Embedded Files
When Did Jesus Ever BEG for Anything?
***What Does 2 Corinthians 8:9 TRULY mean?
Here is 2 Corinthians 8:9 from the KJV. “For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.”
Does 2 Corinthians 8:9 PROVE that God the Son became POOR by leaving heaven and coming down to earth to become flesh?
Or does 2 Corinthians 8:9 simply mean that the HUMAN Son of God gave up his OWN WILL to do all of the WILL of his God and Father so that we can be SAVED?
The only time that I see that Jesus BEGGED for anything was in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Jesus pleaded with his God that if there was any other way, then allow this cup of suffering SHAME on the cross pass from me.
But then, Jesus gave up his right to call legions of angels to deliver him so that he could OBEY his God and Father to ENDURE the cross to be made SIN for us.
To read the CONTEXT, please click the BLUE links.
To read the STUDY and the context, please scroll down.
Download this Verse Study to read OFFLINE!
Jesus Gave up FAME to Suffer SHAME on the Cross!
Let us begin this study in God’s word by reading 2 Corinthians 8:9 to refresh our memory.
Corinthians 8:9.
“For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was RICH, yet for your sakes he became POOR, that you through his poverty might be rich.”
Now, some Trinitarians Christians use this verse of Scripture to TRY to prove that Jesus literally pre-existed in the eternity past at God’s side.
For you see, to them, Jesus was never RICH on the earth.
And, therefore, they conclude that the only time that Jesus could have been RICH was up in heaven as God the Son, the second person of the Godhead Trinity God.
They argue that since God created everything, then that means God OWNS everything.
Thus, they reason that since Jesus is God and God owns everything, then that is what the phrase “he was RICH” means to THEM.
Here is part of a sermon I heard many years ago that teaches the literal pre-existence of Jesus' argument.
In other words, all Trintarian Christians teach that Jesus pre-existed without a beginning as God the SON, and their argument goes something like this:
Paul says by the Spirit of God that through Jesus Christ was RICH, he gave it all up for our sake and became POOR.
Then they dogmatically demand that this verse proves, without fail, that Jesus pre-existed as God the SON without beginning and without end. They say something like,
“Now if this verse of Scripture does not prove that Jesus pre-existed in grandeur and splendor with the glory of the Father BEFORE his being born of the virgin Mary, then WHEN was Jesus EVER RICH?”
Then they drive their point home by saying something like,
“Certainly, Jesus was NOT rich while he was on the earth!
He was born in a borrowed stable, crossed the Sea of Galilee in a borrowed boat, fed the multitudes with borrowed food, rode into Jerusalem on a borrowed beast, ate His last meal in a borrowed room and finally was buried in a borrowed tomb.”
Then they may quote another verse of Scripture like Jesus having nowhere to lay his head and he had to use a rock for a pillow to try and prove that Jesus was never rich.
Please read Luke 9:58.
“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heavens have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.”
Now, to me, this verse actually proves that Jesus BECAME poor by LEAVING his home to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom.
For you see, Jesus is saying that the foxes have HOMES and the birds have HOMES but the Son of man does not even have a pillow to lay his head upon.
Jesus left his home to do what his God and Father was leading him to do.
Even at the young age of 12 years old the child Jesus perceived God calling him to teach the word of the Father.
Please read Luke 2:40-52.
“And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. (Notice that the grace of God was upon Jesus as a child and did not yet DWELL in Jesus until his baptism)
Luke 2:41. Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. (Only the MEN were REQUIRED to attend the yearly feasts.
The women and the children were not required to travel to Jerusalem to keep the yearly feasts.
But yet, Joseph took his whole family, which tells me that the parents of Jesus were NOT poor)
Luke 2:42. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Luke 2:43. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luke 2:44. But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day’s journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances.
Luke 2:45. And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
Luke 2:46. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, (After three days of being separated from his heavenly Father Jesus was resurrected and found in his temple, his new glorified body.
Also, the human race only has THREE days to SEEK and find Jesus before it is too late.
The first TWO 1000 year long days are almost finished. Are you seeking Jesus as if he was your lost child?) sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luke 2:47. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luke 2:48. And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why have thou thus dealt with us? Behold, your father and I have sought you sorrowing.
Luke 2:49. And he said unto them, How is it that you sought me? Do you not know that I must be about my Father's business?
