20210922_GM
Source: ITV, Good Morning Britain
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zpTIrx6uAA
Date: 22/09/2021
Event: Liam Norton: "We're right! We're right!"
Credit: ITV, Good Morning Britain
People:
Richard Madeley: TV presenter
Dawn Neesom: Journalist
Liam Norton: Activist and Insulate Britain spokesperson
Susanna Reid: TV presenter
Susanna Reid: Almost 40 arrests have been made, after climate protesters blocked both carriageways of the M25 this week, during rush-hour traffic.
Richard Madeley: Surrey police have issued a statement: "Protesters have put their own lives at risk, as well as those of others". But plans to impose an injunction could also affect peaceful protesters.
Susanna Reid: Joining us now, Liam Norton from Insulate Britain - we met him last week - says there's just no other option than to take this sort of action. And journalist Dawn Neesom, who thinks risking the lives of other people is never acceptable, no matter what the cause. So, welcome back, Liam.
Liam Norton: Hi there. Thank you.
Susanna Reid: So let's just have a look at those pictures of what happened around this time yesterday, because I'm all in favour of peaceful protest but this is terrifying. You know, you're talking about the M25 and vulnerable human beings walking in front of cars, which could at any stage just knock you over. I don't understand how this helps your cause.
Liam Norton: And that's because, Susanna, and, you know, you're an intelligent journalist, right? And you haven't understood what I said last week about what we do in the next 3 to 4 years will determine the future of humanity.
Susanna Reid: No, I understand it -
Liam Norton: No, no you don't.
Susanna Reid: - I'm asking about those pictures - how is that helping your cause?
Liam Norton: If you understood it, you might start to understand that a little bit more. And in -
Susanna Reid: Liam, just try not to be so patronising when you're talking to me, okay? I understand.
Liam Norton: No, it's not about patronising - it's the truth.
Susanna Reid: No, it is. Sorry, your tone is patronising.
Liam Norton: It's the truth.
Susanna Reid: I'm asking specifically about how you're helping your cause, because I have to say - and you might not have heard the programme earlier - I'm extremely worried about what is now happening as a result of that protest, because I consider that there is potential overreach, when it comes to seeking an injunction in this case. But I wonder whether what's happened has slightly backfired on you, because now the Home Secretary is going to get an injunction. You could have raised attention of this issue without putting all of these lives at risk - I mean, look at the traffic there. Are you not scared that one of your group might be killed doing this?
Liam Norton: Yeah, absolutely.
Susanna Reid: And that's a price worth paying?
Liam Norton: Well, the thing is, Susanna, this is the other truth, okay? Is that your worry doesn't change climate ch- doesn't affect what we're doing, in terms of climate change. Worry doesn't do anything.
Susanna Reid: Hmm.
Liam Norton: People have been worried for 30 years. People have been writing letters for 30 years. People have been sending in petitions for 30 years. And now -
Susanna Reid: So it's worth risking the lives of your protesters - you would be prepared to lose your life over this? Is that what you're saying?
Liam Norton: Well, what we're saying is we're in this awful position, aren't we, where nobody is doing enough, in terms of trying to save the next generation from destruction. So that's what we're looking at. And we understand -
Susanna Reid: So you would be prepared to lose your life, in order to raise awareness of this issue?
Liam Norton: Well, people are going to lose their lives, Susuanna, so that's where we're at.
Susanna Reid: And let's just establish - okay, so the answer is yes.
Liam Norton: Well, people are going to lose their lives, if nothing's done.
Susanna Reid: And when we consider what that means, that is a motorist on the M25 hitting somebody.
Liam Norton: Yes. It's terrible, isn't it.
Susanna Reid: And that's a price that you think is worth paying. So not only for a life to be lost but for the impact that would have on a driver trying to go about their normal business. I mean, imagine the impact of that.
Liam Norton: Well, the Government have had weeks to give us a meaningful statement, that they're going to act, on terms of what it is that we're asking for. And insulating Britain will give the best value for money, in terms of reducing emissions, hundreds of thousands of jobs, and it's going to stop tens of thousands of our elderly from dying each winter. Susanna -
Susanna Reid: Well, actually what the Government's doing is, we know the Home Secretary is going to court to seek an injunction in order to put people who are prepared to die for this cause behind bars, to keep them off the motorways, so that that isn't on the conscience of any motorist who is involved. Dawn, as you listened to that, what do you think?
Dawn Neesom: To be honest, I'm absolutely appalled, and I thought you were very patronising there, Liam. Why haven't you insulated your own home, for a start? Because I think where you're coming from is pure hypocrisy, as well.
