20131204_R5

Source: BBC Radio 5 Live: Drive

URL: N/A

Date: 04/12/2013

Event: Greenpeace on energy: "we can provide the vast majority, or even all of it" with renewables

Credit: BBC Radio 5 Live

People:

    • Alan Beith: British Liberal Democrat politician, MP for Berwick-upon-Tweed
    • Steve Crowther: Chairman, UK Independence Party
  • Anna Foster: Radio and television presenter
  • Roger Harrabin: BBC's Environment Analyst
    • Jonathan Overend: Radio and television presenter
    • Dr. Doug Parr: Chief Scientist and Policy Director, Greenpeace UK

Anna Foster: The government has cut the money it gives in subsidies to inland wind farms and solar energy, to give more help to offshore wind power instead. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, says that despite a fall in the cost of onshore turbines, overall investment is flat, so we should prioritise offshore turbines instead.

Jonathan Overend: The government has denied that the change was motivated by complaints from some Conservative MPs who are unhappy about wind farms in their constituencies. But the senior Liberal Democrat Alan Beith says many people in his constituency of Berwick upon Tweed are fed up with the growth in the number of wind farm applications.

Alan Beith: A lot of people are starting to say "Well, come on, enough is enough. We're feeling encircled, in some of the villages, by the - if all the proposals went ahead." If you put this alongside the better planning guidance, which attaches more weight to local community views, I'm hoping it will give a message to developers to say "Go to sea, go offshore, and develop your renewable prospects there."

Anna Foster: Well, our Environment Analyst Roger Harrabin has been examining what the changes could mean, for our energy supplies.

Roger Harrabin: Energy is an impossible balancing act for government, trying to achieve often contradictory policies at the same time. Let's start with onshore wind - its subsidy has been cut today, and that makes it cheaper than nuclear power, cheaper this decade and much cheaper in the long term. Ministers had hinted that the cuts would mean a big reduction in new wind farms on land, but experts are telling me that some turbines planned for not very windy sites won't now get built, but there are still plenty of windy sites where turbines can, and probably will, go ahead.

The money the government saves from cutting onshore wind subsidies will be switched to offshore wind. The government hopes that offshore wind can become a world-leading manufacturing industry in the UK, and people planning offshore turbines say the extra cash may help them make a go of it. But here's the catch - offshore wind is much more expensive than onshore wind, so every pound shifted away from onshore to offshore generates less electricity. And that, in turn, slightly increases the chances of blackouts in 2015. Who'd be a politician?

Anna Foster: Hmm, well, Steve Crowther is a member of UKIP - he was one of the lead campaigners against the £4 billion Atlantic Array wind farm, off the coast of the south west of England, which was scrapped - you'll remember we reported, actually, this on Drive - by R.W.E. npower last week, because it decided it would no longer make economic sense. We're also joined by Doug Parr, who is the Director of Policy at Greenpeace. Good evening to both of you.

Doug Parr: Good evening.

Steve Crowther: Good evening.

Anna Foster: Steve, to you, firstly, then - what do you make of today's announcement?

Steve Crowther: Um, it's not a great surprise, this direction of travel has been flagged up for some while. Um, it's essentially political positioning, as was said there. There are a lot of people in communities all over the country that are simply not prepared to put up with wind and solar developments all over their vicinity any more, so it makes political sense for the government to try and push the focus offshore.

Anna Foster: Hmm. It also makes sense, though, to be generating from somewhere - I mean, what are UKIP in favour of? Because you're against wind farms of all types, aren't you.

Steve Crowther: Well, to be quite clear, the problem with wind, you know - it's a very obvious problem - the problem with wind is that it generates electricity when the wind blows, the problem with solar is it generates electricity when there is sun on it. We are not against renewable energy, and the campaign that we've just fought very successfully against the Atlantic Array in the Bristol Channel, here - to put what would be the second largest wind farm in the world just off the coast of North Devon - was based on - first of all, it was absolutely the wrong place to put it, secondly, wind simply doesn't provide the answers that the government is looking for, to try and plug its energy gap, and thirdly, they were going to plonk it in the second-best place in the world to put large-scale tidal generation, and that's what we need to be focusing on, now. There is a chaos in energy policy.

