Source: Yaktivate.com
URL: http://unitednationsyak.com/?p=16
Date: 13/05/2008
Event: An interview with former UNEP Director Dr Noel Brown
Attribution: Yaktivate.com
People:
Male voice: Welcome to the Yakkers' Corner, with your host Muriel Glasgow. This show is dedicated to development and humanitarian issues. The Yakkers' Corner is being empowered by Yaktivate.com. Now please welcome your host, Muriel Glasgow.
Muriel Glasgow: Welcome back to the Yakkers' Corner. Today we have with us Dr Noel Brown, a former Director of the United Nations Environment Program. Dr Brown, welcome to the Yakkers' Corner.
Noel Brown: Thank you very much, Muriel, thank you very much.
Muriel Glasgow: Yeah. Today, we'd like to ask you a little bit, like, what brought you into UNEP and what years were you there?
Noel Brown: You know, I came to the UN by accident. I was finishing a degree at Yale University and was planning a teaching career. Then an opportunity came up to be interviewed by the United Nations, and I went and I got the position. I was first in the Political Affairs Department, working with Security Council, and then another opportunity came up to work with the Environment Program. As a matter of fact, I was at Stockholm in '72. So if you do the calculations, that's more than 30 years ago. And I was one of the founding for the United Nations Environment Program, which was established in 1973, and I stayed there until about 1995, so that's a pretty good piece. I like to tell my friends that this was - half my life and all my career was spent with - [Muriel laughs.]
Muriel Glasgow: Yeah, that's very interesting. So tell me, as Regional Director of UNEP, what was the state of the planet at that time that you were there?
Noel Brown: Well, I came out of Stockholm, Muriel, and the spirit of was one of immense buoyancy. We were very encouraged, if not enthusiastic. Remember that Earth Day came a couple of years before that, and suddenly the people began to take a look at the state of the planet. And we were very, very excited and enthusiastic about that. But we did not have a good reading of the Earth's vital signs, because at that time, we equated the environment with pollution and land loss, and those, sort of, limited number of issues. So those seemed to be quite manageable. And then we began to look at the chemical environment, the fact that we're synthesising many new chemical compounds, and we looked at the state of the oceans, this water quality, and suddenly it looked like - the environment became almost a total immersion [?] picture. Everything was related to the state of the planet.
Muriel Glasgow: A very holistic view of looking at the -
Noel Brown: It was going to get [?] synoptic, if not holistic. Suddenly we saw the whole. And, you know, Muriel, what, sort of, propelled that forward was the space explorations.
Muriel Glasgow: Mm-hmm.
Noel Brown: We became the first generation to see the Earth as a whole, to see the first Earthrise, and for the first time got a sense of what the planet really looked like in the third dimension. And that changed our relationship to the natural world completely.
Muriel Glasgow: That is so interesting. And then I see - on the website, I was doing some research on you. And you seem to have been prescient. You've mentioned something called an Environment Security - an Environmental Security Council of the UN could become a reality. Could you expound a bit on that, Dr Brown?
Noel Brown: Well, you know, we think of security in military terms. We think of security in war/peace issues. And those will continue, and we should not neglect them. But, in the end, those pale in the face of what is happening to our planet now. That there may be something that we can't fix with a gun. And there's something that needs to be enforced. So I feel that just as United Nations created a Security Council with enforcement action, under Chapter 7 of the Charter, we need to create an Earth Security Council. Because, unlike national security, and even international security, Earth security involves not us but future generations, and we have a responsibility for that. And we have very few enforcement measures now, to ensure compliance with what we know are detrimental actions to the future of the planet.
Muriel Glasgow: Because many kinds of actions have a reaction on people who live in the vulnerable areas, because I know that the fishermen nowadays, or even maybe since then - it's getting more and more interesting to see that fishermen have to be going further and further out to get fish, because of the, you know, all the driftnet works. People who [inaudible] the oceans were being, like, managed.
Noel Brown: Not only that, we're strip-mining the oceans.
Muriel Glasgow: Exactly.
Noel Brown: We have some incredible technology called trawlers -
Muriel Glasgow: Yes.
Noel Brown: - literally vacuum the oceans.
Muriel Glasgow: Wow.
Noel Brown: I think the world needs to listen more closely to the FAO. Because the FAO, within the UN family, have become the voice of the oceans.
