Bill Peffley continues his interview of Frank Duff on the early days of the Legion. In this interview Mr. Duff tells of the effects of the first retreat for the Street Girls and the founding of Sancta Maria Hostel. This interview was made on August 27, 1979.
Bill Peffley continues his interview of Frank Duff on the early days of the Legion. In this interview Mr. Duff tells of the effects of the first retreat for the Street Girls and the founding of Sancta Maria Hostel. This interview was made on August 27, 1979.
Q, Welcome to continued coverage of the history of the Legion of Mary as told to us by Mr. Frank Duff. When we were last discussing the incidents of Bentley Place and the origins of Sancta Maria Hostel, Mr. Duff was in the process of telling us the problem they had: "What were they to do with the girls after the retreat was over?" They couldn't see sending them back to their old way of life and Brother Duff and the priests had the problem to solve. We can take it up at that point.
A. During the day, that Friday, the retreat continued its way and Father Creedon proved himself to have an extraordinary capacity for dealing with their difficulties. Little problems kept arising during the day and there'd be a knock on our headquarters door. "Oh, Molly somebody is a bit upset." And every eye turned to Father Creedon. He was the person who showed himself able to deal with all these things. Out he'd go and in five minutes, ten minutes, he'd be back "Ah! She's all right now." So, well, then our thoughts would come back to the tortured question of a domicile for the girls. Now Mother Angela was in a state of acute nervousness during the earlier part of that day because everything that she had heard as to what these girls were capable of came to her mind and she was very much afraid. When she saw the lovely lot of girls, all of them practically young and pretty, she gradually realized that the last thing in their minds was real violence or anything of that description.
Father Philip, of course, turned out to be an extraordinary find. Towards evening Mother Angela, who had become pacified, opened up the door from their convent grounds onto the race course which adjoins and let us all out and we had sports on the race course. In these Father Philip took part and proved to be an unbeatable opponent in all events ... (LAUGHS) ... and ... then we had a little sing-song before bed and they all adjourned to their couches, leaving Father Philip. It had been agreed at this stage that I would not go home. They put up a bed in Father Philip's room and this was where I was to be. There was no feeling of sleep about either of us and we walked around the Nuns' garden until 4 A.M. talking over everything. At 4 o'clock we went into the Chapel and said the Stations of the Cross together and then went to bed.
The following day, Saturday, according to an agreement, Father Creedon, Father Devane and I met at the door of the government buildings and we asked for Mr. Cosgrave and we were brought into him. That was my first-Oh, No! It was not my first encounter. Of course, 1 had met him before officially. But the three of us in any case sat down opposite to his desk and we covered the sensational events. He became so interested and excited himself that he got up and he paced up and down the room as this narrative went on.
What was his position in the government then?
A. He was Minister for Local Government at that time. He was destined to become President very soon.
A, I see.
Q. He asked a certain number of questions and then he came back and he sat down. Then he took out a bundle of note paper and he pushed this over in front of me and he said: "Would you try to reduce all that to paper? There's a meeting of the government tonight," by which he meant the executive council, that is, the inner cabinet ring and he said: "I can't think at the moment of anything but this is certain you have to be helped." So, 1 wrote away and produced some sort of narrative and left this with him and we took our leave. Father Creedon and 1 went straight off out to Baldoyle. That day wagged away much like the previous one. Mr. Cosgrave said that we were to call the following morning and we'd get an answer. 1 think I went home that night. On the following morning Father Creedon and I called to the government buildings and we were given a letter which is on the wall of the little passage going into our oratory. It's a faded letter. We found that letter addressed to us in Mr. Cosgrave's handwriting informing us that the premises No. 76 Harcourt Street had been placed at our disposal, free of rent or taxes.
Q, Is that so?
A. Rent or rates for a period of 3 months. So, we went off out. This was joyful intelligence but seasoned with fears because Harcourt-l don't know whether you know Harcourt Street.
We visited it a few years back. A. Harcourt Street was an elect place specializing in professional people and hotels.
