Source: BBC Radio 4: Today
URL: N/A
Date: 08/12/2016
Event: Justin Webb: "97% of the world's climate scientists..."
Credit: BBC Radio 4
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Justin Webb: What does Donald Trump think about climate change? Some greens had hoped that he might, via his daughter, be convinced that man-made global warming is real, but it seems that hasn't necessarily happened. Laura Bicker has been telling me about Scott Pruitt, the man Mr Trump seems to have chosen to be the new head of America's Environmental Protection Agency.
Laura Bicker: So far, we haven't had it confirmed, although Kellyanne Conway has appeared to kind of give it the nod - that's Trump's campaign manager - she left Trump Tower on Wednesday. She said "We're very accustomed to naysayers and critics", because there have been some - a number of people - who say this is a terrible choice to lead the Environmental Protection Agency. Why? Well, he once tried to sue them, he is a climate change denier, he is a friend and ally of many fossil fuel industry [sic] and of course he has said that at one point he wanted to dismantle the Environmental Protection Agency, a vow that Donald Trump has campaigned on.
So perhaps this is seen as a sign that Donald Trump, who was once a climate change denier himelf, has not changed his spots, as many environmentalists had hoped when he met Al Gore earlier this week, and he came out and he said that he thinks there may be some connectivity between humans and the warming of the planet. Well, perhaps in appointing Mr Pruitt, that shows that those words were perhaps not exactly what he meant, and when it comes to the EPA itself, one Democratic senator has said that it could stand for - under Mr Pruitt - "Every Polluter's Ally".
Justin Webb: What do his backers say?
Laura Bicker: His backers say - well, this is a real joy for right-wing conservatives, who believe that it is time that the EPA was dismantled or even diminished, because they believe that it's overstepped its mark, when it comes to climate change targets. Now remember, President Obama has been a big and vocal opponent of polluting industries and fossil fuels - he has tried to get through various measures and has been successful in getting through various measures to try to limit the amount of fossil fuel emissions. And when it comes to what he has managed to achieve, perhaps Donald Trump will not be able to unilaterally cancel all of that. However, he could substantially weaken, delay or solely take it apart with the help of Mr Pruitt, and certainly right-wing activists, conservatives believe that that's what needs to be done.
Justin Webb: Laura Bicker, in Washington, thanks.
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Justin Webb: What does Donald Trump actually think about climate change? It's difficult to work out what the new US administration's approach to global warming is going to be. On the one hand, he meets Al Gore. On the other, he is reported to have chosen just yesterday a man called Scott Pruitt to lead America's Environmental Protection Agency. Scott Pruitt is a lawyer who has in the past sued the EPA and tried to stop it from reducing the emissions from coal-burning power stations. He's also on record as saying that the science on climate is unclear. Professor Henry Jacoby from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology describes Scott Pruitt as a climate change denier.
Henry Jacoby: He's been a very active attorney general in the state of Oklahoma, and a leader among attorney generals in the other states, in attacking the administration's policies on a number of environmental issues. And of course a lot of those cut against the oil and gas industry, which is part of his constituency in Oklahoma. So he has been against a lot of regulations on methane and carbon dioxide and the like, and is among the group that you would call deniers, about the climate issue.
Justin Webb: David Rivkin is a friend and admirer of Mr Pruitt.
David Rivkin: I know him well- I've represented him in several important cases. He is a person who cares deeply about the Constitution.
Justin Webb: Does he care equally passionately about the environment?
David Rivkin: Absolutely, sure, he cares about the environment, but environmental protection is a policy goal that has to be advanced in a constitutional democracy like ours in accordance with the law. The most important thing in a democracy is the process, it's not the outcome.
Justin Webb: I suppose what a lot of people would say about that, though, it is precisely the opposite is the case, that the really important thing on greenhouse gases is the outcome. And that's why Obama acted as he did, and that's what would be so dangerous.
David Rivkin: But it can't be - if I may - no matter how much you believe in the climate change imperatives, it cannot be pursued in a way that violates the rule of law.