Muriel Glasgow: The FAO's the Food and Agricultural Organisation, right?
Noel Brown: Yeah, the Food and - sorry, yeah. The Food and Agricultural - and they give us the data on the state of the ocean fisheries. And it's not very pretty. Most of the world's fishing grounds have been decimated, some to the point almost of collapse. And if you want to get a measure, a solid measure, my late colleague Ransom Myers, from Dalhousie University, did a study which lasted about ten years. And he said in the fifty years since the advances of industrial fishing, we have decimated approximately 90% of the ocean's fish stock - commercially [inaudible] -
Muriel Glasgow: And when was that study done?
Noel Brown: It was done about three years ago by Dr Ransom Myers from Dalhousie University.
Muriel Glasgow: Would you be able to give us that - would you put it on the website, if people would like to know more about it, okay? We'll ask you for that information. Yeah. That's very interesting. And then there's also this whole thing about people leaving their natural habitat and, you know, running to urban areas, because of the deforestation and the other issues that affect human lives and livelihoods. And it's said that in 2010, more than half the world's population will be in an urbanised setting. What's your opinion on that?
Noel Brown: We're becoming rapidly an urban species.
Muriel Glasgow: Yeah.
Noel Brown: As a matter of fact, we might simply become homo humanus [I'm wondering if he meant to say something like "homo urbanus" (?) but "homo humanus" is what it sounds like.] Urban people. And what's happening - you're quite right in your diagnosis. We thought we could run to the cities, but in the world we have now [?] there's no place to run to.
Muriel Glasgow: Not any more.
Noel Brown: Because the cities now are becoming overcrowded. The urban environments are becoming non-sustainable, and we're beginning to have some very real problems, which we may not be able to fix. 75% of the world's energy is used in cities, as is 75% of the world's waste generated in the cities.
Muriel Glasgow: Wow.
Noel Brown: In Naples, Italy, today, there are disturbances because the Mayor is not able to get the garbage out. People are demonstrating, because we simply can't get urban garb - where're we going to throw it? [?]
Muriel Glasgow: In Naples?
Noel Brown: Naples, Italy. Today.
Muriel Glasgow: Ah.
Noel Brown: There have been several disturbances, because the city, the Mayor, is not able to get the garbage - the landfills are saturated. We can't make the planet a landfill. We need to manage waste in a much different way. Waste is an unnatural act. In the other [?] nature, everything that is produced and generated by nature is consumed or managed somehow - except for what we do. And we've got to take waste much more seriously. It's almost a metaphor for disregard for the planet.
Muriel Glasgow: Wow. That's very interesting. The other issue that I would like to chat with you about is - Al Gore recently - a couple of years ago - came out with the video, the film called An Inconvenient Truth. Well, I think in your time it might have been an invisible truth. [Dr Brown laughs.]
Noel Brown: It most certainly was, and for that reason, I think Al Gore could be commended. And at the risk of being immodest, if he didn't get the Nobel Prize, I'd have given him the Noel Brown Prize [Muriel laughs.] Because what he did, he placed complex science within the popular culture. He gave a new meaning to complicated scientific vocabulary, and he was able to document that, he was able to animate it and he was able to visualise it. He did a great service to the world. Because, unlike the ozone issue, which as you know UNEP pioneered and championed for over ten years, when we entered [?] the Montreal Protocol. Ozone became at first [?] a health issue, because of skin cancer. Now the change is much more remote, it's future generations. And so we cannot get the policies right. Ban Ki-moon - you must give him credit. At the 62nd session of the General Assembly, you remember that he invited heads of state to speak with him on what must be done. He elevated the issue, and, in keeping with the - Gore's initiative, it has now become the defining issue for the 62nd session of the General Assembly. And I'd like to challenge [?] on that. I would say that climate change was the defining issue of the 62nd session of the General Assembly.
Muriel Glasgow: And what year was that?
Noel Brown: That was 207 [sic].
Muriel Glasgow: Ah, two-double-seven, yeah.
Noel Brown: The last year was what I can call the "climate change year".
Muriel Glasgow: Yeah, there was a big discussion on that, yeah.