Q. O my!
Q. Is that so?
A. How were they going to regard the advent of our twenty-three lassies? What was going to happen when a Few windows got broken or when there was a drunken row on the pavement in front of the hostel? (LAUGHS) These were thoughts which could not be kept out ... (LAUGHS) ... and they prevented us from getting the full enjoyment out of the successful progress of the retreat itself. That was Sunday. Then came Monday and I went into the office. It was in the same building as Mr. Cosgrave's office. I went into the building and Mr. McCarron who was then Secretary of Local Government, one of the finest human beings that ever drew breath, a noble figure, came to me with the key to Sancta Maria and a check for fifty pounds. It was real money in those days.
Q. Fifty pounds!
A. And then I went up to my own office to see what was happening ... (LAUGHS) ... and who marched in but Tom Fallon followed by Father Creedon and Father Toher and Father Devane. Tom, you remember his telling us that the Archbishop had been dubious, began to say that we were mad to go into Harcourt Street and he brought up those arguments about rows and he insisted that the police would intervene at a very early stage and produce our eviction. Of course, that was so plausible that there was no argument about it and our only answer would be, "Can we not claim some degree of heavenly protection?" Well, that didn't satisfy Tom Fallon, who was one of the most capable administrators in the whole country, and who had to think along lines of the practical. So, this became terribly serious. Tom Fallon had the influence on us and, of course, Father Devane joined him in this too. I rang up Sir Joseph Glynn, who was the President General of the Vincent de Paul Society in Ireland. He had opened some years before a hostel for servant girls. That hostel was working in Dublin at the time. I made the astounding proposal to Sir Joseph Glynn that he vacate this hostel ... (LAUGHS) ... and put the girls anywhere at our expense. All we wanted was a little time. So, Sir Joseph treated this proposition as if we were lunatics ... (LAUGHS) ... and didn't give it half a consideration. After further anxious discussion they all departed. Oh, yes, I should have said the arrangement made was that after their breakfast in Baldoyle, the girls were immediately to leave and proceed to 76 Harcourt S reet.
And now a lot of time was being consumed in our discussions. The telephone was, as you know, cut off to Baldoyle. After trying to get through that way, I got a girl, one of the typists in the place, and packed her off to Baldoyle to ask the Nuns to keep the girls until after lunch. As a matter of fact they were gone before she arrived. They had come into Dublin and they had proceeded to 76 Harcourt and found it inhospitably locked against them. Now there was a moment of exceeding danger. But the ladies had sufficient influence with them to prevail on them to go into the Municipal Art Gallery which was in No.6 of that street and there they waited and waited until eventually they saw a familiar figure pass which was myself. (LAUGHS) I guess I'll have to ask your recollection. Did I tell you about our raid for furniture and mattresses?
Q. Yes, but not on camera.
A. Well, I'll have just give it its place. So, on my way up I dropped into Gabbett and I said that I thought I would need him. He rose up, put on his coat and he accompanied me up to 76. I used the key which had been given to me and the doors swung open and we entered. The place was laden down with untidiness, floor dirt and that sort of thing just as it had been left by the furniture removers. We were looking around when there was a patter of feet from outside and the girls all arrived on the scene in a big cluster. So we had a look around the house first. Other than an old counter which had been left behind as not worth taking away, there wasn't a stick in the house. The ladies ex- Hibited to us at once their marvelous competence in these household matters and they took charge. People were dispatched to buy brushes and a whole Lot of things that Father Creedon and I Had never stooped to. (LAUGHS) The van with the beds and bedding was on ts way but then where are the chairs? Where are they going to sit? Where are The tables? It was at that stage that the raid on Myra House took place as I have already mentioned.
