20150618_R4

Source: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme

URL: N/A

Date: 18/06/2015

Event: Gordon MacDougall: onshore wind is "the best value for the consumer"

Credit: BBC Radio 4

People:

• John Humphrys: Presenter, BBC Radio 4 Today programme
• Gordon MacDougall: CEO of Renewable Energy Society, member of British Wind

John Humphrys: Are we seeing the beginning of the end of wind farms - or at least an end to the massive growth in the number of turbines, all over the country? That seems to be the effect of the confirmation by the government that subsidies for onshore wind farms is ending - or are ending - a year earlier than it had planned. Well, I'm joined by Gordon MacDougall, who is the Chief Executive of the Renewable Energy Society, a member of the British Wind organisation - that's one of the UK's biggest independent wind generators, it's the renewables arm of McAlpine. Good morning to you.

Gordon MacDougall: Good morning.

John Humphrys: The sort of subsidies that we have been seeing have been extremely generous, haven't they.

Gordon MacDougall: No, I think what we've seen, over the number of years of our Renewables Obligation, is a support mechanism which has encouraged an industry to mature, and as we're reaching the - sort of, the trajectory to get ourselves to grid parity, what we're seeing is a political intervention which is actually cutting that off, and actually stopping, potentially, the progress we've been able to make.

John Humphrys: Well, you say "progress" but people are concerned on two levels, aren't they. One is the subsidy that goes to wind turbines and the other is the unsightly effect they have - I mean, we're seeing lovely areas, often in areas of great natural beauty, destroyed by these - what many people think, anyway - to be hideous turbines.

Gordon MacDougall: Well, let me take that on two counts. The first count in terms of the subsidies - I guess every form of generation in the UK, by the nature of our market, requires some form of subsidy. And what we have, with onshore wind, is the technology that gets the lowest amount of subsidy. So from that perspective, it's the best value for the consumer, and it's also the best value for our environment.

John Humphrys: You say it gets the most subsidy?

Gordon MacDougall: No, it gets the least subsidy.

John Humphrys: Ah, right. A lot of people work it out rather differently from that, though, don't they.

Gordon MacDougall: Er, I would be surprised if they could work it out differently, it becomes the lowest cost of renewable energy and low-carbon energy in the UK, so -

John Humphrys: Ah, well that's a separate matter, low carbon, of course. Although a lot of carbon is used in the materials that go to make these things, isn't it. But none the less, low-carbon yeah, but the actual cost of the operation of these turbines is considerable.

Gordon MacDougall: Again, the cost is reflected in the amount of support and the value we can bring to the consumers, and again, being the lowest cost form of low-carbon energy, we are the cheapest way for the country to meet its obligations for climate change.

John Humphrys: But the problem with wind energy - and there's a clue in the name of this, isn't it - the wind, the wind doesn't blow all the time. And when it doesn't blow we don't get the energy. However, often if it blows too much, we still don't get the energy because the things have to be shut down, but the owners of them get money anyway.

Gordon MacDougall: Well, firstly we only actually get paid from the generating, and that's why we can still be low-cost, and the occasions where you do see and hear reports of people being paid when they're not working - that's actually just a - one of the actual advantages of wind farms, within the National Grid network. When the grid is struggling, flexible generation can be taken off, and it's only taking off wind because it's the lowest cost. So large plants like nuclear, which aren't flexible, can't actually support the grid, so it would be too expensive to bring these off. So wind farms can provide a service, and it's actually a value, so it's reported wrongly but it's actually something that's very valuable, to be able to operate a flexible grid.

John Humphrys: Hmm. But the clue's in the word "reliable", isn't it, and the wind doesn't blow all the time - that's it.

Gordon MacDougall: And that's what we expect - nobody invests and builds wind farms expecting that, so again we can plan, we can forecast and we've a lot of flexible generation to make sure we have a balanced portfolio, and that's what we would look to have.

John Humphrys: Yeah, but the thing is: if it's gas, we can rely on it entirely, because it's there full-stop, even if it's coal or if it's oil or whatever, it is there. If it's wind, we cannot - therefore, there has to be backup for wind, and you have to take that into account when you do the sums.

Gordon MacDougall: Yep, and there has to be backup for every form of generation - if a large-scale nuclear plant comes offline very quickly, there has to be backup and contingency plans for that. Every time we have large, industrial-scale, polluting power stations that come offline, there has to be backup for them or you'd have blackouts, so wind being distributed generally and having much more flexibility, again offers good balance to our National Grid.

John Humphrys: Gordon MacDougall, many thanks.