AN INTERVIEW WITH FRANK DUFF "ORIGINS"
HOW DID THE LEGION OF MARY GET ITS NAME? WHO WROTE THE HANDBOOK? Why IS THE LEGION PROMISE DIRECTED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT?
These and other questions Frank Duff answers in the course of this interview hosted
by Al Norrell, VicePresident of the Philadelphia Senatus.
The interview took place on August, 25, 1979.
Q. Today we have with us Mr. Frank Duff, one of the original members of the Legion of Mary. Mr. Duff started the Legion back in 1921. The Legion of Mary is now a world·wide organization numbering one and a half million active and ten million auxiliary members. Mr. Duff, how did this organization come to be called the Legion of Mary?
A. Now that question limits me and indicates to me that I should start with the fact that the organization which came into being in September 21 was not at first called the Legion of Mary. The organization that issued that night called itself the Association of Our Lady of Mercy. That name was dictated by perhaps two factors: one was the Feast of Our Lady of Mercy which occurred on the 24th of the month; another factor would have been the first work proposed by that little band was the visitation of the hospital for the poor known as the Dublin Union which had 4,000 people in it of the poorest types. The Nuns, when the suggestion had been made to them that the Legion should be allowed' to come up and visit, welcomed it with extraordinary cordiality. The Reverend Mother said that she would request every Nun in the place to offer Mass and Holy Communion for the success of the venture. Out of those circumstances probably arose that name.
Now it's a peculiarity which had to be faced up to that, although the organization was meeting at First Vespers of Our Lady's Nativity (September 7th), that that fact was not adverted to. The next day was the Feast of Our Lady's Nativity. Instead they looked ahead for a matter of days and they called it by that other title. Well, elsewhere I have already described the peculiar circumstances of the place of Our Lady at that initial meeting and, I suppose, there's no need to recapitulate them here.
But the fact was that the members who met on that first fateful night had in their minds an idea of Our Lady and her position in the order of grace which was derived from DeMontfort.
Seventeen days before that there had been a special gathering in response to the big question: "Oh, we want to know more about DeMontfort and his devotion. We are interested but we don't understand it." That meeting was held, we discussed the question for two hours and came to no visible conclusion inasmuch as no resolution was passed and indeed no decision of any kind was come to.
But that meeting, as events proved, established in each of those persons present a conviction regarding Our Lady's essential place. And when that first gathering on the First Vespers of Our Lady's Nativity took place, they embodied the idea without any discussion. There was no proposing, seconding, or argument. They had this picture and that was Our Lady's place in the Legion. Afterwards it was a complete inevitability that the organization should name itself after her.
Now Providence showed itself very much in that whole situation because if the decision were taken at that first meeting in regard to the final name of the Legion, I tremble at what would have happened. I think myself that it would have been called The Patricians. (Smiling)
Q. You think it would have been called The Patricians!
A. (Smiling) I think it would. You see, the organization indirectly emerged from the Conference of St. Patrick to which we owed the hospitality of Myra House. That conference was accustomed to say as part of its opening prayers each week: Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us; Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us; Sf. Joseph, pray for us; St. Vincent DePaul, pray for us; St. Patrick, pray for us.
Q. And so you think it would have been called The Patricians.
A. I
think that if it had gone down into an argument, it would have called itself that. I think it might have been. But then that possibility was, I suppose, completely stymied by the fact that they unhesitatingly called it after Our Lady. I'm only replying to your question as to what could have happened if they didn't have that outlook.
Well, now, that would not have been the right name for the Legion for various reasons. It would have been a convenient name. It would have supplied a noun to denote the members. It would have been convenient enough but the unhesitating eye of the Legion was on Our Lady. It started off under that title and very shortly afterwards a second branch came into existence. That second branch called itself the Immaculate Conception. The third called itself Our Lady of the Sacred Heart and the fourth, Our Lady, Refuge of Sinners.
Now those four branches emerged in the first year. After that in slow succession came the other names and, you might say, "At what stage did the idea of the final name or a global name insert itself?" Well, I suppose that the moment was when the Dublin Curia was established. When, I think, five or possibly six branches were in existence, the Curia was established and it held its first meeting in Myra House. From that moment the need of a name, of course, became emphatic.