Q. You mentioned that to me off camera. For the sake of our viewers you might want to retell the incident right now.
A. Oh! but surely I did.
Q. No, it was between our interviews.
A. Oh, well! It's most important to know. I said to Gabbett: "I know where we'll get a lot of furniture." And we went down together to a street called Great Longford Street. We hired a lorry and we drove up to Francis Street, Myra House, and went in and we took the two ends of a bench and we began to carry this out. The caretaker of the house was a man called Michael Healy. Michael Healy had been a Chief Petty Officer in the British Navy and he was a real giant. He was a bigger man even than Gabbett and he had a great defect of his speech as the result of a war injury. It was said that there were only two people in the world who could understand what Healy was saying. One of them was his wife and the other, Jim Finley, was the Secretary of the House Committee of Myra House. (LAUGHS) I never could understand a word he spoke. (LAUGHS) Healy was a terrible martinet and a strict Naval discipline prevailed. He bustled along-glub-glub-glub (mimics Healy's garbled speech) and I said: "Mr. Healy, we have to take away this furniture. We have to have it and I ask you to stand out of our way and not impede us. You have your duty which is that of reporting what we take out of the place. Now just content yourself with that because we will not permit you to interfere." Now whether my words had any effect or not I don't know. But Gabbett was standing beside me and he was as formidable a figure as Michael Healy. (LAUGHS) So, he stood out of the way and he went upstairs to his own quarters at the top of the house and leaning out, half way out of the window, he wrote down carefully every item that went onto the lorry. (LAUGHS) We took the furniture, except the good furniture in what was called the Board Room-there was good stuff there. But, and here's the extraordinary thing, we took all the stuff that had been transferred from Gabbett's own work in Cheater's Lane.
Q. Ah, yes.
A. It had all been transferred over to Myra House and we took it all with us. We drove off, the two of us on the lorry, with this big load. When we arrived down at 76 Harcourt Street, Gorevan's van was drawn up outside the place and the girls were helping to carry in the beds. The two ladies had already dispatched a party of the girls to buy the odds and ends. When we arrived, Gabbett took off his coat and he cooked the first meal eaten in that place ... (LAUGHS)
Q. Is that so?
A .... which is extraordinary if you think of it because we had a professional cook among the girls who afterwards gravitated into that very position in the house, a girl called Hannah Reekley. But Gabbett cooked the first meal. And then 'twas now well on in the day. After an elaborate tea a lot of people came in from outside and had, in what was destined to be the common room of the place, a tremendous session attended by all of us; the two ladies, some visitors from outside and all the girls. We debated life in the place and pointed out they were now going to enter a new phase of life and it all depended on themselves. We put them all on their honor and pleaded with them to stage a wonderful recovery and this went on. Oh! a lot of the girls spoke, a most marvelous thing. Before that stage of talking we performed the Act of Enthronement of the Sacred Heart. That picture of the Sacred Heart which is down in the office below, which was one of Gabbett's original possessions, was the instrument that we used in that ceremony.
Q. Wonderful!
A. Wonderful! Wonderful! Think of all the ways to carry on from everyone of these things! After that we had our discussion. It was then drawing late. At eleven o'clock that night Father Creedon and I left and listened to the door being locked against all comers ...
Q. That's a beautiful story.
A .... and we went off wondering ...
Q. No doubt as I am now wondering-what effect did the retreat have on the girls?
A. Oh! The effect of the retreat on manifest. Now you draw me onto something that I would not have touched because I wouldn't have thought about it. Partly by reason of the fact that the retreat led off and had proved the foundation of our whole enterprise and then its very evident success, led us to attach undue importance to the retreat. We made a solemn resolution that we wouldn't accept any girl into the place except through the channel of a retreat.
Q. Is that a fact?
A. Yes, and that led us on to something which we've always looked back to with great perplexity. When we were out in Baldoyle later on during the retreat, three more girls came out to add themselves on.
Q. Three more Street Girls wanted to make the retreat?
A. Yes, and we refused them.
Q. You didn't!
A. It was an anguishing moment. That would have us twenty-six out of the thirty. But we refused them because we said this would be a disturbing element coming in. They may upset the whole crowd.
