20131107_R4

Source: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme

URL: N/A

Date: 07/11/2013

Event: Lord Deben on carbon cuts: "China is actually moving at a much faster rate than we are, now"

Credit: BBC Radio 4

People:

Evan Davis: Presenter, BBC Radio 4 Today programme
Lord Deben: John Gummer, Chairman of the Committee on Climate Change (UK)
George Osborne: Chancellor of the Exchequer, UK Government

Evan Davis: There is something of an argument, which has erupted in recent months, as to whether Britain is doing more than its share of carbon reduction, burdening ourselves with the cost, while others are making less of an effort. Here's the Chancellor, speaking back in September.

George Osborne: My argument has always been: saving the planet shouldn't cost the Earth. What good does it do Britain to have a set of policies that closes, let's say, an aluminium smelter in the north of England, and then that same company opens an aluminium smelter in China? We haven't done anything for climate change or carbon emissions, but we certainly have cost jobs and hurt people's lives in this country. So I would just say: Britain - yes, wants to be part of an international effort to tackle climate change but it can't be out there all by itself at the front of the pack.

Evan Davis: "All by itself at the front of the pack". Well, how much weight should we put on that argument? There is an official body whose job is to advise governments on these matters. It's called the Committee on Climate Change, the CCC, and it's weighed into the debate. It says Britain is not so far ahead of its counterparts, that it can afford to lay off its decarbonisation efforts. And the chairman of the committee is Lord Deben, better known as John Gummer, who is with us. Good morning to you.

Lord Deben: Good morning.

Evan Davis: Um... Just take us through the target - where we are, where our counterparts are, and, sort of, how we're doing in the rank, if you like, in the rankings.

Lord Deben: Well, if you let me - we haven't "weighed in", this is our official duty because this is a review of the Fourth Carbon Budget, which runs from 2023 to 2027. And we have to look to see whether the circumstances have changed, so that we should recommend either a tightening or a loosening of the budget - that's what we have to do, under the Act. And what we've done here is to ask these very questions, because that's what we -

Evan Davis: That's your job.

Lord Deben: That's our job. And the fact of the matter is that if you look at what China's doing - because you have the example of the aluminium smelter - China is actually moving at a much faster rate than we are, now. And it's actually moving towards a peak in its emissions in the mid - maybe even the early - 2020s. So when you look at the international comparison, what we're hoping to do is at the low end of what is being discussed at the European Union, this moment. It's a - there are all sorts of countries like, for example, Korea, which - whose president is here at the moment. They are going carbon-neutral by 20 - by 2050.

Evan Davis: You can always trust the Koreans to do - to be ambitious.

Lord Deben: Well, they really are doing remarkable things.

Evan Davis: How about the Americans, though? Because they're obviously huge - huge -

Lord Deben: They're now in line, because of a mixture of the West Coast, um, action, and the shale gas. They're now in line for exactly the reduction which they promised, and nobody thought they'd do. So Britain is in the pack. We have some things which we do better, but we're certainly not in the lead.

Evan Davis: But one of the things here is that countries talk quite a lot and then they do things. And there can be - you can either measure on what they say they're going to do, or measure on what they've actually done. [Laughs.]

Lord Deben: Well, I don't - never measure on what people say. [Laughs.]

Evan Davis: We're good at say - because we've got all these laws saying, you know, it's 80% reduction by 2050 by law, isn't it -

Lord Deben: Yes, it is.

Evan Davis: Um, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be achieved -

Lord Deben: Well, it -

Evan Davis: - or we'll see whether we can bear the pain.

Lord Deben: I'm - I'm a great believer in the British system, because our system makes it very difficult not to go down that track, once you've done it, because, as you know, we set the targets and the targets are passed by Parliament and they can't be changed unless the Climate Change Committee recommends that there is a change in circumstances.

Evan Davis: Yeah, but Parliament can pass a bill, after a finance act is - changing if it wants to -

Lord Deben: Not unless they repeal the Climate Change Act. And if you think there is a majority to repeal the Climate Change Act, then [laughing] I think you haven't handled the arithmetic.

Evan Davis: The conclusion is, though, that we've nothing to be arrogant about, in our, kind of, carbon reductions.

Lord Deben: No, but I do want us to keep on with it, because if we don't give a proper lead, other people who aren't following at the moment won't follow.

Evan Davis: Lord Deben, thank you very much.

Lord Deben: Thank you.