I have the following initiative numbers :
Tempest #3 = 1 (Tails Dora #3)
Fw190D-9 #3 = 8
Fw190D-9 #4 = 0 (Formation with #3)
What is the order of movement ?
Is it :
a) Fw190D-9 #3 = 8
b) Fw190D-9 #4 = 0 (Formation with #3)
c) Tempest #3 = 1 (Tails Dora #3)
Because Tempest #3 beats Dora #4 initiative ?
Or is it :
a) Fw190D-9 #3 = 8
b) Tempest #3 = 1 (Tails Dora #3)
c) Fw190D-9 #4 = 0 (Formation with #3)
Because Tailer always play immediately after tailee ?
190D-3 init roll = 8 (rank A as the leader of the chain)
Tempest tails 190D-3 = init 8 after adopting 190D-3 init, but rank B.
190D-4 has choice of Zero, or adopting 190D-3 number, rank B.
If 190D-4 adopts leader, then both 190D-4 and Tempest are init 8, rank B, and need to break the tie with initiative rolls.
Tempest does not yet have an init roll, no initial roll as he was tailing. 190D-4 has a roll but used it and rejected it for the leader's roll. A new roll is required between the two (unmodified by pilot experience).
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/1667) 04/03/2012
We have been having a little discussion about initiative rolls, and the impact of moving out of sequence.
It is permitted to abandon your higher initiative number to pre-emptively move before you would normally.
You give away initiative position, but gain the ability to display your move early to the enemy and to your wingmen. This may be part of your higher strategy, bluff, feint, push the enemy, or it may be necessary to keep your formation together.
This is your choice as the player giving up a higher initiative. This is definitely intended as part of the game. What is more important at the moment. It's just another tool in play.
Most of the time it is not useful, or inconsequential to move early. But sometimes it is and this is allowed. Say you are a wingman, in formation, with a higher init than your leader, but you have a nasty on your tail.
You can certainly choose to move before your leader, to display your position to him, so that he can try to maneuver to help, although his maneuvering will still be before your tailer would move.
Again - its a part of the game and a viable option...
Caveat - Moving early does not force a tailing aircraft to move early.
cheers,
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2353) 30/08/2013
With playtest 3rd edition rules, I have a doubt with the following :
USMC rolls are
Corsair #1 --> 8
Corsair #2 --> 1
Corsair #3 --> 1
Corsair #4 --> 9
IJA rolls are
Oscar #1 --> None, tails Corsair #1
Oscar #2 --> 10
Oscar #3 --> None, tails Corsair #4
Oscar #4 --> 10
Can Corsair #4 elect to move with his leader's initiative ?
The goal for Corsair #4 is to "drag" Oscar #3 to a low initiative rank with him, but is it allwaed to take his lead's initiative number when it is lower ???
the 8.5.2 rule says :
Initiative Benefits: Wingmen in flexible formation may use the higher of their own or their flight or element leader's initiative number. Once per game turn, per side, a radio-transmitter equipped leader may confer his initiative number, if higher, to one radio receiver equipped next lower ranked flight leader within his unit (group, squadron, flight, etc.) and within the 9-9-9 formation parameters. Wingmen of a leader receiving an initiative number by radio may choose to assume it as well.
The rule you quoted above answers your question.
Only a HIGHER initiative result can be assumed by a wingman.
Oscar #3 inherits Corsair #4's initiative of 9 (equivalent to 9.1, since the Oscar moves after the Corsair).
Even if Corsair #4 moves early (with Corsairs #2 and #3), this does NOT obligate Oscar #3 to also move immediately after Corsair #4. Oscar #3 may wait until it is time for those aircraft with Initiative 9 to move, which is after the Initiative 8 a/c (Corsair #1).
Does this help ??
Wild Bill
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2972) 26/02/2016
Wild Bill has it correct. You cannot assume a worse initiative, but you can always choose to move early, however, moving early doesn't obligate a tailee to move any earlier than the tailed aircraft's original initiative.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2974) 26/02/2016
We have 3 planes, Spit 2, Emil 1 and Emil 2 (well there are more, but only these 3 matter to this case).
Initiative rolls were made, and were :
Spit 2 --> 8.9 from tailing Emil 3 who moves before everyone here
Emil 1 --> 7.3
Emil 2 --> 8.6
Emil 1 is in Spit 2's blind area, and no other Spit can see him, so Emil 1 is an Unsighted A/C (8.1.2). So by 8.1.2 he should move last.