Q. You were fearful that they might not fit in.
A. They hadn't fitted into something that we had agreed to regard as necessary. Now, one of those girls was murdered very shortly after that and provided a tremendous historical case here in Dublin of murder
So that ended the thing and common life was begun in the hostel. It proved to be very wonderful because the girls displayed a real determination to be good. Now that event went on until the very end of August. At the end of August we had provided for everyone of our population except six in various ways. Lucy Jones, the Protestant girl who had been received into the Church, entered Hyde Park Convent as a penitent and became after a little while one of the consecrated penitents who rank as a religious. She has been a model for all ever since that time. She may be dead at the moment. I do not know. But certainly she was edifying in the last degree. We restored the other Protestant girl to her former family, got jobs for several of them, married off several of them and each of these would constitute a tale in itself.
Q. Yes I'm sure
A. A lotof these girls would have among the miscellaneous hoard of men one man with whom there'd be an affection. Actually, one girl gave me the name of a man on the retreat itself and she told me that this particular person had often said to her that he would love to marry her if he thought that she could live straight.
She gave me his name and I went off and visited him. He listened to my tale about her and he said to me, "Do you think that she will persevere?" I said to him, "Well, it's not a thing that you can be sure of but she presents every appearance of it. I think she will." W ell, that marriage took place from my house.
Q. And who was the best man
A. I was the best man ... (LAUGHS) ... and one of the other girls was the bridesmaid. That was a very wonderful marriage. There was no looking back or anything of the kind and the bridesmaid likewise never looked back. But in any case in August we found ourselves with six girls in the place. So, it was time for another push. This time we were going to widen our touch a bit, that was only 25 Chancery Lane. Now we. went for all the lodging houses around that part of Dublin and it was started off.
Father Creedon, Father Toher and I were having tea in their premises one evening and the housekeeper came in and said a woman wanted to speak to Father Creedon. He left us and went down and he came back soon and said that the name of the woman was so and so and that her daughter was on the streets and she thought she was in this place 48 New Market, a lodging house. She'd heard about our maneuvers and could we try and get around the girl and get her back. So we had a debate about that and I went off by myself and I went into 48 New Market. I entered rapidly and without introducing myself to the authorities of the house, went up through the house. When I was halfway, I heard feet battering savagely on the stairs behind me. I went into the top room and into this top room burst a man who was the son of the proprietress. He was believed to have murdered a policeman here in Dublin, a most formidable type of individual, and he was minded to deal with me. So he wanted to know, "What the hell was I doing in his house.?" (LAUGHS) And I took him very gently and I told him that I was looking for this girl whose mother had just come up to the Presbytery and I convinced him that I was not coming in for irregular purposes so he left me talking to the girls. I went through the whole house. They all knew about the previous episode, everyone knew about Sancta Maria, and I then said I would come along the following day to try and talk to them. So I then went down to interview his mother and I got her permission to come in. She had another place just around the corner in 6 New Market Street and they were managed as one but they were separate premises. So, the following day I brought with me one of the legionaries and Lucy Jones.
Q. The girl who went into the convent later.
A. That's the girl who went into the convent. And we had the great trip through the whole house, spoke to every girl, and pleaded with them and secured a lot of very good hearing. Of course, Lucy Jones was perfect in all this transaction. She was vouching for everything and stilling all the doubts which might exert themselves. We arranged then for the same routine, the same charabanc, Baldoyle again, Father Philip again.