What is its name? Now, this became so felt that after a little while a Novena was ordered for enlightenment. And this Novena, I am sure, was conscientiously fulfilled by all the members of the Curia. And the meeting came on and that item in due course presented itself, the name. Oh, quite a fantastic number of names were suggested. Most of them were unthinkable (LAUGHS)-unthinkable! One of them was, for instance, undoubtedly inspired by the Patrician note, and that was the Society of St. Bridget. At this stage we had reasonably made up our minds that we were not going to put any national label on the Legion and, to an extent, that ruled that out. The idea of Bridget was the feminine note asserting itself, because the Legion at that time was a women's organization. Various other names were proposed and then I presented the name, "The Legion of Mary."
Now, I interrupt to tell you why I had that name in my mind. The previous night I had been thinking and thinking and thinking over the name of which I recognized the importance. A name can make or mar an organization. I was thinking anxiously. It was well after midnight and I suppose that I was thinking of going to bed. I was on my feet at the time and there is in my room, not my bedroom but where I work, a very beautiful picture of Our Lady. I stood in front of that looking at and into my mind came "The Legion of Mary."
That is a really beautiful story!
A. Now, there was no question in my mind when that name was there but that it was the right name-utterly certain there was the name. I don't suppose I thought again about the matter until I brought it up at the meeting and to my complete consternation, it was rejected! I don't remember ever feeling so distressed as when that happened because all the other names that had been suggested were defective in some way or another. That this obviously perfect word should be passed over was unthinkable. Fortunately there was agreement in regards to the fact that none of the other names were suitable. And so no choice was made.
We drifted back to the old situation and remained in that for a further period. The considerations which demanded a name renewed themselves and again a Novena was ordered and again the item was raised at the meeting. I said nothing because I had done my best. Again the whole series of the same old names, with perhaps a few new ones, was proceeded to. Then Father Creedon turned to me and said: "Surely, you have some suggestion." I had made no contribution to the debate. My reply was: "Well, I mentioned a name last time and I have not been able to improve on it." Result carried unanimously.
So you presented the name "The Legion of Mary" again and it was unanimously accepted. Just shows what can happen!
A. Just shows. Now I would regard that choice of name as having almost determined the future of the Legion because it carried a whole series of consequences along with it. All our Roman terminology followed as carriages would follow a train. The Latin idea came in. Now you had a fine name, Legionary of Mary. And you were able to look back at the Legion of ancient Rome and recall its tremendous exploits and spirit on the human plane-the mightiest military organization that has ever been which has imprinted itself upon history-success, bravery, all these things. It gave us another handle to inspire the legionaries with. And so, there now, it had its name. And I would think that no doubt has ever existed in my mind as to the appropriateness of the name.
Now, what is the next point? That brought the Tessera with it. You find on the Tessera this tremendous advancing host with their banners and the Vexillum. The Vexillum grows directly out of the Roman connection. There is (pointing up to the Vexillum) the story of how that came into being. J think you had a banner here during the morning's proceedings. Well, that banner is on the Tessera, another part of our rich ritual. Does that answer your question?
Q. Oh, yes. Indeed it does.
A. Of course the name led on to the distinctive compliment of ritual and all other sorts of interesting things the Legion possesses.
Q. The handbook is another item which stands out in our minds. Perhaps there are people who think that some man in Dublin just sat down and wrote a book and we have to obey it. Could you tell us just how the handbook came into being?
A. Yes. The Legion has always declared that it was an unpremeditated organization. Nobody sat down at the beginning and put on paper what the Legion was intended to be. It was never anything remotely like that. Speaking to you the other day I said that one of the happier features about the Legion was the small human participation in its shaping and leaving it to be assumed there was divine shaping. The history of the Legion has that character of one step leading to another step. No planning. Planning almost nil and yet the perfect thing taking place. So, the Legion Was started without a handbook and without prayers. They prayed by tradition. This monthly meeting which had preceded the coming of the Legion had as its prayers the invocation of the Holy Spirit which precedes our Rosary, the Rosary itself and those ejaculations. That's what Number One Legion meeting began with, by tradition, by just following what was. There was no Catena and the concluding prayer which was said for some time was the St. Vincent De Paul concluding prayer. Now, of course, these things had to be improved on.
