous.
Justin Webb: Lord Lawson, thank you. Fisher Stevens is on the line, who's director and producer of actually another film - it's called Before the Flood. It's nothing to do with Al Gore but it's been - it has had the involvement of Leo DiCaprio, so is in a similar vein, I suppose. Mr. Stevens, good morning.
Fisher Stevens: Good morning, how are you?
Justin Webb: I don't know if you heard what Lord Lawson was saying at the end there, but he makes this case that he's made before, that actually there are plenty of things we should be spending our energy and our money on, and climate change - man-made climate change - is not anywhere near top of the list.
Fisher Stevens: Yeah, it's a bit of an OTS [?], it's a bit of a sad thing that people don't seem to want to take climate change as seriously as it is. Um, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio and I set out to kind of raise the profile of climate change, something that Al Gore did with The Inconvenient Truth [sic] ten years ago, and try to make people understand its importance, and we tried to get it out before the American election - the American election. We weren't [inaudible] if one candidate was elected, climate change would be even denied further, and obviously you see what's going on in America, we've pulled out of the Paris climate pact, Donald Trump doesn't seem to take climate change seriously and has put people into place that are the same, very similar people that were fighting the tobacco -
Justin Webb: Well, this is the point that Al Gore made, isn't it, but I suppose the other point is that people like Leonardo DiCaprio and Al Gore, these wealthy, well-connected individuals who themselves lead lives of considerable carbon use, that actually they are the wrong people, they are the wrong people to be lecturing us - and actually we've possibly reached a stage now where these films don't do the good that the authors of them want.
Fisher Stevens: Hmm. Well, I disagree, because if there's no film, then there's - then what do you have? You have nothing. So, I mean Al Gore definitely brought it into the forefront and yes, Leonardo has been definitely slammed for his use of carbon, and even [inaudible] woman from India, Sunita Narain, who slams Leo - that's Leo, but she slams America for its consumption, which, yes we all do have to change our lifestyles, I think so, but the point is that we do need people to talk about this, and the people who can get an audience are the Al Gores and the Leonardo DiCaprios of the world. And they don't have to - you know, they can go and just live off the fat of the land if they want, so I'm hoping - well, what we wanted to do was to inspire young people to understand that this is a huge problem and to get people actually galvanised, start really caring about this issue, because it's very tough to get people to care about it.
Justin Webb: Fisher Stevens, thank you.