Luke 2:50. And they understood not the saying which he spoke unto them.
Luke 2:51. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Luke 2:52. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor WITH God and man.”
So then, does 2 Corinthians 8:9 prove that Jesus pre-existed in eternity past at God’s side as Trinitarian Christians CLAIM?
Does Jesus pre-existing up in heaven prove to be the ONLY possible way that Jesus was RICH?
Now, I agree that in just hearing ONE SIDE of this highly controversial subject, this verse does SEEM to be saying that Jesus gave up the riches of heaven to become a poor human being.
But is this truly what this verse teaches us in the light of the whole word of God?
So then, the question becomes what does RICH truly mean?
And what does the Bible itself mean by being POOR?
And was Jesus ever rich while he was ON the earth BEFORE he began his ministry?
Also, what being rich and poor is relative to each individual person.
In other words, a person can consider himself rich and not have any “financial” wealth whatsoever.
First, let us read 2 Corinthians 8:9 again to refresh your memory as to ALL this verse is saying.
2 Corinthians 8:9.
“For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.”
This very verse gives us our first clue as to what the Bible itself means by Jesus becoming POOR.
Please notice that Jesus became poor FOR OUR SAKES.
According to this verse, the “POVERTY” of Jesus is what causes us to be RICH.
So then, Jesus being “POOR” is definitely NOT speaking of being poor “FINANCIALLY”.
For you see, being poor financially can not help others become RICH.
And even being rich financially will not help others become rich unless those riches are GIVEN to others.
So, the TRUE sound Biblical meaning of Jesus making us RICH is Jesus GIVING us the TRUTH of God’s Holy Word so that we become rich in God.
The only WAY to the Father is through FAITH in Jesus laying down his OWN LIFE so that we can be SAVED!
Simply ask yourself the question, “How does Jesus being POOR benefit ud to make us RICH?”
Are we made rich FINANCIALLY here in this present world, or are we made rich in the knowledge of God knowing that we are JOINT-HEIRS with Jesus?
When I asked myself this question, I saw that IF I was rich financially and I gave all my financial wealth away I would NOT be able to make anyone rich “financially”.
So, I saw right away that being RICH, according to the Bible itself, does NOT mean being financially rich.
So, to me, this verse of Scripture has NOTHING to do with Jesus becoming FINANCIALLY poor, even though I truly believe that Mary and Joseph were NOT poor.
But rather, this verse has EVERYTHING to do with Jesus being poor in SPIRIT having a CONTRITE heart that is HUMBLE and MEEK that esteems others better than himself.
In other words, Jesus left behind the security of his home and family to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus made himself poor by choosing to leave home WITHOUT having another HOME to go to.
Jesus made himself poor in SPIRIT by HUMBLING himself to put his TRUST in God during his MINISTRY to preach the gospel to the POOR.
But not necessarily to the financially poor. Rather to those who were poor in “SPIRIT”.
Now, before we get deeper into this study in God’s as to what the Bible teaches us about being poor in SPIRIT truly means, I would like to bring a few points to your attention about those who argue that Jesus, Mary, and Joseph were “DIRT” POOR so to speak.
Some argue that Mary and Joseph were so poor that they were “poverty” level people barely making a living.
POINT #1.
First of all, ANY verse or argument used AFTER Jesus began his ministry can NOT be counted as a TRUE argument to try and prove that Jesus was ALREADY POOR.
And, therefore, Jesus must have given up his glory up in heaven in order to become poor.
For you see, if so be that Jesus was indeed RICH on earth BEFORE he began his ministry, then it is proven that Jesus did indeed give up all the comforts of earthly riches to BECOME POOR for the sake of the gospel.
So then, all the so-called BORROWED boat to crossed the Sea of Galilee, the borrowed fish and bread to feed the multitudes, the borrowed donkey to ride into Jerusalem, the borrowed room to eat last supper, and no place to lay his head were ALL by his own CHOICE that Jesus himself made to BECOME poor FOR the sake of the gospel.
And, therefore, all those arguments prove NOTHING in the way that Jesus was ALWAYS POOR from birth and that his parents were poor.
In other words, the only arguments left for those that dogmatically demand that Jesus Mary and Joseph were “DIRT POOR”, so to speak, is the so-called “BORROWED” stable and the “borrowed” tomb, which again, are only ASSUMED or INTERPRETED to be “borrowed”.
