Source: BBC Radio 4: Any Questions
URL: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p011fdr0
Date: 16/11/2012
Event: "Is the enormous amount of money put into creating wind farms a cost-effective exercise?"
Attribution: BBC Radio 4
People:
Jonathan Dimbleby: Our next... Please.
Paddy Kingference [not sure if I've heard his name correctly, but that's what it sounds like]: Is the enormous amount of money put into creating wind farms a cost-effective exercise?
Jonathan Dimbleby: Minister.
David Willetts: I believe that wind farms are part of how we're going to ensure a mix of energy in our country. And over the years, various discussions on Any Questions - I've had people passionately worried about nuclear power, passionately worried about wind farms, passionately concerned about other energy sources, but the fact is, in the future we're going to need a wide range of energy sources, and that includes nuclear and it includes wind farms. But they will only be a part of the mix. And we have already got on track a programme of investment and, one hopes - it being realised as planning permission comes through - which will ensure that wind becomes a significant part of our energy mix, but it will never be the whole picture.
Jonathan Dimbleby: You've got, in the department in which you are - perhaps happily, in this context - not a member, you've got a Secretary of State, Ed Davey - very enthusiastic - you've got a Minister of State saying that enough was enough, he could cry halt, he could save this green and pleasant land... Um, as if he wasn't quite so enthusiastic about its contribution to renewable energy.
David Willetts: Well, it is - wind farm, wind farms are an important contribution to renewable energy. And the Coalition is committed to delivering on our targets for wind farms, as part of the energy mix. And it's very hard to see how we can deliver the investment in energy that we need. I mean, we have - I have to say - inherited such a lack of capital investment in energy provision that one of our highest priorities is to invest in new energy, and I believe that wind farms are part of that, and that is the Coalition's policy.
Jonathan Dimbleby: Shirley Williams.
Shirley Williams: I'll quickly address you, Jonathan. This bit of the Coalition has a minister who is passionately committed to a green government. He's called Ed Davey.
Jonathan Dimbleby: I mentioned him, I said the Secretary of State.
Shirley Williams: Oh, no, the Minister of State was the one who came out against it.
Jonathan Dimbleby: Yes, yes, I made that clear just now. I hope I made that clear. But I'm open to correction.
Shirley Williams: Okay. But very quick addition to what you're saying. I personally think that wind farms are rather handsome. I go and look at them on high heaths... [The audience suddenly becomes noisy, with some applause but also loud cries of protest.] No?
Jonathan Dimbleby: There's a sort of division in the audience - there's applause and disapproval.
Shirley Williams: Now, go on. How many of you have recently driven over Caithness and Sutherland, or, for that matter, Western Ross, or parts of this country which are virtually empty, except of sheep? And suddenly you see a wind farm, which can be a very attractive object, which actually [loud murmuring from the audience] - yes, it can be. Which actually delivers electricity to the public [man in the audience is shouting] - don't shout at me, I'm not shouting at you. And then let me also add to that, that in my view, one of the things we've neglected as a country, and have a huge, if you like god-given asset, is of course wave and river. So one of the things I hope we'll really scientifically develop, is the huge power that is inherent in places like the Outer Hebrides, dare I say even the Severn Bore. Where we need to think very carefully [some audience applause] about how we can use what we were given, which is a very large benison of water, which actually has the great attraction of being permanently "on", unlike wind, which comes and goes. So I hope that I agree with David. I think a variety of energy sources, but in my view the share that should go to renewables should be very much larger than it is today.
David Willetts: And can I just assure you, Shirley, wearing my hat as Science Minister, one of the things that we absolutely are determined to tackle is the better and more efficient storage of power, so that this big problem with wind power can be overcome. We ought to be able to store more than we do, and we will tackle that challenge.
Jonathan Dimbleby: Alex Deane.
Alex Deane: I think wind farms are ugly as all hell. [Loud audience applause and cheering.] Now, that's not -
Hilary Benn [?]: - like a Church of England statement!
Alex Deane: I'm not particularly enamoured of power stations either, but - in terms of their aesthetics. But, in answer to your question, wind farms may play a small part in our energy mix, in the future when they become more efficient - if they ever do. They've had an awful lot of money poured fruitlessly into them, so far, which has been frittered away and wasted on a dream. Someone should answer for it - we know they won't. It seems to me that if we're going to safeguard our energy future, we've got to go nuclear. [Some groaning from the audience.] And often it's the unpopular answer that we - at least, one thinks - might be right. And I also think we should have been building more conventional power stations. So we've produced the situation, because audiences react like this - where nobody likes wind farms, nobody likes power stations, nobody likes nuclear - where we don't have enough power. And that's the worst of all situations.
Jonathan Dimbleby: Okay... Hilary Benn.
Hilary Benn: Well I was just going to say, I think the audience reaction proves the point that, generally speaking, we're not that keen to have any form of power generation built near where we happen to live. [Audience laughter.] And yet we say to government "But - we don't fancy that, but you will keep the lights on, won't you? When I press the switch." And the truth is: our climate is changing. It is. We know that. And we're going to have to change the way in which we generate our energy. And I agree with David and Shirley, we're going to have to get all the means that we've got at our disposal. We do produce more electricity from offshore wind. And I agree with you, I mean, contemplating offshore wind turbines - they are really quite striking. You've got to put the onshore turbines in the right place. I checked the figures - it's about 50% of them get planning permission and 50% don't. And beautiful places like the Exmoor National Park - well, that is not an appropriate place. And people should have an opportunity to -
Jonathan Dimbleby: You were Environment -
Hilary Benn: Yes, I was indeed.
Jonathan Dimbleby: - Secretary. Is it right, as was claimed by the - by those who claim to be objective about it statistically - that actually, in terms of meeting the legal requirement to reach our European proportion of renewable energy, that onshore wind is cheaper than any other source of renewable energy, at the moment?
Hilary Benn: That is indeed the case, and therefore it's got to be part of it. I think the problem we have at the moment is - I mean, know all coalitions have their stresses and strains, but if you have an Energy Minister who's saying "no more", and an Energy Secretary of State who's saying "yes, we're going to have more", it would be good if the government could actually reach one view, so we know what's happening.
Jonathan Dimbleby: Thank you. We have to leave it there, although the Minister would love to come in. That's all we've got time for. Next week Caroline Flint, Mark Reckless, Steve Webb and Rose Hudson-Wilkin, who's the Speaker's Chaplain, in the House of Commons. But from here, in the lovely All Saints Church, in the wonderful Dulverton, in the remarkable Exmoor, goodbye.