Note : This turn stall is caused by a turn carry from the previous game turn
La-5F #2, 4915/5016, NW, 8.0, 3.0, LB, -4.5, LVL (1TTL)
Minimum Speed for a TT is 3.5 (slats do not help a Regular pilot make a TT) => Turn Stall occurs
Turn Stall Rolls:
Duration : D5: 2 + 2 (Regular) = 4 FPs of Turn Stall
Roll Direction : D10: 6 (even) => roll right
Number of turn stall roll FPs : D5: 4 stall roll FPs LB>LV>RB>IR>IV
Power=M(8), No Transition, 3H/0V
MC=0.0,V=0.0,OC=-0.0, Total = (-0.1)
3H(-0.1)
A/C stall rolls to IV, Attitude adjusts to ISHD
(0c+8p+0da+2dv)-(4.5c+4tr+0ca+0cl+9m+(0-0)t+0mv+0os) = 10-17.5 = (-7.5)
La-5F #2, 5113, NW, 7.9, 2.5, IV, -2.5, ISHD (1TS)
Rob R
(https://fw-game-11.groups.io/g/main/message/4761) 19/12/2011
1. This is an NG transition, requiring HT rate ability. Being severely damaged you need a min speed of 4.0 for this transition.
Transition invokes a turn stall.
2. Engine is both damaged for 1 step power loss and severe damage removes another 1/4 power. Normal = 4, drops to 2.5 then 1/4 down to 2.0. So 2.0 is max power available.
--- In SC_Fight_Charlie@yahoogroups.com, "WayneR" <awhitestreak@...> wrote:
>
> E1
> 2733 W, 12.5, 2.0+, RB, -2.5, 3RR, STC
power = 2.0
> Push NG TT-2 = Turn stall = no transition, 1H+1V stay in steep climb
TS FP duration roll = d5 = 5+ any pilot factor = ? Cannot be more than double speed at start = 4 FPs.
TS roll direction = 1 odd = left, TS roll FPs = D5 = 4 applied at snap roll rate regardless of damage (2+2damage-1 snap = bank in 3). 3 = unwind RR carry, 1 = 1FP carry toward LV
MC=0.1, V=0.3, OC=0
No turns or maneuvers allowed.
1H+1V
2p - 3ca-12cl-9turn stall effects-2.5c = 2-26.5 = -24.5
adjust nose one step toward earth = SHC
SBD-E1 = 2732 W, 12.9, 0.0+, RB, -4.5, SHC, 1RL (sev. damage, stalled)
This plane is now stalled, which takes precedence over continued turn stall.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/SantaCruz-FW-Fight-C/message/2100) 22/08/2012
In reference to Full Rules 3rd edition playtest rules, 4.6
If the turn stall was caused by a BTx3 pull transition (too slow to BT), is the decel retained for the disallowed illegal action for 3 x BT rate, or from only one BT rate maneuver ?
Just one BT decel cost.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/1917) 22/06/2012
About the stall rolls ("immediately credited to A/C" at snap roll rate when you do a turn stall), I would like to have one thing clarified.
Are the stall rolls immediately performed, by the A/C stall rolling immediately to the new bank angle, or are the stall rolls performed one by one at the snap roll rate.
The rule says that the stall roll FPs are credited instantly, meaning that the rolls are preformed immediately and the aircraft's bank changes to the new bank angle before it starts to move.
Rob R.
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2053) 30/08/2012
Design note - all the game mechanic is doing is presetting the wings to the position they will be in when the plane exits the turn stall for any reason.
This is simply for ease of play.
In effect, a plane in a turn stall is not flying under control. It is out of control and randomly banking in that time frame. For that reason there is no rule for flying out the turn stall induced bank change FP by FP.
Hope this helps.
J.D.
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2056) 30/08/2012
Does an A/C that attempts a turn and/or transition that calls for an overstress roll need to make that roll if the A/C doesn't have the speed to perform the turn/transition and suffers a turn stall?
Yes - all effects of the illegal rate are still checked for. Damage, Gloc etc....
