I split up a banking change to do a skid. Is this 1) legal, and 2) ethical?
Negative - Rolling cannot be split up by another maneuver.
You can transition and skid and get a TIF if you stay banked. That is okay. You cannot interrupt a roll. It must be finished, or extended and carried once started, but since roll FPs cannot be used for other maneuvers like slips or skids, you cannot do this.
Legal = No.
Ethical? = If you're not cheating, you're not trying!
:-)
JD
(https://fighting-wings-games.groups.io/g/main/message/12712) 20/02/2011
Do you actually have to "unroll" to cancel the roll or just "not start another roll" until you've spent enough FPs to cancel the abandoned roll?
In this case, there is a carried roll towards level which the pilot wants to drop and simultaneously start a slip.
1 - If you have to actually undo a roll, you cannot spend the same FP for the slip requirement. (As per the Rule 5.4 - Paragraph "Slips & Skid Limits")
2 - If you only need to wait for a while before starting a new roll, then you can unwind and slip at the same time.
Case 2 is actually correct. The FW WD rules specifically did not use the term "un-rolling", so as to allow players to do something else other than rolling until the previous partial roll "penalty" time has passed including slips and skids.
Design intent - Players are allowed to abandon a roll, in order to do something else, including a slip or skid.
I acknowledge, that, as written, one can infer that rolling is in progress to "undo" the partial bank, and from that, one might infer slips and skids would be prohibited during the undo. But, that wasn't my intent.
The only restriction on the undo time, is that players cannot start a roll in the opposite direction, or restart a roll in the former direction until the "penalty" time (for being indecisive) is finished after abandoning the original partial bank.
This rule was written to stop players from "hedging" bank angles, by carrying nearly complete partial rolls one way, then abandoning them and immediately rolling in the opposite direction - as was observed over several playtest sessions. When written, I didn't even think about any possible connection to the skid and slipping while rolling prohibition.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/1487) 01/10/2011
I'm LB with a 1RR carry. Can I abandon the 1RR carry, and with the same FP used for unrolling can I start to turn left ?
I don't remember if my original response to the post you cited was in reply to a 2d edition WD rules question, or a third edition playtest rules question.
If the former...I'm sure that I felt the rule needed to be clearer in third edition and made the change afterward.
If it was the latter, a third ed. question, then I had a change of heart since that discussion and made the change for third edition.
So to answer your question.
The third edition rules text is not in error.
The post you cited probably applies to WD rules, but is changed for third edition. So it is obsolete.
My current thinking is, if your bank is level, it takes a certain amount of time to reach a valid turning bank angle.
If you were banked at the valid turning bank angle, and then start rolling toward level, you are not allowed to turn because you are rolling back beyond that valid turning bank angle.
So to resume turning, you need re-reach the valid turning angle.
This is in fact in contradiction to my original response, but I think is a more rationale and playable way to do the rule and discourages players from gaming the system by rolling part way toward level while reserving the right to suddenly resume turning by abandoning the rule.
JD
Note : The old post alluded to in this post is here https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/1238 from 07/10/2010
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2068) 01/09/2012
The latter portion is now a current issue. Any confirmation on this one way or the other?
My current ruling is that you can start a slip while abandoning a roll, even though you cannot roll while slipping, but I would like to have a second/third/nth opinion.
I don't interpret things as strictly as WB does.
The 109 abandoned the roll. Rolling in the original direction is stopped and over.
The only restriction really, is that you cannot begin to roll in the opposite direction of the abandoned roll until time in FPs equal to the time spent initiating the roll has passed while doing something else (the undo part).
You cannot mix slipping and rolling with the same FPs...true...
The 109 immediately initiates a slip - this is legal. This is an activity other than a roll in the opposite direction. The player is not mixing rolls and a different activity because the undo part is a time restriction not an actual "unwind-roll-back" to a start point maneuver. Once you abandon a roll - it starts undoing itself in time, while you are doing other things including slips and skids.
Thus per my perspective - Matti, handled the move correctly. The abandoned roll has been lost...not carried....to start rolling again in either direction requires the player to start a new roll maneuver. He could do anything other than roll the other way, prior to the time count down being complete.
cheers
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2370) 07/10/2013
Third edition rules try to be more precise on the language regarding undoing rolls. Note that nowhere does it say that a slip or skid cannot be part of an undo action....
Rule 5.1 (third ed.) -
Abandoning Rolls: A/C may abandon a roll at any point before it is completed. Partial rolling that was carried forward or in effect when a roll is abandoned must be undone before an opposite direction roll can commence. Partial rolling is considered undone when FPs = to the partial roll amount have been spent doing some action other than rolling, or spent in rolling back to the start bank position. If partial rolling was toward LV or IV banks, this must be undone before turning can be resumed.
Rule 5.4 (third ed.)
Slip & Skid Limits: FPs expended to do a slip or skid may not be counted toward turning or rolling. Slips and skids are not allowed if a Negative-G transition (Chap. 6) is performed.
--------
Note that unrolling is considered undone in two ways, 1. Actually rolling back to undo it, or 2. Doing something other than a roll.
Slips and skids are other than rolling.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2371) 07/10/2013
My plane wants to use 7 FPs to do a roll (4 needed). Can roll be extended ?
Here is the third ed. text:
Roll Carry: Rolling can be accomplished over several game turns if required. If so, note any roll FP expenditure being carried in the Turn Carry line of the A/C log sheet. Roll FP carry must marry up with continued rolling or the roll is considered abandoned. Once started, a roll must be completed or abandoned.
>> The key phrase is the final sentence... Once started, a roll must be COMPLETED or ABANDONED.
Using a strict rules interpretation, unlike horizontal turns. A roll cannot be extended. The Banking FP number is not a minimum number, it is THE number. You have to decide whether to accept the new bank angle, or start undoing it on the FP that would change your bank angle.
If Reg's intent was to carry enough roll FP to be one FP from completing a bank, then the previous turn's move should have only had a 3RR carry max in the end line.
The 7 RR would have to have been played as follows
3FPs = 3 RR carry
1FP = abandon RR
3FPs = new RR for new 3 RR carry
By the rules, when you abandon a roll, you must undo the RR carry before you can roll left. You can resume rolling right after the decision point, but the abandoned roll is lost in its entirety. So you have to start rolling anew from your last bank angle. This is a punitive rule, not a reality rule, designed to discourage goofy gamer behavior.
Hope this helps. Patrice, can you transfer this exchange to the ref central site. Thanks.
JD
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Darwin-Campaign/message/2273) 29/12/2014
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Ref-Central/message/2687) 30/12/2014
2530 SSE, 18.1, 7.5+, LV, +0, VD, 1RL (sv.dam.)
Can a vertical roll right be started immediately ?
Roll carry in one direction must be nullified before starting to roll in the other direction.
(https://groups.io/g/FW-Darwin-Campaign/message/3515) 23/08/2015