Emil 2 is not in Spit 2's blind arc, but is in formation with Emil 1.
Emil 2 is in formation with Emil 1, so he can use his lead's initiative / rank.
a) So he can move at 7.3 (his lead's initiative), or rather keep his own 8.6 which is better and move before Spit 2 ? But then he would not move after Emil 1 which is weird as he is in formation with him.
b) Or does he moves after Emil 1, but then he moves as if Unsighted when he is not ?
So, when does Emil 2 moves ?
You are wrapped up in the value of the init rolls. Forget them. Stick to basics.
By the rules
Emil 1 moves last by virtue of being unseen." In blind arc" becomes his new init no.
Emil 2 is formation with unseen and moves after his leader. or "in blind arc b".
In short, they should move in the order that would apply if all AC were visible and emil 1 had rolled the highest init roll to go last.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3271) 16/07/2018
B)
Emil 1 did NOT need to roll for Init because it is the only a/c in the Unsighted category and always moves after Spit 2.
This is similar to where the leader is tailing and the remainder of his element is in formation. They adopt the leader's Init and move AFTER the leader.
Effectively, this is
Spit 2 8.9
Emil 1 8.9+
Emil 2 8.6 -> 8.9+ (In formation)
Wild Bill
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3274) 17/07/2018
If I were to follow the rigid interpretation of the rules for roll offs (i.e., roll offs occur during the movement phase right before the impacted AC's moves), exactly when does a pilot select whether he'll follow his leads' in formation? Is this decision made during the initiative phase, or right before roll offs are done. Or for that matter, before the AC moves?
It can't happen after roll offs obviously, because that would be gaming the system. I would prefer the decision be made in the initiative phase as it makes it a lot simpler for me. What's the official stance on that?
The decision for wingmen to use a leader's initiative or not, is done after the initiative rolls are made during the (aptly named) Initiative phase. For each formation rank's order of moves (for wingmen or tailee's) adopting another A/C init number, you compare their original init rolls (even when tailing, A/C should roll init rolls in the init phase). Only if tied, is a tie breaker roll required.
For A/C not in formation, or tailing, but which have the same init number as the formation leader or tailed A/C being moved, a regular tie breaker roll is required and only between the it and the moving A/C and not the A/C moving in rank behind it.
Example:
British 1 has a wingman in formation, British 2
German 1 is tailing British 1
German 2 is not tailing anyone.
British 1 and German 2 roll the same init and are tied.
German 1 has to adopt Brit 1's number through tailing whether his own roll was better or worse.
British 2's roll was worse than Brit 1 so he adopts Brit 1's number. His roll is also worse than German 1.
Before anyone moves, Brit 1 and German 2 must break their tie and the loser moves first.
British 2 and German 1 are in the same (rank) moving after British 1, and in the order British 2 then German 1 based on their first init rolls (if the tailer German 1did not roll in the init phase, he should do so after Brit 1 moves and use this roll compared to Brit 2's to determine order of moves).
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3391) 11/12/2018
Thanks for the explanations.
I was under the belief from previous answers (https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/1667) that tailing A/Cs did not roll initiative, and rolled ties if they were tied with other tailing or in formation A/Cs.
So I’ll use this from now on.
The net result is not much different.
But, procedure has been changed for third edition. Everyone rolls in the init phase, and tailing affects how the number is used.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3402) 14/12/2018
Look forward to the changes,
While formation choices are usually obvious, once in a while you hit something like this
side A:
#1 (lead) rolled 2
#3 (wing) IF rolled 1
side B:
#1 (lead) rolled 10 BUT is tailing #3
#2 (wing) IF with #1 rolled 2
These planes are close and maneuvering for shots in a couple of turns
If Wingman A makes formation choice first, who is tailed by Lead B, and announces his choice to use init throwing Lead B to move before Lead A, Wingman B gets to decide not to follow and could move last after tie breaking.
If Wing B makes formation choice first, and announces he will follow Lead , Wing B could then decide to throw both A(s) in front of Lead B
This is a not blind choice, one side gets to see what the other is doing. It is almost as if one blackjack player gets to see the opponents down card. If it is not supposed to be a blind choice, it doesn’t seem realistic. By blind choice I mean both decisions made without knowing the other’s decision.
It also seems a biased decision for the ref to make. We are trying this:
Roll inits. Formation choices are put on the radio. Then the OOM is finalized. In the case someone does not respond his lead decides.
By the way this is a great example of teamwork on both sides
wingmen dclare in order of own initiative.
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/3404) 15/12/2018