20140923_LS

Source: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme

URL: N/A

Date: 23/09/2014

Event: Lord Stern: "On the economic story, I'm optimistic, positive about what we can do"

Credit: BBC Radio 4: Today Programme

People:

  • Evan Davis: Presenter, BBC Radio 4 Today Programme
  • Bjorn Lomborg: Author, academic and environmental writer
  • Lord Stern: Baron Stern of Brentford, British economist and academic

Evan Davis: Over at the UN in New York today, they're not talking about Syria - although I suspect they'll be talking a little bit about that - it's a day for talk about climate change; 120 Prime Ministers and Presidents are there, called by the Secretary-General of the UN, Ban Ki-moon. Also in New York, for that big General Assembly session, is Lord Stern, Professor Nick Stern, the man who wrote a huge study of the economics of climate change 8 years ago - that was an official study for the UK government - he's also just written another one, not for the UK government. He remains pessimistic on the science of climate change but could be said to be optimistic on the economics of climate change. I spoke to him earlier.

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Lord Stern: I'll put to one side the pessimist on the science - I'm a realist and straight reader of the science. On the economic story, I'm optimistic, positive about what we can do. The technology's changed remarkably quickly, and particularly - as we show in this new report, Better Growth, Better Climate - we show that through the process of urbanisation, through the process of investing in energy in the coming three or four decades, there is a tremendous opportunity to invest well, invest in cities that are much less congested, much less polluted, to invest in ways which can reduce wastage, increase energy efficiency. So if we put together that great change, in the world economy that's coming and handle that well, then we can do a big part of what we have to do on reducing emissions.

Evan Davis: Now, you'll know that not everybody agrees with you - an old foe of yours, one that I suspect you don't much respect, is Dr. Bjorn Lomborg, the notable author of that book The Skeptical Environmentalist. This is what he told us.

Bjorn Lomborg: Saying that there is no trade-off is just simply not representative of the economic literature. It's very clear that with countries with high GDP growth also have high emissions of CO2. Now, you can cut that back, you can cut your carbon emissions, but the evidence overwhelmingly show that you will have lower GDP growth - not zero but lower GDP growth. And that's, of course, why countries like China has [sic] lifted about 680 million people out of poverty, but they have done so using lots and lots of polluting coal.

Evan Davis: He's taking a very basic fact there, isn't he, that the richer countries pollute more, produce more CO2. Is that evidence against the proposition you've just outlined?

Lord Stern: Well, I'm afraid Mr Lomborg, who's not an economist, is actually behind the curve - behind the curve on technology, behind the curve on China, and also misreading what the report Better Growth, Better Climate says. It does not say - and I have not said - that there's no trade-off. What I have said is that investing strongly in transforming our cities, as we urbanise, to make them function much better, by planning public transport better and dealing with waste and pollution much better, that that can do a lot of what we need to do - not all - but a lot of what we need to do, in cutting emissions.

Evan Davis: Lord Stern, Nick Stern, thanks very much indeed.