20120519_TF
Source: BBC World Service
URL: N/A
Date: 19/05/2012
Event: "I would insist on every individual having a unique ID"
Attribution: BBC World Service
People:
- Bridget Kendall: Radio and television correspondent
- Elizabeth Moon: Science fiction and fantasy author
- Elizabeth Quintana: Director of Military Sciences Department, RUSI
- Dr. David Rodin: Senior Research Fellow, ELAC
Bridget Kendall: This is The Forum, from the BBC. Today - future wars. Will they get more or less messy? And will there be more or fewer victims? But now - time for our 60-second Idea to Change the World. And this week it's from American science fiction writer Elizabeth Moon. Elizabeth, the deal is: you have one minute, and one minute only, to make your pitch to me, Bridget Kendall, and my other two guests, aerial warfare expert Elizabeth Quintana and war ethics authority David Rodin - and, of course, you, the BBC World Service audience. So, if you're ready... Off you go.
Elizabeth Moon: Thank you. If I were Empress of the Universe, I would insist on every individual having a unique ID permanently attached - a barcode, if you will, an implanted chip to provide an easy, fast, inexpensive way to identify individuals. It would be imprinted on everyone at birth. Point the scanner at someone - there it is. Having such a unique barcode would have many advantages. In war, soldiers could easily differentiate legitimate targets, in a population, from non-combatants. This could prevent mistakes in identity, mistakes that result in deaths of innocent bystanders. Weapons systems could record the code of the user, identifying who fired which shot and leading to more accountability in the field. Anonymity would be impossible, as would mistaken identity, making it easier to place responsibility accurately, not only in war but in non-combat situations far from war. And that's my bright idea for saving the world. Thank you.
[Alarm clock rings.]
Bridget Kendall: Perfect. Thank you, Elizabeth Moon. We've already touched on this idea of the need for greater transparency and accountability on the battlefield, so I guess, you know, as you're saying, this will do something to help it. Actually, this is something which is already happening, isn't it, in America - I think a US company's already been given the green light to implant microchips in humans. I think the idea was to provide medical information, in the first place, but I suppose what many people would say is if anonymity is impossible, couldn't this turn into some kind of surveillance system, and actually be pretty creepy?
Elizabeth Moon: It could - we already have surveillance systems, though, we have the video cameras, we have facial recognition programs, we have RFID chips all in the new passports. So, the problem is: most of these are expensive, it takes a long time to determine someone's actual identity - DNA tests, for instance, work but they take weeks to come back.
Bridget Kendall: I suppose the point is: is there a kind of barrier when it comes to the human skin. I mean, we do chip our cats and dogs, as pets. But what do you think, Elizabeth Quintana, is this the future? Chips under the skin, barcodes for all of us, like something off a supermarket shelf?
Elizabeth Quintana: It's very Minority Report, isn't it. It's - I guess the parallel you do have is in the aerospace world. You have identification, friend or foe, and this is on, kind of, an RFID signal, and you - this is -
Bridget Kendall: So how does that work?
Elizabeth Quintana: So it's on all aircraft, commercial or military, and it's to avoid commercial aircraft being accidentally shot down. But the problem comes when it doesn't work and you don't know who it is - a bit like Minority Report. What happens to those who don't have chips? Do they suddenly become second-class citizens? Is there an underworld? Can you reprogram a chip to make it look like you're somebody else? Who decides if you're bad or if you're good? If you're a valid target or not? There's lots of questions I'd have.
Bridget Kendall: The big question for me, David, is when it comes to people, you know, and the human skin, and your sense of your person. And your right to some privacy. Because don't we all, even the soldiers, sometimes want to be anonymous for one reason or another, maybe a romantic reason? Do you think we should give that up?
David Rodin: I have to say this idea absolutely terrifies me, entirely because I think, you know, governments have proven, time and time again, through history, that they will do absolutely awful things with powers that they're given. And I think that it's really important that we maintain the ability to retain our anonymity, if we choose so. So I would hate the idea of the government being able to infallibly identify me. And I'm not sure if it would do what Elizabeth would like it to do, either. So if you think about the, you know, the problem that she's, you know, rightly very concerned with, how you discriminate between combatants and non-combatants on the battlefield. And the issue here is not - it's not that we can't identify them as the person they are - we know the person they are. The question is what they've been doing, right, and the, you know, the ambiguity comes about in the kinds of conflicts we have now, because we have people who, you know, in the morning are working in a bakery or a shop, in the afternoon they're picking up an AK47 or planting an IED.
Bridget Kendall: Duel-use systems.
David Rodin: Well, that's right, and they're moving very ambiguously across this line, and a barcode is not going to help you making that decision.
Bridget Kendall: Fair point, Elizabeth in Texas?
Elizabeth Moon: That's a fair point, definitely. And I'm sure that spy agencies wouldn't like it either, since you could no longer infiltrate other people's organisations.
Bridget Kendall: Well that's right, the new facial recognition that's available at airports is causing a problem, as I understand, isn't it? Because spies can't have multiple identities to go through security, because you can tell, by the shape of their cheeks, who they are.
Elizabeth Quintana: Oh, very good.
Elizabeth Moon: And we have the problem of people who have a name similar to that of a terrorist, who have been put on a no-fly list.
Elizabeth Quintana: Sure.
Elizabeth Moon: They're perfectly innocent people. A unique identifier would help with that, but how do you keep it unique? How do you keep somebody from hacking that system?
Bridget Kendall: That's true. Okay. Well, good idea, but with flaws. [They laugh.]
Elizabeth Moon: It would be a bright idea for a story. In fiction it would work.
Bridget Kendall: In fiction it would work. Yes. I'll look out for it, in one of your next novels. Thank you, Elizabeth Moon.