20130306_R4
Source: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
URL: N/A
Date: 06/03/2013
Event: Sir David King: "...very few biofuels actually result in a reduction of CO2 emissions"
Attribution: BBC Radio 4
People:
- John Hayes: Energy Minister, H.M. Government, UK
- John Humphrys: Presenter, BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
- Sir David King: Former Chief Scientific Adviser to H.M. Government, UK
John Humphrys: Oil is expensive, coal is dirty, we don't have enough gas of our own, the few nuclear power stations we have left are on their way out, wind power is controversial and unreliable. So - what are we going to do to generate electricity? How about biofuels? Burning trees and other vegetation in our power stations. Well, MPs are deciding today whether there should be new subsidies for biofuels. But is it really the answer, or even part of the answer? I'm joined by the Energy Minister himself, John Hayes, and Professor Sir David King, who was the Chief Scientific Advisor to the government. And you have reservations about biofuels, Sir David?
Sir David King: Well, I think we have to be extremely careful with biofuels. Lifecycle analyses indicate that very few biofuels actually result in a reduction of CO2 emissions, and that, after all, is the overall intention. But a big problem arises from indirect land use implied by the use of biofuels, the alteration in food supply wherever we're converting potential land and water -
John Humphrys: Right. So, in other words, just putting it very simply, if you're using it to grow fuel, you can't be using it to grow food.
Sir David King: Yes, exactly. And you will even end up taking forests out, which is what we are doing, particularly with palm oil.
John Humphrys: Orangutans.
Sir David King: Never mind the orangutans - I mean, obviously important, but what about the oxygen that we breathe? I think we are talking about something very serious.
John Humphrys: But if you're growing trees and then chopping them down and growing more, isn't that all right?
Sir David King: Yes, the problem is that the UK will not be able to produce enough biomass in that way, so we'll end up importing far more trees - chopped-down trees - than present-day imports of coal.
John Humphrys: And then you've got all the CO2 that's involved in that.
Sir David King: Exactly, and the transport process - and, by the way, what does that do to our economy?
John Humphrys: So is it a dead letter?
Sir David King: Well, I believe this needs to be thought through very carefully. The EU requirement of 20% of final energy use from renewable sources by 2020 was aimed at reducing CO2 emissions. We mustn't interpret it literally and fail to achieve that objective.
John Humphrys: Not sure you quite answered the direct question of whether its a dead letter, whether it's -
Sir David King: I think it's pretty well a dead letter, but the point is, it's not dead in terms of policy, because the policy is there.
John Humphrys: Ah well, that's where I was going to ask you that - is there a strong political will to do it?
Sir David King: I believe there is, and it will be interesting to hear what John has to say.
John Humphrys: Right, well let's hear from him then. Strong political will - are you persuaded by Sir David's argument?
John Hayes: I'm not persuaded by it at all, John. You know, my present responsibility is to keep the lights on. And if the lights went off, there would be no use for me to say "Well, it was for the right reasons". So energy security is fundamental. That depends on a mix of kinds of generation. Bioenergy is part of that - it's only part of it -
John Humphrys: But why should it be, if it doesn't work?
John Hayes: Well, it does work, by the criteria that David King himself set. It's obvious -
John Humphrys: Well, no - he just said it does [?], he said it's a dead letter.
John Hayes: Well, let me - well, I disagree with him, as I've already said. It reduces the amount of carbon, it's 60% less carbon than coal, worth incentivising conversions of power stations from coal to biofuels, and that will lead to a direct reduction in carbon emissions and keep the lights on. I'm trying to do two jobs. I'm trying to make sure people get the power and light and heat they need, and I'm trying to reduce carbon emissions. And, you know, it's all very well having these kinds of slightly detached, kind of bourgeois views about these things. But I've got to deal with the practicalities -
John Humphrys: Really? Bourgeois? I think if I had children who were hungry, I wouldn't regard that as a bourgeois argument - I'd say let the Westerners find a way of keeping the lights on, I want to feed my kids with food I can afford.
John Hayes: You're right about sustainability. And that's why we're establishing - we have indeed already got, but we're doing further work on making sure the sources of this wood are sustainable. It can be produced in Britain, but you're right - David's right, the volume is such that we'll need to import wood. But you know, I was talking to the people in Virginia [?] in the United States - they've got immense plantations of wood, which are entirely sustainable. They grow wood to sell, to export, and then they grow it again, as you said in your question to David. So - this can be done. Of course we need to be careful. Of course we need to be responsible. But biofuels are part of an energy mix which is going to keep the lights on.
John Humphrys: Well you say - keep saying "keep the lights on". The fact is, you're locked in to a political commitment that arguably should never have been made, and you can't, politically, get out of it.
John Hayes: Which political commitment are you speaking of?
John Humphrys: That is the CO2 emissions reduction.
John Hayes: Well, CO2 emissions matter, and we've got a 2050 target to try and reduce them. But they're not all that matter. You know, I'm a bread and butter, practical politician, as I said. I'm not a -
John Humphrys: You're really serious, then -
John Hayes: Absolutely.
John Humphrys: - that we need to - that we need to have biofuels in order to keep that - if we don't chop up trees in little bits and feed them into our power stations, we can't keep the lights on, is that what you're saying?
John Hayes: We've been chopping up trees and burning them since man began, John -
John Humphrys: Sure.
John Hayes: - you know, fuel has come from a variety -
John Humphrys: There weren't too many power stations around, when man began, though, were they.
John Hayes: No, no, but fuel has come from a variety of sources since we started making fuel. So it's important that we have diverse kinds of energy production -
John Humphrys: But you're saying we've got to chop - you've got to use bio- are you absolutely clear about this? Let's be clear - that you have to have biomass, biofuels - whatever you want to call it - to keep the lights on.
John Hayes: It's part of the mix. And it's not just, by the way, wood. I'm very excited by the idea of energy from waste, and if we can get our waste policy working with our energy policy, that's truly sustainable. Bioenergy is not just about wood - it's about a whole range of means by which you can produce power. We've always done that. We always will. Because that mix guarantees resilience, guarantees sustainability, the very thing that David King's arguing for.
Sir David King: Can I come back -
John Humphrys: Go on, just a sentence - we've got to stop, then.
Sir David King: Well, I think the important thing for government is to keep the lights on. There I completely agree - I've got both my feet on the ground.
John Humphrys: Not bourgeois, then.
Sir David King: Existing strategies for delivering wind power, et cetera, these strategies must all be carried right through.
John Humphrys: All right, all right -
Sir David King: But burning palm oil to make energy - this is absurd.
John Humphrys: John - you've got to have a sentence in reply to that, John Hayes.
John Hayes: Well, I mean I'm delighted to have - that David's got his feet on the ground, he's not as bourgeois as I assumed. But you know, this is about having a balanced policy, a balanced energy mix -
John Humphrys: All right.
John Hayes: - we need a bit of gas, we need some renewables, we need nuclear. We need a mix, because that guarantees sustainability.
John Humphrys: Thanks, both, very much, Sir David King and John Hayes.