20090414_R4
Source: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7997000/7997499.stm
Date: 14/04/2009
Event: Bob Andrews, of Eastside Climate Action, on closing down power stations
People:
- Bob Andrews: Spokesman for Eastside Climate Action (UK group)
- James Naughtie: Presenter, BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
- David Porter: Chief Executive of the Association of Electricity Producers (UK)
James Naughtie: Now, more than 200 police officers appear to have been involved in the operation to arrest 114 protestors in Nottingham - still beng held, suspected of a plan to try to shut down the Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station, just to the south of the city. It's thought to have been one of the biggest operations ever mounted against environmental campaigners, a pre-emptive move in the continuing battle between power companies and campaigners who complain that the industry is damaging lives by damaging the climate. Well, Bob Andrews is part of a group called Eastside Climate Action. It carried out a protest at Ratcliffe a couple of years ago. We're also joined by David Porter, Chief Executive of the Association of Electricity Producers. Bob Andrews, I imagine you're pleased that they were trying to protest, and upset at their arrest, are you?
Bob Andrews: Good morning, yeah I don't know anything about this particular incident, although I believe, actually, everyone has been released now, and released without charge. But, yeah, we went into Ratcliffe a couple of years ago because we wanted to stop carbon emissions, and I hope that's what these people were planning to do. Um, clearly the government and E.ON can't be trusted to deal with climate change, and so as usual, people have got to get on with it and do it themselves.
James Naughtie: When you say "do it themselves", you mean direct action to close down power stations.
Bob Andrews: Yeah, if that's what's needed. The science is very clear. There's 2,000 of the world's leading climate scientists all unanimous - stop burning fossil fuels. It's a really simple equation - burning coal is killing people.
James Naughtie: Yes, not all those scientists would say "shut down every coal-fired power station now", though. They would argue that there are ways of dealing with this over time, and that's the most sensible attitude. I mean, obviously, scientific opinion varies, but many of them would say that.
Bob Andrews: That's true, but they're unanimous that we need a massive change of energy policy, and what -
James Naughtie: That's a different point.
Bob Andrews: - well, what we've got at the moment, is the government and E.ON addicted to carrying on burning coal because they want to keep the status quo and keep the profits flowing, and we're saying we've got to change policy. And they're not doing it, they're not taking the science seriously. It's got to change. Stop burning fossil fuels.
James Naughtie: Well, let me bring David Porter in at this point, Chief Executive of the Association of Electricity Producers. Good morning to you.
David Porter: Good morning.
James Naughtie: What do you make of that argument?
David Porter: Well, first of all, the industry is always prepared to accept the right of peaceful protest. But my concern, although I can't comment on the particular aspects of this most recent case, is always about maintaining electricity supply for the people of the UK, and also about the safety of the staff at our power stations. It's not reasonable for them to have to face this kind of thing from time to time, and we seem to be having more of it in the UK.
James Naughtie: I'll come back to Mr Andrews, on specifically that point in a moment. What about the accusation, the familiar accusation that Mr Andrews has made, that really people like him, who believe that burning coal in power stations is irredeemably bad for the climate, see power companies and the government refusing to do anything about it?
David Porter: Well, the power companies are all involved in new technologies, in developing them, and the cleaner, greener electricity industry is on the way. But you simply cannot make that kind of change overnight. We're going to go on using coal in the UK for some time. There are technologies around the corner that could well make coal almost CO2-free, but you simply cannot make a sudden change. We have to go through a transition, and that is actually what the companies are involved in.
James Naughtie: Let me put that -
David Porter: It doesn't make a scrap of difference, of course, if you shut down a single coal-fired power station in the UK. Some other production will have to be brought in, in order to keep people's lights on. Indeed, these people seem to take very little account of the well-being of the majority of the people in this country.
James Naughtie: Two points there, Bob Andrews, for you, really. One - that last one, that people need power. Secondly, that on a practical level, shutting down one power station isn't going to make any difference. If you want to protest about the effect on climate, then you've every right to protest peacefully, and, you know, use the democratic process to try to change minds, get public support and all the rest of it, things that people are familiar with. But shutting down one power station by direct action doesn't do it. Now, those are the arguments - how do you respond?
Bob Andrews: Well, firstly, there are plenty of renewable technologies out there, we've just to have the political will to make them happen. E.ON and the government don't have the political will, and the reason that people are having to take action like this is to try and force them into it, because they won't do it themselves. Mr Porter's, unfortunately, an apologist for a suicidal policy, and he's paid to deceive people. It's not true that these companies are committed to change, they're committed to carrying on as normal, because that's what's easy for them. Well, they need to read the signs -
James Naughtie: You mean there's no research going on -
Bob Andrews: I know there some small - there is research going into clean coal technologies -
James Naughtie: So that isn't a lie.
Bob Andrews: But it doesn't exist yet. What needs to happen is these power stations need to stop until we've got, or unless we've got, a properly renewable system that doesn't produce carbon emissions. But that's not happening.
David Porter: But that would be a suicidal policy.
James Naughtie: Last word. David Porter - last word?
David Porter: I'm afraid that if you suddenly close down our power stations, that would be a suicidal policy. The economy of the UK would be seriously disrupted, and there would be social implications of that. It's a nonsensical approach to the problem.
James Naughtie: David Porter, Bob Andrews. Thank you, both.