I've told you that this first meeting of the Legion invoked St. Vincent De Paul and St. Patrick. Now, the process of tinkering around with some of those saints began and after a while the concluding prayer of the Legion emerged, the present one, and when that was proposed to the members, it was unhesitatingly accepted as suitable. The Catena came a little bit later. It was felt that we should just have a sort of insertion of prayer somewhere in the middle of the meeting and that produced the Catena. The prayers were approved-that's a very important thing-before any other written item of the Legion Program.
Q. They were approved?
A. They were approved-given the Imprimatur
Q. I see
A. At that moment we had roughly our present form. When we introduced ourselves outside Dublin in 1927, we were fairly armed with characteristic usages and with prayers. We were, in other words, the modern Legion. The first circumstances that brought peremptorily before our minds the necessity for having something printed was our proposed entry into Scotland. Now we were up against another country with all sorts of possibilities of divergence and for that you must have some little thing on paper. We put down a brief exposition of the Legion of Mary which would be there in our records. We kept exact records from the first second. There was nothing slipshod along the road. That gave a truthful, but, of course, very sketchy account of the Legion but enough to be able to start on. That meant that the first branch in Scotland did start with a printed document. Out of that began to emerge the handbook because we began to think in terms of formal approbation of the society and that, of course, demanded a written presentation with a reasonable degree of fullness.
So, the handbook was written from what was in existence. It was the very opposite to what would be usually called a handbook. Normally, anything of that kind is written in advance of an organization and the organization seeks to conform itself to it. Here was quite the opposite. The organization was like the growing child and reached the stage when it became, perhaps from the medical or anatomical point of view, necessary that we understand the thing. How's that child work? What are the important features and so forth? The handbook endeavored to put down precisely on paper what it saw.
Q.Did you do most of this writing?
A. I did most of the writing, yes. Now in all that I was just minutely examining what was at work, no planning, just examining and photographing to use a suitable image in this particular place (looks at video camera). Now that's the slory of the handbook.
Q.
Amazing! A. And everything in the meantime before the final emergence of that document produced many little changes. Everything else was just tradition. As a very interesting item, the first President chosen at the first meeting was a lady called Mrs. Kirwan who actually was born at the opposite side of the globe, in New Zealand. If you plumbed through the earth (looks down and points) from here, she was born where that line would come out on the other side, Dunedin, New Zealand. She was a very masterful person. She was the only person of years in the first gathering. She was a wonderful character and she governed her little flock, including myself and Father Toher, with a rod of gold (LAUGHS). But she did not spare us when necessary (LAUGHS) and she got the rule kept.
Q. So, she got you to keep the rule!
A. She got the rule kept. She had a quiet way of putting you in your place and keeping things in order. I remember one of the finest episodes that could be recorded during that time was a wonderful case where two very young legionaries had brought off a daring exploit and they were telling it. We were listening there with utter intensity. Finally the story rolled to its conclusion and they sat there no doubt expecting what they got and that was a tremendous ovation. We all clapped violently. During this Mrs. Kirwan sat there quite impassively and the moment of quiet came in the end. She said to them, "Y ou broke a rule. And there is no merit in the whole transaction for you." (LAUGHS)
Q. They had broken a rule! (LAUGHS) And lost all their merit! Could you tell me are any other members of the first praesidium surviving today?
A. There is at least one who is in the same praesidium as myself.
Q. And who is that Mr. Duff?
A. It's a lady called Rose Dingley.*
Q. Rose Dingley? A. Rose Dingley. Not too long ago another died who was a First-Nighter. I'd say that they held out very remarkably in the point of years.
Q. I would agree. Fifty-eight years is a long time to attend weekly meetings and do an assignment everyone of those weeks.