Q. How many girls went on this second retreat?
A. This time we started off with seventeen. The retreat accomplished itself normally and we found that we had amongst us one girl who was a pervert and wanted to come back. When this fact was discovered towards the evening of the last day of the retreat, Father Philip wanted to receive her back into the Church so she could make her communion with the rest of the girls. So I was sent into Dublin to approach a Vicar General to get the necessary permission. I ran all the way down to the electric tram and I was speedily transported into Dublin, caught a tram at (Nelson's) Pillar, came up to Harrington Street, where one of the senior Vicar Generals, Monsignor Fitzpatrick, lived. Just as I was approaching his house, I saw him waiting at the bus stop. My haste which might have seemed to be overdone proved to be absoluteIy vital. In a minute he'd be gone. I went up to him and I told him my mission and he said to me: "He must be a very young priest. Have you got any paper with you?" "No, Monsignor, no! He just gave me the message." "Who is he?" So I described him. "Oh! he must be very inexperienced indeed to ask a layman to bring this in, not a word on paper and not a word showing his identity, anything." So, he said, "Well, in the circumstances I am giving you permission to go back to him and say yes you may receive her." (LAUGHS) So I made great haste back then to Baldoyle and she was received into the Church there and then and took part in the communion the following day. Well, now that was the feast of Our Lady's Nativity.
The day which came into the first retreat was Our Lady of Mount Carmel and into the second retreat Our Lady's Nativity. We noticed that without design there was always a big feast of Our Lady in those exploits of ours. Well, now we had completely set a pattern. The house was going normally. There was another case that I might mention in this second retreat. There was a girl encountered in No. 48, a very big handsome girl, and she said to me when I first tackled her, she wasn't going. She wasn't a Catholic. I pointed out the non-Catholics who had come on the previous retreat. But ah, no! ah, no! She wouldn't come. No! No! Well, she was a very extraordinary case. She was perhaps the most powerful woman I had ever met. But what was extraordinary about her was that all here (indicates with a semi-circular motion the upper chest from shoulder to shoulder) which was visible and all her arms which were largely visible were tattooed.
Q. Tattooed!
A. And Inderstand that that was all over her body head to foot. We learned that that had been done by a Spanish sailor with whom she had been living for sometime. She was talking of leaving him and he said "I'll see you never earn an honest penny in your life." And he tattooed her one night when she was drunk.
Q. Could she have it removed?
A. We took advice about that. We brought her to experts and they said that the job was so deep that they could do nothing. If it were a surface transaction, by injecting milk in between the skins, then you can obscure all that, but not in her case. Well, what was my astonishment when she turned up to the bus and freely acknowledged that she was a Catholic all the time. (LAUGHS) When we were approaching her she said, "There'd be no use in my going with you because I couldn't be sober for a single day. I dread the streets so much I have to make myself drunk before I go out and I couldn't stay away from the drink." She started off when she came into Sancta Maria by giving us three months of sobriety.
Q. Marvelous!
A. And then I got a telephone call one evening to come at once. I did that and I found desolation in the house. She had gone off and for the first time loaded up with drink and gone mad. When I went into the big common room, it was just like a battlefield. They were all lying about. They'd all been beaten and knocked about by her and she was sitting there like a tiger-no opposition to her. She sat that way looking at me for sometime and then suddenly she jumped to her feet and made for me . (LAUGHS) and she got the surprise of her life . (LAUGHS) because I vanquished her, held her down on the ground by her throat. (LAUGHS) She always had the highest respect for me. She said she never got such a surprise because she boasted it always took three policemen to deal with her. (LAUGHS) Well, that now is the pattern of Sancta Maria as a going concern. The process of disposing of our girls began again. This brings us to the next stage which would be that of Bentley Place ...
Q. Bentley Place?
A .... because one evening at our meeting, the departure of one of our girls was reported. "Where had she gone to? Bentley Place." And that put us face to face with this particular problem. We haven't covered that at all have we?
Q. No. Something intrigues me. You said in an earlier interview that in Sancta Maria Hostel there was a very good legionary whom we met some years back by the name of Emma Colgan. Wasn't that the same lady that pointed you out to the priest when you were picketing 6 1/2 Whitefriars?
A. Yes, Emma Colgan joined the Legion and became one of our marvelous members. She was a member of the Praesidium of Our Lady, Refuge of Sinners of which Edel Quinn was the second President.
Q. Is that so?
A. And actually it was Emma Colgan who introduced Edel Quinn to our first lodging house which was that of 48 New Market.
Q. Is that a fact?
A. That was Emma Colgan. Oh! she was a wonderful person. Well, where do I stand?
Q. I was just wondering about something else regarding the girls on the first retreat. Did they all persevere in the life you set up for them afterward?