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/535) 28/03/2006
At the end of the Turn Stall procedure a Recruit pilot must perform one turn of random flight. In the case of I-15 #5, it will have 1 FP left of Turn Stall this coming turn and then will have 3 FPs left. Should the random flight start immediately after the last FP of the Turn Stall or does it wait for the following game turn? If started immediately after the Turn Stall FP, does the I-15 gain control for the following game turn?
The rule reflects disorientation of the inexperienced pilot, when things haven't gone the way he expected. I think it should be played as follows.
Next turn, Complete turn stall, play final 3 FPs as allowed.
Following turn, do 1 turn of random flight.
Following-following turn, normal flight allowed.
Doing it any other way means trying to mesh the turn of recovery from the turn stall with the turn of disoriented flight and rules do not exist for doing this.
JD
(https://fw-game-11.groups.io/g/main/message/5158) 23/03/2012
Recruit suffers a turn stall for 7 FPs.
He is at speed 5, so GT-1 he still is in turn stall for 5 FPs, because the turn stall happened on the first FP (caused by transition).
On GT-2 he have 2 FPs left of turn stall.
Rule 4.6.1 says :
Turn Stall Disorientation: Recruit pilots (Chapter 13) who
turn stall must, upon completing the procedure, fly the next turn as
random flight (Rule 5.7) due to disorientation unless also stalled
or spinning, in which case the Stall / Spin rules take precedence.
To follow what is written, we have to ask the question when is the stall procedure complete. To me it is complete when all TS FPs have been flown.
So game turn 3 should be random flight.
So it is Game turn 1 = Turn stall caused by wrong transition
GT-2 = Turn stall finishes.
GT-3 = Random flight
But what is odd is that on GT-2, MiG #2 will spend 2 FPs as a turn stall, then 3 FPs as normal FPS where he could do maneuvers, and then on GT-3 he would be on random flight.
This does not seem logical to have controlled FPs in the middle between the turn stall and the disorientation.
Maybe the disorientation should last for a number of FPs ? But the disorientation rule is designed so that it includes a transition (or not), a bank (or not) and a turn (or not).
If the random flight begins on GT-2, the transition part of the disoriented flight cannot happen, as a transition was already selected (none) for GT-2.
So how does this work ?
I think you guys are overthinking this.
Designer's intent should be clear by the written rules - which is, a recruit pilot is disoriented after a turn stall.
So how to interpret the situation:
Turn stall lasts half way into GT2, after which, some FPs are left over.
The actions of these left over FPs must then be randomly generated due to the disorientation.
As Patrice says, random flight is simply random rolls for pitch change, bank change and turning:
So looking at where in the game turn they are invoked is the key.
Transitions are decided at the beginning of a game turn - so the turn stall settles that - no pitch change allowed.
When the free flight, non-turn stall FPs begin, a bank angle is already established, but no turning. Both of these can still be changed by random flight. So roll for banking and turning with those remaining FPs.
Next game turn is a full turn of random flight, after which the recruit may roll for re-orientation.
JD
(https://fw-buffalowings-02.groups.io/g/main/message/5149) 15/11/2017
Note : The below explains why the text above in JD's answer 5a was crossed.
One turn of penalty flight following a turn stall, no need to reorient, unless cloud or night rules are in effect.
Reorientation is for "instrument" flight conditions. Night or in clouds basically. Daytime, once you end a game turn outsode of the clouds reorientation is automatic. Same with a turn stall.
JD
(https://fw-buffalowings-02.groups.io/g/main/message/5246) 14/12/2017
What is the initiative while in a turn stall?
Is it agility class 'U' or normal agility class?
Specific example is F class a/c has 1 remaining TS FP to take at the start of it's move (carried over from previous turn)
Still in Turn Stall, can't transition, so Uncontrolled
Wild Bill
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2169) 02/10/2012
A pilot entered a turn stall in the second FP of his move. When rolling the D5 for the duration of the stall does that FP counts toward the total?