Susanna Reid: So, is that the case? Is your home not insulated, Liam?
Liam Norton: Susanna, whether my -
Dawn Neesom: Just answer the question, Liam - it's not, is it. We know it's not, and neither is Roger Hallam's, your leader.
Liam Norton: Whether my - whether my home is insulated or not doesn't change the fact that millions of people's homes aren't insulated -
Susanna Reid: Hang on a moment - sorry, is this the case? You're saying you would risk your life - risk your life - for Insulate Britain, but you're not going to insulate your own home?
Liam Norton: Susanna, the thing is -
Susanna Reid: Sorry if I sound patronising but that sounds like you're completely sabotaging your cause.
Dawn Neesom: No, no, no - that's not patronising, that's a simple, straightforward question.
Liam Norton: The thing is, this is like a shame that this discussion has been, like, debased in this way, because what we're talking about is the future of the - of our country. Our country's going to be destroyed if we don't -
Susanna Reid: And doesn't that start at home?
Liam Norton: - if we don't sort it out. Well, you know, insulation costs thousands , tens of thousands of pounds - you're aware of that?
Susanna Reid: Okay, so you're saying you can't afford to insulate your home?
Liam Norton: No, what I'm saying is millions of people over in the country -
Dawn Neesom: So you can, you're just not.
Liam Norton: - millions of people in the country cannot afford to do it, that's why millions of our people are in -
Susanna Reid: So you're not insulating your home, as a protest?
Liam Norton: Do you think it's acceptable for millions of people in our country to be living in fuel poverty? Tens of thousands of them to be dying in their homes, freezing to death - do you think that's acceptable?
Susanna Reid: I can't understand why you wouldn't start with insulating your own home.
Liam Norton: Whether that's true or not, do you think that's acceptable? Because that's what's going on.
Dawn Neesom: But it is true, Liam.
Richard Madeley: Liam, can I just come in, now. This time last week, when you came on, I put a couple of things to you. I read you the dictionary definition of fascism.
Liam Norton: Yeah.
Richard Madeley: And it absolutely describes what your supporters are doing, on the motorways - it is the act of a fascist regime, to impose the will and the determination to impose some kind of global solution on the individual, without consulting the individual, and to dictate that to them. So I would say to you again, that you are behaving like a fascist. I also predicted that we would be seeing serious consequences in the queues behind the blockages. And you told me that I was being hypothetical, and you didn't accept it. Well, a couple of days later, a woman suffered a stroke, sitting in a car in solid traffic, with her son at her side. He was driving her to hospital because the stroke had started at home. She couldn't get to the hospital. She was in the car for six hours - she's now paralysed. That is a - you cannot argue that this is not a direct result of your protests. How can you possibly justify putting a woman in hospital who can not speak and not move because she couldn't get to hospital in time, because of what you were doing. How - what would you say to the son, if he was standing in front of you right now?
Liam Norton: Well, we've tried to get in touch with LBC to speak to Chris, and they said they've not had any correspondence with him since.
Richard Madeley: I don't care. What would you say to the son?
Liam Norton: We obviously feel terrible and I would apologise and say how bad I felt, and he'd probably tell me to eff off. You know, and I accept that. So - but what we're - it doesn't change the position that we're in, in terms of the climate and the position of -
Richard Madeley: You don't lose any sleep about that? You don't lose any sleep about the fact that there is an elderly woman who is only in hospital - paralysed - because of what you've been doing? You don't - you don't lose any sleep about that?
Liam Norton: Yeah.
Richard Madeley: Why are you still doing it, then? Because it might happen, right now.
Liam Norton: Because you're not -
Richard Madeley: Your guys are on the M25 as we speak. There could be somebody else suffering a heart attack or a stroke, or some other fatal incident, which wouldn't be happening if you weren't blocking the roads.
Liam Norton: Richard -
Richard Madeley: It's going to happen again.
Liam Norton: Richard, it's like we're on repeat. Because you're not listening to what I'm saying about the future of this country -
Richard Madeley: And you're not accepting responsibility for your actions - this is a classic case of -
Liam Norton: Can I just finish? Can I just finish? Richard -
Richard Madeley: Well, if you say something stupid, I'll cut you off. Go on.
Liam Norton: Richard... I'm trying to - in terms of - you're not listening to what I'm saying, in terms of the future of this country's at stake, so I've said that, but then the first thing, the fascism -
Richard Madeley: I am listening - I agree with you. I actually agree with you -
Liam Norton: - but the fascism -
Richard Madeley: - that we should be insulating our homes, I think you're right. I think the Government should be helping to pay for insulation, but -
Liam Norton: - the fascism, the fascism - okay, so on the fascism -
Richard Madeley: - the way that you're pushing the argument has fatal consequences.