POINT #2.
Please consider the HISTORICAL FACTS written in Jewish literature as well as the BIBLICAL lineage of both Mary and Joseph in the line of King David.
Here is a quote from one Jewish source.
There is not one woman in the history of the world more known, loved, revered, respected and honored than Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Known in her native land as PRINCESS MIRIAM, she is today revered by two great religions; Christianity and Islam.
In her native Jewish land, the life and ministry of her Son is the most studied of all historical and religious literature by the Jewish rabbanim of the first century Jewish temple culture.
In spite of some defensive aspersions of some Jews concerning her Son, Yehoshua (Jesus), Miriam is held in respect as the ideal mother, who stands by her family even in the most intense moments of social rejection and sorrow.
The family of Joseph, the foster father of Jesus, came from a family of royal Davidian princes, all of whom carried the hidden dream of being the Promised One, or the father of the Promised One who would sit on the seat of their ancestral forefather, King David. In contrast, Mary’s family lived in the aura of the majesty and beauty of the temple culture of the Jews in Jerusalem.
Joseph’s father flirted with the royalty from Egypt, to Rome, and to Babylon, from Davidian, Maccabean to Herodian, yet he knew that to capture the “hidden” love and devotion of the Jewish population, any ruler had to carry the mantle and the genetic birthright of King David.
Miriam (or MARY the mother of Jesus) was a Davidian princess, originally from the non-royal bloodlines of the House of Nathan, the eldest son of Queen Bathsheba, the love of King David’s life.
Yet, four hundred years later, the rare fusion of bloodlines occurred when Princess Tamar, the daughter of the Crown Prince Yohanan, was killed in battle with his beloved father, King Josiah, when they sought to hinder the imperial seeking forces of Pharaoh Necho III Wehemibre who was heading north to defend Assyria against the rising imperial power of Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon.
Tamar, a princess of the House of Solomon was betrothed as a child to Prince Neriah, a prince of the non-royal line of the House of Nathan.
He was the 21st in descent from King David. This was a marriage made in heaven, for unbeknown to the Jewish royalty that was crawling with royal Davidian princes, they could never imagine that all would be killed, exiled, executed, assassinated, or died premature deaths until the entire royal bloodline of King Solomon was threatened with extinction.
With the LEGAL royal bloodlines of the House of Solomon, now imbedded with the non-royal bloodlines of the House of Nathan, these young princes were recognized as non-royal heirs and thereby not a threat to the Babylonian throne of King Nebuchadnezzar.
The God of Israel had a protecting hand over David’s royal bloodline.
So then, the Jewish history AGREES with the Bible that Mary and Joseph were very well off FINANCIALLY.
Joseph was fully prepared to PAY top dollar for ANY room and ANY inn, but they were all already rented out.
Now, the Bible does not specifically say that Joseph PAID to stay in the stable, but what owner of an inn would lend for free that stable, when Joseph had the money to pay for a room in the INN if there were any rooms left to rent.
So, to me, a so-called “borrowed” stable must be READ INTO the Scriptures.
POINT #3.
Mary and Joseph did, indeed, have money to PAY for the room at the Inn.
BUT there were NO more ROOMS to be rented, so the innkeeper offered them a stable.
So then, it was NOT because Mary and Joseph were POOR that Jesus was born in a stable, but rather, there was NO other place AVAILABLE in the inn to rent.
Now, to me, the innkeeper rented the stable to Mary and Joseph.
And thus, it was NOT “borrowed” as some claim.
Please read Luke 2:1-7.
“And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be TAXED.
Luke 2:2. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
Luke 2:3. And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
Luke 2:4. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (BECAUSE he was of the house and lineage of David:)
Luke 2:5. To be TAXED with Mary, his espoused wife, being great with child.
Luke 2:6. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
Luke 2:7. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes (This term “swaddling clothes” speaks of TIGHTLY wrapping a baby as mothers do today in swaddling blankets.
These word “swaddling clothes” have NOTHING to do with wrapping Jesus is so-called “RAGS”, because they were SUPPOSEDLY so dirt poor that all they had were rags to keep their new born baby warm as many of us have been INCORRECTLY taught) and laid him in a manger; BECAUSE there was NO ROOM for them in the inn.”
And NOT because they were so dirt poor that they could not afford a room in the Inn.