Noel Brown: And fortunately they're staying with [?] and the President of the General Assembly is keeping the issue very sharply into focus. Because what we're now beginning to discover is that the science is now becoming - there is now more scientific consensus than ever. And what worries me is when scientists tell us, you know, "Our calculations, our previous calculations were off, and we under-estimated the danger to which humanity is going to be exposed" - that worries me greatly.
Muriel Glasgow: Mm-hmm. Wow. There's a lot of concepts being thrown around; we're hearing the concept of global warming, carbon footprints, and, you know, the climate change stuff. And many people don't really - they don't understand how to grasp that. Is there any way you could make it, like, you know, meaningful to listeners, so they could understand what it means and then maybe see what role they might have in that, in attenuating those [inaudible] circumstances, any behavioural issues that they may need to address, and so on?
Noel Brown: That's an excellent point. One of the things that I think as a framework for understanding what's happening - climate change is the first universal human predicament. Let me repeat that. Climate change and global warming is [sic] the first universal human predicament. None can escape. You can't be neutral or non-aligned. It's not a matter, simply, of the U.S. government, or the government of Burkina Faso, or the government of Kenya or the government of France. It also involves people - all of us have a stake in climate sustainability. The question, therefore, is how can each of us discharge our own responsibility in all spheres of activity? I am pleased to note that people are beginning to find ways of calculating their carbon footprint. What kind of mileage do I get from my car? Do I use plastic bags or paper, from the grocer's store, or do I return - perhaps re-usable bags? And the little things are beginning to add up. UNEP is now reporting on what is happening to the churches and religious communities. They are becoming green. Now, in saving souls they also want to save the Earth. And that is quite new. I think the vocabulary is seeping into the popular culture, and people are beginning to ask the question "What is my responsibility to the world's climate system?" And especially the Canadians, for example. They have something called the One Ton Club, in which each individual says "How can I reduce my carbon emissions load on the planet?" And they're taking personal responsibility for it. I think, however, that the UN should simplify the vocabulary and launch a global mobilisation. We have to mobilise for this world to be at war [?}, because we are at war against the Earth. And I [inaudible] challenge the United Nations to begin launching a major global mobilisation - nobody else can do it.
Muriel Glasgow: And maybe this might even bring us back to that Environment Security Council. Because change begins from below. This is very interesting. That's an interesting concept.
Noel Brown: Well, if there's a need for Earth security and climate stability is as urgent as they say it is, no government should get away with its intransigence. There should be a course of action against governments, especially when the science is now clear and manifest. We have the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Those are very, very cautious people - they seldom prescribe. But when they now tell you that time is running out and that we've got to take seriously the latest findings, and some governments are backtracking or double-talking, there should be some way to enforce those findings, for the UN to take an enforceable decision. And that has not been done. An Environment Security Council may be the place to do it.
Muriel Glasgow: That's very, very - I mean, this is such an interesting topic, you know, and I hope that you will come back to us and talk a little more on this, because, you know, it's so current, it's so biting, it's so real. And affects all of us, as you say, you know.
Noel Brown: None can escape. And I - you know, in the end, people are not really wicked. If you point them in the right direction and show them how they can make a difference, I think they'll go along with it. You saw what happened with the "no smoking" issues, when people are beginning to take seriously the Surgeon General's warning. And now we're beginning to - people are asking questions, young people are asking questions. I was in Japan, Muriel, a few months ago, addressing a High School group. And one young lady was literally shaking, because, she said, her greatest fear for her future is climate change.
Muriel Glasgow: Oh my goodness. How old is she?
Noel Brown: [Inaudible, but sounds something like "... being dragged up"] it was nuclear war.
Muriel Glasgow: Aha.
Noel Brown: But can you imagine a young kid is now beginning to fear for her future because of climate change?
Muriel Glasgow: What was the age group - are these -
Noel Brown: This was a High School group. [Inaudible] about nineteen. Yes.
Muriel Glasgow: And they're already aware and concerned.
Noel Brown: Definitely.
Muriel Glasgow: Very interesting.
Noel Brown: Very definitely.
Muriel Glasgow: Yeah, what a world are we leaving to them, and talking about young people, most of our listeners are young social entrepreneurs, and I'm sure that many of them are working in the field of environmental [inaudible] and climate change, et cetera. What words of encouragement would you have for them, Dr Brown?
