20040712_R4
Source: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
URL: N/A
Date: 12/07/2004
Event: Jonathon Porritt versus an "elite high priesthood of self-selecting scientists"
Attribution: BBC Radio 4
People:
- John Humphrys: Presenter, BBC Radio 4: Today Programme
- Jonathon Porritt: Environmentalist and writer
- Lord Winston: Professor, medical doctor and fertility expert
John Humphrys: Prince Charles has seldom been reluctant to offer his views, and it often gets him into trouble - a few days ago, he got a very sharp rap on the knuckles from a cancer expert, for talking about alternative treatments for cancer. Now it's nanotechnology he's having a go at, not for the first time - that is the science of manipulating materials on such a tiny scale it's hard even to imagine them, you could fit a million onto a pinhead, apparently, and the Prince says it's all extremely risky, could even lead to deformed babies being born. He'll get a ticking off for this, too - indeed, he's already had one. Lord Winston is one of our leading experts on fertility, and he's on the line, so is one of the Prince's defenders, Jonathon Porritt, who is on the Royal Society's Nanotechnology Working Group. Lord Winston, what's wrong with what the Prince said?
Lord Winston: Well, I haven't seen exactly what he said, but what I think is troublesome to me is that, again and again, there's a real opportunity for His Royal Highness - who I think is a very honourable, nice man - to really be helpful. And it seems a pity that really what is not happening is a careful discussion of the issues in science. We're living in a very science-suspicious society, and to raise these kind of spectres without really quite explaining why he's so worried I think is very unfortunate. The other thing, of course, is that nanotechnology isn't fully understandable by anybody - I think it's a very complicated issue, and I think, yet again, here's another example of where he's raised science scares, and I think really hasn't justified raising them.
John Humphrys: On the other hand - let me just make this point - if what he's doing - nanotechnology you say is something none of us understands, ordinary people certainly haven't got a clue, people who aren't scientists don't have a clue - but they do have this vague sense of unease, and they also have the fear that scientists, left to their own devices - fear justified or otherwise - will go off and do things, simply because they can be done, and then later we'll discover why that was a silly thing to do. If what he's doing is causing people to take a second look at it, then isn't that a good thing?
Lord Winston: Yeah, I think if he was doing that, I think that's true, but I think what is needed, actually, is not this kind of criticism, but a much more informed debate and a proper dialogue in society, and I don't think he's adding to that dialogue, by making unformed accusations which are not understandable. That, I think is a problem - for example, with the cancer thing, two weeks ago, and Michael Baum's objections in the British Medical Journal, the truth is that Prince Charles has never justified any serious evidence that these alternative therapies for cancer actually work. And, in consequence, many people may be very badly damaged, because they're worried as a result, and I think that that's very, very unfortunate.
John Humphrys: That's a serious point, Jonathon Porritt, isn't it.
Jonathon Porritt: Well, yes it is, and I think it's a great shame that Lord Winston hasn't actually seen what it is that Prince Charles said, because he wouldn't have made the comments he's just made, had he seen that, because Prince Charles is calling for exactly the kind of informed, intelligent debate that Lord Winston has just recommended. He's suggesting that that should involve not just the elite of today's scientific establishment, that it should involve the general public and that more effort should be made to explain what is a very complex and technical area of concern. And that, it seems to me, is a wholly legitimate contribution to the kind of debate that we all feel we now need. The idea there's any scaremongering, there's any mud-throwing, there's some attempt to disparage both the technology and the scientists and technology involved is entirely wrong. When Lord Winston actually comes to look at the article in the newspapers yesterday, he'll see that he's done exactly what he says people shouldn't do, which is to go off on a negative crusade before he's got the information, the facts at his fingertips - it's a great shame.
John Humphrys: I have it in front of me, the article, and he does talk about - for instance - thalidomide. I mean, just - just to raise that name, the very word "thalidomide", conjures up the most awful, horrible, images in people's minds, doesn't it.
Jonathon Porritt: But at the same time, John, since you do have the article in front of you, you would also acknowledge that what he's calling for, here, is a better balanced debate about this, bringing these issues out into the public domain, not leaving it to an elite high priesthood of self-selecting scientists.
John Humphrys: Ah well, there we are - is that what you are, Robert Winston, a high priesthood?
Lord Winston: I think that's disgraceful and I hope he will retract that, because, as never before, the science community is not merely trying to communicate, it's trying to hold very active dialogue at every level - at the Royal Society level, at the level of virtually every organisation like the British Association, and more science festivals and more organisations - people like myself are going round listening to what people are saying, and it's quite untrue to suggest that we're high priests of science. We have repeatedly condemned that, and indeed I've written about that extensively, and it's a pity, actually, that Jonathon Porritt hasn't written - hasn't read what I've written or what many of us have said about this, because of course the truth is that there has to be dialogue with the public, but I don't think that this is a very good way of going about it.
John Humphrys: Jonathon Porritt, just reply to that? He asked you to withdraw the "high priesthood"...
Jonathon Porritt: Well, I'm delighted that leading scientists now are doing a great deal better a job on communicating to the general public -
John Humphrys: But you just called him a "high priesthood".
Jonathon Porritt: Well, they still are a high priesthood, and they still consider that their contribution is superior to that of ordinary mortals -
Lord Winston: It's simply not true.
Jonathon Porritt: - and, you know, it doesn't help attacking someone who actually is precisely proposing the kind of debate that Lord Winston wants.
John Humphrys: Right, well, have to end it there, sadly - we could have gone on for a long time with this. Jonathon Porritt, Lord Winston, thank you both very much.