My first impression is that it does not because the rules say that:
"(1) If caught in Movement Phase of the current game turn, back the A/C up to the point where the first illegal FP was actually expended. The illegal action is disallowed but retain the decel and any checks for GLOC or overstress from the illegal action. With remaining FPs, perform Turn Stall Procedure below."
As it says "With remaining FPs..." I would think that the FP that caused the stall does not count toward the total from the D5 roll. On the other hand, the playaids (that supersede the rulebook) only refer that:
"If caught in Movement Phase return A/C to point of first illegal action. Lose action but keep first decel & other effects caused by action, perform TS. "
It does not mention the "remaining FPs", so the FP that caused the stall should be considered for the total stall duration.
What says you?
You lose the first action the FP was trying to accomplish - but not that FP. The FP is spent but does nothing other than mark from where the turn stall FPs begin. Turn stall penalty FPs are those following the one that caused the turn stall.
So in your example, return your plane to the point it ended on the 2d FP. Turn stall FPs are the third and after.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2663) 05/10/2014
We have a situation where an aircraft's TS spans 3 turns
In the second turn it starts in a VD
Question.......does it use the Altitude Change Table for a normal vertical dive or a pure vertical dive?
Okay, third FP caused the TS, so doesn't count toward total time. Obviously you rolled to double speed 3.0.
Game turn 2, starts in TS and vertical dive. Rules say maximum VFPs must be taken. This will force pure vertical on turn 2.
On turn 3, as Matti suggests, since the TS does not encompass the entire game turn, you can let this be player's choice, whether vertical is pure or normal type. However if normal, all TS FPs must still be VFPs.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2713) 22/04/2015
A Yak-1B in SHC have 4 FPs, and does a HT that results in a turn stall on FP1.
The duration of the Turn stall was rolled to be 3 FP.
No transition was done.
So
A/C starts in SHC and stays in SHC.
HFP1 = Turn stall caused by HT turn. Maneuver forfeit, but decel kept and FP spent.
HFP2 = First HFP of Turn stall
HFP3 = Second HFP of Turn stall
HFP4 = Last HFP of Turn stall
A/C’s pitch shifted to LVL at the end of the move because of the Turn stall.
Questions are :
a) What about the OC ?
If the turn stall is complete (which seems to be, but please confirm), can the pilot choose the amount of the OC ?
Or should the OC be dictated by the Turn Stall rules ? But in that case, does this mean that the Turn stall is not complete ?
Should the OC amount it be calculated for a SHC or a LVL nose attitude ?
b) What about that A/C’s initiative next Game turn.
If the turn stall is complete, is the plane not part of the normal “F” group and not the “Uncontrolled” Initiative Group ?
If the turn stall is not complete, is the plane part of the “Uncontrolled” Initiative Group ?
The turn stall is complete. OC is governed by turn stall rules. Since nose attitude was SHC, no OC. Nose drops to level at end of turn. Next turn a/c treated as normal.
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3083) 08/11/2016
What is the right move (or maybe none is right, and in that case please tell us what is wrong :-) ) ?
Move with 1 VFP :
========================
P47#2 2416 NW/12.2/3.5+/IR/3dec-[ISHD]
EM(8)/ NG TT push->LVL *** Transition Turn Stall ***
Duration – 4FPs / Bank – Left / # of Banks – 3 / Drop Nose to STD at end of Move
ISHD 3H/1V [MC:-.2/V:-.3/OC:-.1]
V-SR-IR>RB>LV>LB, H, H, H (SR = Stall Roll / Snap Roll)
[8P+9dv+2da] – [3dc+5tr+(5+3)ts] = 19 - 16 = +3
2513/2614 NW/11.6/3.5/LB/+3-[STD]
========================
Move with 0 VFP :
========================
P47#2 2416 NW/12.2/3.5+/IR/3dec-[ISHD]
EM(8)/ NG TT push->LVL *** Transition Turn Stall ***
Duration – 4FPs / Bank – Left / # of Banks – 3 / Drop Nose to STD at end of Move
ISHD 4H/0V [MC:-.2/V:-.0/OC:-.1]
H-SR-IR>RB>LV>LB, H, H, H (SR = Stall Roll / Snap Roll)
[8P+4.5dv+2da] – [3dc+5tr+(5+3)ts] = 14.5 - 16 = -1.5
2613 NW/11.9/3.5/LB/-1.5-[STD]
========================
As per this post, we think OC is governed by the turn stall rule and uses the start pitch (SHD) :
https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3083
But we are in disagreement as if the P-47 should take 0 or 1 VFP.