A. As far as I recall, there was only one girl out of that first batch that died in unpleasant circumstances and she was thrown into the canal. She had left us and she was thrown into the canal one night and drowned.
Q. Poor girl!
A. Well, that looks like she died in the midst of her trade but then there was a whole long record of good which had been staged by her and it doesn't do to be pessimistic as to her fate. The first party was the most incredible thing every known. The statistics of it constitute one of the great miracles of all history. You couldn't imagine anything like it, I can't think of any other except that particular girl. I wouldn't say that in the subsequent history of the place showed the same percentage. That would be too hopeful but I would be inclined to say two-thirds.
Q. We no longer have a Sancta Maria Hostel and I was wondering whether you'd want to say anything about that now.
A. As time went on a totally new complexion came over the problem and these low-down lodging houses which were our great means of supply disappeared. The girls began to be more prosperous. They began to get flats of their own to which they would bring men. This was all reflected in falling numbers in Sancta Maria. Towards the end we had three in the place as against the peak moment in our history, when we had over fifty ...
Q. Over fifty!
A .... and had to put beds on the floor for them. But in the end in spite of our clutching onto the place which had accomplished so much, we felt it was an inevitability that we should close down. Of course, at the same time we were not abandoning the problem. We have a couple of praesidia exclusively engaged on it but they seek to get their subjects now by Street Work. As a part of that we have what we call the Late Night Picket which is just a sensational miracle. Could I say a word about it now?
Q. If you like.
A. Well, this started on Saturday nights when a group of these very wonderful women and men go out onto the streets shortly after eleven. We have a house over in this particular district which is a hotbed for that trouble and this house remains open till about three in the morning and we have the permission to have the Blessed Sacrament. There'd be always one, two, three, four priests available and by a real novelty a brother and a sister go out together and they tackle the man as well as the girl. Now that is a big surprise for myself because, although nobody could have done more of that sort of work than I did, I regarded the man as being just veritably insane. There'd be no use talking to him. I would talk to him but to expect that I was going to make any ground, "Oh, no, no, that man's not in possession of his senses." (LAUGHS) But now we have unearthed a new order. The man is far more approachable than the woman. The proposition is that the girl or man, both of them, should come over to our house to have a cup of tea and this they readily do. They come over. One floor is reserved for the girls and another floor is reserved for the men. The idea is to have a chat with the man and, of course, the woman too. They try to get them to see a priest and I'd say the generality of men are willing and do see one of the priests and, what is stranger still, finish up by going to Confession and getting Holy Communion. Now this to me is startling in its quality. (LAUGHS)
Q. It's startling to me, too.
A. It's hard to understand but there it is. To give you what heights this can reach, on one occasion fifteen and on another occasion sixteen men went to Confession and Holy Communion in a night.
Q. And that's between the hours of say 12 and 3 in the morning!
A. 12and3!
Q That's beautiful! Beautiful!
A. So the work was started off on Saturday night. Then for a fair time past they had been doing Friday night as well. Great figures in that are Jack McNamara and Aileen O'Donaghue, who probably would be chief figure in the thing-a person of indomitable and unbelieving spirit. (LAUGHS) She's one of our cycling team and I hope to think that the cycling has contributed to her efficacy and efficiency!
Q. The late night picket is quite a change from the original work
A. You have this evolution if you're patient and faithful . It seems to develop not at all in the way you expect. It goes off at a tangent but what emerges is of the providential policy. Well Now I have come to the eve of the Bentley Place venture.
Q. I think that now would be an ideal time to stop. Our next interview will begin with the history of Bentley Place. We have just been treated to a touching exposition of the history of Sancta Maria Hostel and the early days of the Legion. Thank you very much, Mr. Duff.
This interview is available on video-cassettes and audiocassettes from:
Can cilium Legionis Mariae, Morning Star A venue, Brunswick Street, Dublin 7, Ireland.