Anna Foster: So, so, just to clarify, there - I'm trying to work out what you're in favour of. You're saying tidal power is where you think we should be going.

Steve Crowther: We're in favour of reliable energy generation, and the problem with wind is that it's not reliable. And therefore you have to take other measures to back it up and support it, and therefore all its advantages immediately evaporate. Um, the point is that we're in favour of reliable energy - that's what we need. We've got to keep the lights on - we're heading to a point at which, in two years' time, because we are arbitrarily closing a load of our existing power stations, we are going to have a massive energy gap, and we're going to have to either drive jobs overseas or see our lights go out.

Anna Foster: Mm, I still don't feel we've quite got to the point yet, though, which is: you're saying you're in favour of reliable energy, but you haven't quite told me what that is, in your eyes.

Steve Crowther: Reliable energy is all of the energy mix that we understand - it's gas, fossil fuels, nuclear, and so on - the problem is that our energy strategy has failed to provide us with those. We are looming - we have a looming energy gap, and the only game in town appears to be trying to throw up a larger number of wind turbines, but wind turbines don't provide the reliability that you need to plug an energy gap. And we believe we should be now biting the bullet and saying "Right, let's invest in reliable renewables" - if we're going to invest in renewables - "let's make them reliable ones where you can predict exactly what power you're going to get."

Anna Foster: So tidal power is a thing that you'd go for.

Steve Crowther: Absolutely.

Anna Foster: Doug Parr, you've just listened to what Steve has to say there, what are your thoughts?

Doug Parr: Well, first of all, er, I don't want to be put in the position of trying to defend government's energy policy, 'cause normally we're quite critical, but I think there is some sense in what they're doing today, because we do think offshore wind can offer the UK a number of benefits, one of which is cutting carbon. Secondly, we're at the start of a new industry, and we've got to start getting on to industries which - which are fit for the 21st century, and offshore wind is unquestionably one of those. We can pick up the jobs and growth that will come with that.

But to come to your point about how we manage energy, actually wind power can, and solar can, provide a great deal of what we need. If you look at the studies that have been done by people like Imperial College, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Dutch and German experts, and so on, they show that with a large increase in the level of connection between the UK and other countries, then the sort of variability that we see from, you know, the weather is something that is manageable. And that we can grow the proportion of renewable energy to much, much higher levels than is possible simply by looking at the UK on its own.

'Cause yes, it's true, of course, if you look at a single wind turbine, you know, sometimes it's generating, sometimes it's not. If you look across Europe, with a great deal of connection between different countries, the wind or the sun is always there somewhere. And that way we can provide the vast majority, or even all of it - of the power that we need across Europe - by taking that approach.

Anna Foster: Where does Greenpeace stand on onshore turbines versus offshore turbines, and the environmental impact of such? Do you have a particular thought on that?

Doug Parr: By and large, we always like to look at each individual application, when we're asked for our view, but by and large, we support onshore wind. I think what we've got in this country is a particular problem - and I, you know, I understand why people don't like the sight of onshore wind turbines - I happen to think they look good, actually - but what I think has been missing is the ability for communities and local people to participate and not just be - and not have wind turbines just, kind of, dumped on them by some external force.

I mean, there was a fascinating story, in the Telegraph of all places, earlier this week about a Gloucestershire village that's decided it wants a wind turbine - now, you know, home counties territory, wants a wind turbine because it stabilises their energy bills, they get something back from it. And I mean, that side of - that side of things has been neglected for far too long, in the interests of just thinking that the answer to all our problems lies in the Big Six energy companies. And if you look at the, sort of, suite of announcements that have gone through this week, you'll see that, by and large, it's them it's suiting, and it's not necessarily the wider interests of the public, like the fuel-poor.

Anna Foster: Okay. All right, thank you, both - Doug Parr, who is the Director of Policy at Greenpeace, and you also heard from Steve Crowther, who's a member of UKIP.