Justin Webb: Whatever you think of the law, though, do you believe that Mr Pruitt himself is committed - well, for instance, on that subject, to reducing greenhouse gases?
David Rivkin: Look, I have no idea - I think there are a lot of scientific questions about that need to be resolved, but I don't think that it's a matter even of what one thinks about reducing greenhouse gases - it's how. Administrator of EPA is a job in the executive branch - you implement the law. If Congress passes a law which says do A, B and C, do A B and C - don't do D, J and F - it's not the job of the executor to make laws.
Justin Webb: But it's still the job of an executor, isn't it, to have a view of what is the right thing to do, and what people suggest about Mr Pruitt is that his view is that greenhouse gases, frankly, don't matter, that he doesn't believe that this is an important subject -
David Rivkin: Well look, again I don't think that's true, I don't think it's true. But again, there are plenty of examples in history about members of the executive branch carrying out policies with which they disagreed, because that was the policy agreed to by the legislature.
Justin Webb: You know him, and you know his feelings about the wider world, presumably, and some of these policy issues - he has suggested in an article that the debate about global warming is, as he put it, far from settled, he said scientists continue to disagree about the degree and extent of -
David Rivkin: Of course it's not settled - of course it's true -
Justin Webb: No, but hold on, it -
David Rivkin: - all scientific debates are always viable, and -
Justin Webb: Exactly -
David Rivkin: - to call it fully settled is just utterly unscientific.
Justin Webb: Exactly, except that 97% of the world's climate scientists, according to NASA, agree that the planet's getting hotter and that the burning of fossil fuels is the primary cause of that. And I'd just be interested to know whether you think that he, maybe, disagrees with that.
David Rivkin: I think he has an open mind, and by the way, not to be snarky but in the time of Giordano Bruno 99% of scientists believed that Earth was the centre of the universe - does not happen to be true. So you do not arrive at scientific truths by taking an opinion poll.
Justin Webb: Very interesting, though, because we do accept the balance of scientific opinion on a whole range of matters, and you're saying on this one that Mr Pruitt perhaps just doesn't.
David Rivkin: All I'm saying is he has an open mind and really, I mean, again, personal views of somebody on a policy issue, in an environment where he's supposed to carry out the law, are not particularly important.
Justin Webb: That was David Rivkin. What is, then, the bigger picture? What does Donald Trump think about climate change? In the past he's called global warming a hoax - what does he think now? Daniel Lippman is a reporter for the Washington-based news website Politico.
Daniel Lippman: I think Trump views climate change as another political battle, where he can't totally ignore it and that's why he's listening to his daughter, who has made it a big issue of her own. But in the end, he is picking people who, in all of their political history, have not addressed the issue as a serious scientific threat and more as a cost concern for companies and energy firms. And so we'll just have to see how he actually addresses climate change and whether he switches some of his campaign rhetoric, given that now he's telling the New York Times "well, there are human connections to the earth warming". And so maybe he's going to recognise reality, in that case, once he's in the Oval Office.
Justin Webb: Does he have the power, as President, significantly to alter America's greenhouse gas emissions?
Daniel Lippman: What's interesting is my colleague Michael Grunwald wrote a story about how, even if the US was to do nothing more than just, you know, keep on our current trajectory, we've actually cut the emissions that we are due to reduce by 2024, under the Paris Agreement. We have cut back a lot, and so Trump has already been given a gift by President Obama of, you know, significant reductions in greenhouse gases. But, as President, obviously he can either extend that or he can backslide and make it easier for airlines and for manufacturing facilities to pump lots of CO2 emissions.
Justin Webb: Do we know yet whether he's intending or not to pull out of the Paris Agreement?
Daniel Lippman: You know, he can't just totally abrogate the US role in the Paris Agreement, but he could tell the US to basically ignore it and not live up to it. But he's going to face a significant battle in the courts, because environmental groups are going to make the case that the US can't just totally ignore its treaty obligations.
Justin Webb: Daniel Lippman of Politico, thank you very much for talking to us.