1 VFP is correct.
"• If diving, do VFPs first until max VFP limit is met."
For ShD, Max VFP is "0, 1, or >1 to 1/4 of FPs"
At speed 3.5+, 1/4 FPs = 1.0 VFP
Correct for OC.
"At end of first game turn in which TS starts - lower nose one
pitch attitude toward earth (not past VD."
The "end" means AFTER all FPs and altitude changes (MC, VC, OC).
Wild Bill
BoB & CV GM
(https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FW_Referee_Central/conversations/messages/3181) 08/10/2017
In 3rd edition game play.
On Game turn 1, a plane starts a BTL and does not finish it, so he have a 1BTL turn carry.
On Game turn 2, he have not enough speed to be able to do a BT.
So on game turn 2 he turn stalls immediately, this is okay.
Question is : Does the 1st FP of game turn 2's move counts as a turn stall FP, or not ? The speed is 4.0, so does the A/C expends 4 turn stall FPs or 3 ?
Remember that if you perform a turn not allowed because of speed on an FP, this FP itself does not count as a turn stall FP, so if you need to do 6 turn stall FPs and you're at speed 4 and it is your first FP, you have only 3 expended turn stall FPs.
My opinion is that a carried turn, just like a transition, causes the turn stall to occur before the first FP is expended.
Rob R.
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3322) 19/08/2018
Rip is correct.
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3324) 20/08/2018
Original move
17b4 = P-39 #6, Ripcord, 2709, E, 1.3, 3.0, IRB, 0, ISHD
p=e(7), none, 3H
mc=-0.1, v=0, o=0
2H (TTR 2/2 to SE, RL 2/2 to RB) 2711
1H (HTR 1/1 to SSE) fall into 2612
(7p + 1.5dv + 1da)-(7tu)= 9.5 - 7 = +2.5
17b4 = P-39 #6, Ripcord, 2512, SSE, 1.2, 3.0, RB, +2.5, SHD
Turn Stall move
17b4 = P-39 #6, Ripcord, 2709, E, 1.3, 3.0, IRB, 0, ISHD
p=e(7), none, 3H
mc=-0.1, v=0, o=0
2H (TTR 2/2 to SE, RL 2/2 to RB) 2711 <<<< okay to here
1H (HTR 1/1 to SSE) fall into 2612 <<< illegal turn rate during HFP, Turn stall invoked (5 decel), lose HT facing, keep HT decel (4), HFP was still spent,
this does not convert to VFP. The "action" of the FP causing the turn stall is lost, not the FP itself. Ends in 2712/2612
Turn Stall duration = 5 FPs as rolled by Andrew.... not to exceed twice A/C speed. Thus, so far, 0 of 5 TS FPs flown.
Stall roll direction D10 = 8 = even = roll right.
Stall FPs credited at snap roll rate D10 = 4 (not to TS duration), and these are applied instantly (not flown). currently RB, 1H SRR to IR, 1H SRR to IV = 1H SRR to IV, 1H SRR to LB:
end bank is thus LB, end attitude is thus SHD and...
OC = -0.1 mandated by TS
Nose drops (no cost to STD as result of TS at end of turn of turn stall commencement.
(7p + 4dv + 1da) - 0tr -0c -3TT-4HT-5TS-4stall roll = 12 - 16 = -4 <<< fix
17b4 = P-39 #6, Ripcord, 2712/2612, SE, 1.1, 3.0, LB, -4.0, STD (TS0/5) <<<< fix
JD
(https://fw-game-03.groups.io/g/main/topic/p_39_6_turn_stall_back_up/61817875) 23/11/2019