20150612_R4
Source: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
URL: N/A
Date: 12/06/2015
Event: Roger Harrabin: "we’re trying to change the entire global economy..."
Credit: BBC Radio 4
People:
- Roger Harrabin: BBC's Environment Analyst
- Mishal Husain: Presenter, BBC Radio 4 Today programme
- Daniel Reifsnyder: US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Environment
Mishal Husain: The UN climate talks in Bonn, seen as laying the groundwork for the big global climate conference in Paris in December, have ended on a positive note, with a treaty to bind all nations to tackling climate change is said to be on track. That is at least the view of those leading the conference. Some parties, including the European Commission delegation, said that they would have liked to have seen more progress over the ten days of the talks in Germany. Roger Harrabin, our Environment Analyst, is here. What is your assessment, Roger, of how well they did, at these talks?
Roger Harrabin: Well the talks were, as they always are, absolutely excruciating, with arguments about the tiniest detail and trying to go line by line through a 90-page document, and with a room full of people. By the end, though, a note of realism had moved in - extra sessions have been put on, and the chief - the chairs have been asked to go away and sort out a text.
So, on the one hand, really dreadful - on the other hand, I think a remarkably different mood. And I've been to many of these and never before have I seen so many people laughing, smiling, and a real feeling of positivity, that actually, at last, they're moving in the right direction, and at last - I mean, a lot of people have said this - at last, it seems like everybody wants a deal. And in the past that hasn't been at all clear - lots of people have been trying to sabotage it, so - very good and very bad, at the same time.
Mishal Husain: A deal but enough of a deal or enough in the deal to make a difference, on the climate change front?
Roger Harrabin: No, I mean - and this is the really huge caveat, that the nations all agree that what they're offering to do, to protect the climate, will not protect the climate, by their own definition. And that's - that's the really massive downside. But you know, we're trying to change the entire global economy, or at least the UN's trying to change the entire global economy. And I think the delegates in the hall have taken inspiration from some of the extraordinary things that have been happening round the world, outside the hall. And they - I think they have more optimism now that they can actually do what they're hoping to do.
Mishal Husain: You mean extraordinary things from companies, for example, or I mean outside the nation-state framework?
Roger Harrabin: All sorts of extraordinary things, I mean, you take the G7 earlier this week, for instance - said we have to, as a world, decarbonise the electricity sector by 2050. Doesn't mean taking out all the coal and gas, but most of it. In other words, the end of the carbon era, which has fuelled all our economies - extraordinary. The Saudis say they expect solar to overtake oil. The Norwegians have pulled their £10 billion's worth of funding out of coal. Um, you know the Bank of England is warning of stranded assets. So, these are huge things, and still the question remains: how are we going to bring industrial-scale energy to the poor? And that's the really big challenge facing the negotiators and the technology and business people alike.
Mishal Husain: Roger, thank you. Well, let's talk now to someone who had a leading role in the negotiations in Bonn - Daniel Reifsnyder is the US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Environment, he was the co-chair of those talks in Bonn and he joins us now from Germany. Good morning.
Daniel Reifsnyder: Good morning.
Mishal Husain: What would you say to that charge that - what, however much you have achieved at the talks in Bonn, it is not fully addressing the scale of the global challenge presented by climate change?
Daniel Reifsnyder: Well, let me say, first of all, I think that Roger summed it up very accurately and very well. The mood here has changed dramatically, I think parties are really engaged in this effort now, everybody wants a deal in Paris in December, ah, I think we're really on the way.
Mishal Husain: Right, but "on the way" isn't really enough, and there is a gap, isn't there, between what - for example, what the G7 are doing, in talking about phasing out fossil fuels this century, and your ambition for the talks in Paris.
Daniel Reifsnyder: I think the ambition for Paris is really to launch a global effort. That effort is one that's going to take many years to unfold, but I think if we can get everyone moving in the same direction, everybody pulling an oar - some people will have a bigger oar, some people have a smaller oar but we're all rowing the boat - I think that's going to be a critical - that's going to be a critical win, in Paris.
Mishal Husain: Does that mean that it is more important that Paris is a success in getting all nations signed up, rather than what they are signed up to?
Daniel Reifsnyder: I believe, in - from my estimation, it is critically important that we get all nations signed up, because once that happens, once we all agree on the direction of travel, it's going to be much easier for us to all move forward.
Mishal Husain: Right - does that mean that at Paris, the agreement that we have in Paris, the treaty that you're aiming at, will that not meet the 2-degree warming level that is considered the level to contain climate change?
Daniel Reifsnyder: I think, as your - as Roger said, it's widely accepted that we will not achieve the 2-degree level in Paris, but the issue is: what kind of process can we set up for getting there? And getting there in time?
Mishal Husain: Mm. Are you talking now about being - about what happens beyond Paris -
Daniel Reifsnyder: Yes, absolutely -
Mishal Husain: - or in the run-up to?
Daniel Reifsnyder: - because at Paris, we will only agree - afterwards, we will need to implement. There's going to be a long period where many changes will have to occur, and there'll be - the commitments of parties to implement the commitments they make, and to take on further commitments in the future, will be quite critical.
Mishal Husain: And when you say a long period, how long? How long would it take, for example, to have a global treaty on the lines of what we've seen the G7 agree, in terms of phasing out greenhouse gases?
Daniel Reifsnyder: Well, I think keep on [?] the trajectories that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has been speaking about are 2050 and the end of the century, so this is a multi-decadal effort. Um, but it has to begin and it has to begin resolutely, with serious actions today, on the part of all of the countries involved.
Mishal Husain: Daniel Reifsnyder, thank you very much.