Noel Brown: I would say to them, you know, the Charter of the United Nations committed itself to saving them from the scourge of war. The Charter needs to be expanded to save them from a degraded Earth. And for them to become partners in their own salvation. We cannot - we cannot wait for ten, fifteen years, until they grow up. We've got to invite them now, because their perspectives, their integrity, their honesty. One thing, Muriel, you must appreciate is that when you invite young people to anything, they tell the truth.
Muriel Glasgow: Yes.
Noel Brown: They don't have the diplomatic newspeak that you and I have mastered. [Muriel laughs.] And [inaudible], they tell the truth. And we need this kind of truth-telling. I would like, for example, to host, at the United Nations, an intergenerational session on climate change, some intergenerational dialogues. Because we created the problem, and they're going to inherit the hazard. Why not bring us together and talk about what each of our responsibilities are? And what they may not be able to enjoy. Because we messed it up.
Muriel Glasgow: So what would we need to do? That sounds very interesting, the internet generation in a dialogue on the Earth. Right?
Noel Brown: - United Nations.
Muriel Glasgow: Yeah, what would you need to do to make that happen?
Noel Brown: Pardon?
Muriel Glasgow: What would you need to do to make that happen?
Noel Brown: It's very simple to do, I think if we had Ban Ki-moon here and tell him that we welcome his initiatives and elevating this issue, but it's not an issue of the 62nd session or the 63rd session, it's a generational issue. And if he could launch an intergenerational dia- he doesn't need a mandate to do that. He doesn't need any mandate to do that. It's part of his responsibility to educate the world and [inaudible] the planet.
Muriel Glasgow: Well, this is so interesting. I know that this podcast - I'll send it to the United Nations group, you know, and I hope that he - that it goes on the website. And is there a website that you have and that you would like us to put this link to? Any website you would like us - you know?
Noel Brown: Yes, we have a Friends of the United Nations website, it's www.fotun.org.
Muriel Glasgow: F - Frank - Olive - Thomas - UN - dot - org?
Noel Brown: Right.
Muriel Glasgow: Aha. Okay. And you you have any further thoughts, Dr Brown?
Noel Brown: Yes, I think I'm very encouraged by the media, and especially the new media. Several times you mentioned the iPod and podcasting. That, perhaps, offers a ray of hope for the future. Because now anyone can have information on demand. Not simply to date myself, Muriel, but you know, I grew up with the big screen. We had to be someplace where the television was turned on. Now kids have their cellphones, their iPods, their internet, their web, their blogs, and what have you. They have information on demand. And they're using it.
Muriel Glasgow: And they're all linked.
Noel Brown: And they're all linked.
Muriel Glasgow: [Inaudible], yes. Mm-hmm. Okay, any further thoughts, or -
Noel Brown: No, I just wanted to commend the media, because they're picking up the story. I know many have other things to talk about, but increasingly we're getting now what we might call better environmental journalism. The real issues are being kept into focus. We're getting people now devoting their time to investigative reporting on what's happening to the planet. And they do so without apology. We need to encourage them, and I think our young people, the best advice I can offer them is to be well-informed. Don't go after the sentimental and the - people have a lot of loose talk and nonsense. The science is out there. They have the technology and the tools to tap into that science. They should be well-informed, and track and follow the latest data, and the UN is an incredibly good resource that the world should use more effectively.
Muriel Glasgow: Oh, this is so great, I really enjoyed this discussion, Dr Brown, and I will thank you as a founding member of - one of the founders of UNEP.
Noel Brown: Thank you very much.
Muriel Glasgow: Yeah. Thank you very much.
Noel Brown: [Inaudible] me back, Muriel?
Muriel Glasgow: Hmmh?
Noel Brown: I hope you'd invite me back.
Muriel Glasgow: Yeah I will, you know, I mean, we can set it up in, like, sequences, because, you know, you have so much to say and so much to offer, and this is such an ongoing discussion. So we could say, like, every three months you come in and you give us -
Noel Brown: We'll give you updates.
Muriel Glasgow: Yes, that'd be wonderful.
Noel Brown: [Inaudible.]
Muriel Glasgow: Thank you, thank you very much again, from the Yakkers' Corner. Goodbye.
Noel Brown: Good luck with your work.
Muriel Glasgow: Thank you.
Male voice: Thank you for listening to this edition of the Yakkers' Corner, and remember, this podcast has been empowered by Yaktivate.com.