Liam Norton: Richard, okay, let me finish, let me answer that question. So, in 1937, do you know how many ministers - how many MPs - supported Churchill, when he was trying to fight er... er... Hitler?
Richard Madeley: You've just got your fingers in your ears, haven't you. You just cannot hear the reality of what you're doing -
Liam Norton: Do you know how many MPs supported Churchill -
Richard Madeley: I don't care. I'm not interested in Churchill.
Liam Norton: - in 1937? Six! Six MPs supported him.
Richard Madeley: I'm interested in people who can't get to hospital because of what you're doing.
Liam Norton: Six MPs. And Churchill was right, wasn't he. But he only had the support of six MPs.
Richard Madeley: You're comparing yourself to Winston Churchill?!
Liam Norton: No I'm putting hisself ["myself"?] into a historical situation, that always - not always the public who are always with you but you're still right. And we're right, now!
[Richard Madeley laughs.]
Liam Norton: This is about what is right and what is wrong!
Richard Madeley: This is about the most twisted parallel I've ever heard in a debate.
Liam Norton: And we're talking about the future of our country, we're talking about the destruction of our economy -
Richard Madeley: Okay...
Liam Norton: - and we're talking about the destruction of our health service! And you keep talking to me about hypothetical situations -
Richard Madeley: It's not hypothetical -
Liam Norton: - and you're refusing to listen to about what I have to say about the future of this country -
Richard Madeley: That was not a hypothetical stroke.
Liam Norton: We're right! We're right!
Richard Madeley: The accident, the pile-up that took place behind your demonstrators four days ago was not a hypothetical accident - it happened. These aren't hypothetical points - they're facts.
Liam Norton: Richard, we're right! We've been writing letters for 30 years, we've been writing petitions for 30 years, we've been pleading with our Government for 30 years -
Richard Madeley: And now you're risking people's lives.
Liam Norton: - and what we're saying to the Government is this. This is our line in the sand! We are demanding that the Government make a meaningful statement, to save the future of this country. And if they refuse to do it -
Richard Madeley: You'll kill people.
Liam Norton: - they can put us in prison, and that's the Home Secretary's decision -
Richard Madeley: No, if they refuse to do it, you'll kill people.
Liam Norton: - and I've had enough of talking to people in this country about what we're doing.
[Liam Norton gets up to leave the studio.]
Richard Madeley: You're doing a Piers Morgan. You're doing a Piers!
Liam Norton: This - is the state of things.
Richard Madeley: Bye!
Liam Norton: Yeah, bye. [He leaves the studio.]
Richard Madeley: So gentlemen - ladies and gentlemen watching this programme, we now know that these protesters are actually following in the footsteps of Winston Churchill. That is the level of intellectual debate that they're able to bring to the table. They actually compare themselves to the stand that Winston Churchill took against Hitler - that's their parallel. What do we make of that kind of intellectual vapidity?
Dawn Neesom: Well, I think that just demonstrates where this particular group of people are, and I - you know, I take what you say about fascism but I would also add that they're actually on a par with terrorism. And whenever I have this debate with anyone from that movement and they say "We are like the suffragettes!", well the suffragettes did admit back in the day that they were terrorists. So they are literally admitting they are terrorism. And you know, I've covered enough road traffic accidents and car crashes, and I've been to tell families that they've lost loved ones in car crashes. And you know what? Seeing them walk out on the M25 the other day brought back so many horrific memories. And if you were in a car with your family, and you had an accident and caused a pile-up and you lost your child, or you killed one of them - as you said, Susanna, you've got to live with that for the rest of your life. This is not helping the cause.
Susanna Reid: Yeah.
Dawn Neesom: We all agree we need to do something.
Richard Madeley: We might be getting this emergency injunction today, which means that if they go back, having been arrested and told that they can't go back, they break the injunction, they go to jail, they properly go to jail. Do you support that?
Dawn Neesom: Do you know, Richard, I would actually send them to China. Let them go and glue themselves to Tiananmen Square and see how far they get.
Richard Madeley: Okay.
Susanna Reid: Dawn, thanks very much indeed. Liam, many thanks indeed... He empty-chaired himself. And I don't know - I would have thought that you'd insulate your own home before you risked your life telling everybody else to insulate theirs.
Richard Madeley: Ah, that's a good point. But he doesn't take the point, does he. Or any of them.