A. Visitors to that praesidium are dearly impressed when they are told that there is another besides myself present who is a First-Nighter. (LAUGHS)
Q. No doubt they are! Could you tell us how the Legion Promise came about?
A. Yes. Strange to say, the Legion Promise is very much associated with Pentecost. The idea had often been suggested that there should be a Legion Promise. That's a view easily said but to put that into being, is utterly difficult. Of what nature is it to be? A mere promise could be a very empty sort of proceeding. You could have a formula there that would be just a promise and no more.
Whereas here you have somehow or other to minister to the whole scheme of the Legion. You have to make the member declare some understanding of what the Legion really is and say it in circumstances that are of great solemnity. This requires some degree of faith, real faith. And then to take the further step of refusing to incorporate into the organization a person who raises difficulties about this. Obviously, that declaration was just like the physical things of the Legion such as the Tessera (points to it aside of him), the Vexillum (points to it behind him). It must in its whole get-up mirror the spiritual system of the Legion. The Holy Spirit surmounts the whole picture in all these things-in its prayer system, in the Tessera which was an artistic pictorial thing and in the Vexillum. That has to be pictured.
So, it was on Pentecost Sunday-l hesitate in giving you the year because I don't recall it exactly-down in the Monastery of Mount Melleray that the detailed idea presented itself to me. And the rather electrifying conclusion emerged that it must be directed to the Holy Spirit and not to Our Lady. That's what you would call electrifying because up to that stage, while the prayers began with the Holy Spirit and while the Holy Spirit surmounted these artistic things, still Our Lady was the dominant personality. Our Lady was what people thought of and in a very secondary way, the Holy Spirit. But out of that came the revolutionary notion: "Well, we've got to put firstthings really first." And the Promise was written in the form in which it now exists.
I would say that that was rather a momentous moment in the history of the Legion. It was a moment of comprehension when the Legion for the first time really got some glimpse of itself as the Legion of the Holy Spirit. You were not switching over, so to speak, your allegiance. You weren't rejecting Our Blessed Lady in favor of something bigger. No! You were seeing more clearly into Mary and what emerged from it was a tremendous awareness of the Holy Spirit-what the Holy Spirit was in her. That was how the Legion Promise emerged.
To get things adopted in the Legion today is a very difficult process. I'd just as soon not have the job of suggesting anything in the Legion today because they're a little bit more independent, more intelligent, more exacting than they used to be. Their standards are really higher. And there is a questioning attitude now. Do you remember those Rosary proposals we made to the United States of America ...
Q. We do.
A
.... a few years ago? Well, we had an intense conviction here. We were unanimous in regard to those proposals and yet the United States turned them down.
Q. I remember that well.
A. In conformity, we think, with the Council, we also wanted to change that initial prayer of the Holy Spirit, "Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of the faithful and enkindle in them the fires of divine love ... " We regard that as a terribly colorless prayer and we wanted to introduce the translation of the new prayer for Pentecost Sunday. Now, largely the United States of America took the lead again in knocking that over. These are the things you referred to before: "Was I ever disappointed in the Legion of Mary?" Well, in things of that kind, yes!
Q. So, there were things that disappointed you!
A. Yes, not that I would reconcile myself to the idea that it was final but it looked that way. In any case, when this thing about the Promise addressed to the Holy Spirit was placed before the Concilium, it was unanimously adopted right away and that is a wonderful circumstance.
t took two years, involving 12 or 13 debates, to add St. John the Baptist to the list of patrons because there was a very distinct opposition amounting to over 30% That would not be that they had A ny radical objection to St. John the Baptist nor that they would disagree with what is now attributed to him. But· they were painfully afraid of tinkering with the system. They said: "We'll now have every saint in the world presented to us for incorporation into the Legion, every saint on earth." Of Course, that is a possibility. And it was from that point of view that the op- position presented itself and it took two years to eliminate it. Well, that's how the Promise came into existence and it has been tremen- dously justified. Here and there have arisen some examples of members who have hesitated. There are some phrases about Our Lady's role in regard to the Holy Spirit which seem to contain the suggestion that she enjoys His full power and that's too much for some of the brethren. (LAUGHS)
Q. What do they say?
A. They say: "I can't take that." The rules provide for a period of thought and then if that person is still obdurate, he cannot be received. And that's been absolutely steadfastly adhered to.
Q. Each year we go to the Acies and we find it to be one of the most beautiful ceremonies in the Legion of Mary. Could you tell us how the first Acies came about?
A. Yes. There already had emerged certain periodic functions, for instance, the Annual Reunion. So much so quickly asserted itself that it (the Annual Reunion) took place on the First Anniversary of the coming into existence of the Legion. There's a picture of it down in the office below, a picture of the first assembly of the total Legion. Now that emerged quickly. Then emerged the recommendation that each Praesidium should hold a reunion of its own members. That recommendation has had a mixed fate. I couldn't call that a general service of the Legion since very few praesidia follow it. But it was only a recommendation. Well, then came the question of a very serious function and that is the solemn consecration of the Legion. That was a remarkable event which will remain in the minds of those who took part in it. The venue determined was in that big room.....
Q .... where Concilium meeting is held.
A. Yes, where you have the Concilium meeting. The number of members in Dublin at that particular time was something over 550. Well, now, the first question was how are you going to get 550 members into that room and maneuver them. This involved chalking out the whole floor. In preparation we had got the numbers of each praesidium and we allowed them a certain amount of square space for each member and room for passages. In the corner of the room at that time was a platform for singing and that sort of thing for the women of the Regina Coeli. On this platform was erected the altar and the members had to proceed up to that altar to make the short Act of Consecration before the Vexillum and to return to their place.
A very important person at the time who happened to be present at that ceremony was the future Bishop of Galway. He happened to be up with me about something or other and I told him about this ceremony and he declared his wish to be present at it and he was. He declared emphatically that it was the most impressive thing he had ever seen. So it was because that big body of people made the consecration singly. It was tremendously devotional and, as the handbook itself says about it, from its first presentation it established itself as the leading function of the Legion of Mary.
Q. You briefly mentioned earlier the first Annual or General Reunion. Would you tell us now what is to be the character of the General Reunion?
A. Well, nothing very specific has ever been laid down except that the Legion prayers should be said, that there should be some sort of spiritual address and then that they should make it a genuine good class entertainment for themselves.
Q. Real enjoyment, right?
A. Yes, the note is to be an enjoyment, lightheartedness. We have made recommendations that it shouldn't be held in hotels nor should it be an expensive proposition because that rules out simpler people. The question of the availability of drink should be considered in a negative way. There are some curiae that resorted to hotels where there'd be a bar and there you had the possibility of the whole function going astray. It need not be a luxurious thing. I remember in my one and only visit to the United States of America, when I visited Dayton, that it corresponded with the General Reunion of the Legion. It was in the month of December and they held that in a hotel and a far too luxurious repast was placed before the members. I found myself, while availing of it (LAUGHS), disagreeing. You have to be very careful about these things remembering that we should be catering all the time for lesser brethren. They and not the "Upper Crust" must be the special solicitude of the Legion. (LAUGHS)
Q. We are glad to hear you say that because some groups do go in for the hotels and the luxurious meals ...
A. It's a wrong note. You see, we're speaking from practical experience where we have found out that a large family who are all in the Legion couldn't come.
Q. Right, right.
A. Take Dr. Seidel who has been here for the last few days. Well, he has four of his children in the Legion in addition to his wife and himself. If they are going to be made to pay the charge that the present day hotel makes for a meal, well, it's a huge expenditure for them. There's no need for it. They are not coming in hungry off the streets. (LAUGHS)
Q. That's true. (LAUGHS) So, they're coming in with their meal behind them just for a social evening.
A. Ah, the note of simplicity must exist.
Q..Well, I think that this is a good note for us to end on, the note of simplicity which the Legion has tried to stress with its members throughout the years of its existence. We'd like to thank you, Mr. Duff, for being with us today and for giving us this interview on the Legion Promise, the Acies, the Legion name, and the handbook. We thank you again.
This interview is available on video-cassettes and audiocassettes from:
Concilium Legionis Mariae, Morning Star Avenue, Brunswick Street, Dublin 7, Ireland.
Rose Dingley joined the Legion on September /4, /92/ and is still an active member (Dec. '82).-Editor's Note