Now again, the Bible itself does not specifically say one way or the other as whether or not they PAID to stay in the stable.
But when we consider this major world wide event of a census taking or the collecting of TAXES where everyone had to TRAVEL to their hometown, then this would be the busiest and most PROFITABLE time ever for any BUSINESS men, such as the INNkeeper.
So to me, the Inn keeper undoubtedly CHARGED Mary and Joseph to stay in the stable.
What shrewd Jewish business man would GIVE any lodging away for FREE, when so many other people were willing to pay to sleep in a stable?
Keep in mind that this historical event would be likened to the world fair or the Olympics where people come from all over to one place and every hotel is sold out.
So, ANY available space becomes PRIME property to demand a high price.
Just my opinion, but so also is the ASSUMPTION that Mary and Joseph were dirt POOR and could only afford to sleep in a stable is the OPINION of church TRADITION.
The Scripture says BECAUSE there was NO ROOM in the Inn, and not because they were so dirt poor that they could not afford a room in the Inn.
POINT # 4.
The wise men brought EXTREMELY VALUABLE GIFTS fit for a KING to the child Jesus.
So, what happened to all this extreme WEALTH that was given to the baby Jesus?
Did Mary and Joseph spend it all? NO! Of course not!
And thus, the child Jesus and his parents were quite WEALTHY!
Please read Matthew 2:1-12.
“Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Matthew 2:2. Saying, Where is he that is born KING of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Matthew 2:3. When Herod the king had heard these things, he was TROUBLED, and all Jerusalem WITH him. (Herod was worried that another King would take his throne)
Matthew 2:4. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Matthew 2:5. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Matthew 2:6. And you Bethlehem, in the land of Judea, are not the least among the princes of Judea: for out of you shall come a Governor, that shall RULE my people Israel.
Matthew 2:7. Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
Matthew 2:8. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; (Jesus was most likely approaching the age of two around this time because the Bible teaches us that Herod had all the male children two years old and younger killed fearing his own throne) and when you have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
Matthew 2:9. When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo , the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was
Matthew 2:10. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Matthew 2:11. And when they were come into the HOUSE, (By the time the wise men found Jesus he was a young child living in a HOUSE with his parents.
So, we know that the parents of Jesus had enough money to live in a house) they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their TREASURES, they presented unto him GIFTS; GOLD, and FRANKINCENSE, and MYRRH. (These were gifts fit for a King that they came to worship or bow down to be under his kingship.
They were not worshiping Jesus as being Almighty God.
Please understand that I worship and praise Jesus even as I worship and praise Almighty God the Father.
Please read the study called D-7. SHOULD WE WORSHIP JESUS?)
Matthew 2:12. And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.”
So then, it has been almost two years now and Mary, Joseph, and the young toddler Jesus are living in a HOUSE.
Again, living in a HOUSE does not prove without a doubt that Mary and Joseph are financially RICH, but at the same time, it does NOT prove that they are “dirt poor” either.
The main point that I want you to notice is that these wise men from the east brought GIFTS that were befitting TREASURES given to a KING.
So, the question becomes “What happened to all this extreme WEALTH?”
Some may argue that I am blowing things out of proportion, but considering the ROYAL lineage of BOTH Mary and Joseph along with these TREASURES of the wise men given to the KING of the Jews opened my eyes to see that Jesus, Mary, and Joseph were quite “financially” wealthy.
POINT #5.
Joseph took his family to Egypt to stay until the threat of their son being killed had passed.
So, the question now becomes “HOW did they AFFORD to travel to Egypt for this extended stay IF SO BE they were so wretchedly poor?”
Jewish history teaches us the following.
In the days surrounding the birth of Jesus, it was not safe to be recognized or be known as a descendant of the House of David.
The Davidian princes were hunted by the Romans, and were despised by the jealous Jewish temple leadership, who were Zadokian cousins presiding as high priests.
The ruler of Judea was Herod the Great who at his best, sought to manipulate, or at the least destroy every Zadokian priest that allied himself to Davidian princes.
King Herod also targeted every Prince of Israel, who was of the ROYAL House of David, and heirs to the throne of David.
Please continue to read the rest of Matthew chapter 2.
Matthew 2:13-23.
“And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be you there until I bring you word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Matthew 2:14. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Matthew 2:15. And was there UNTIL the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:16. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. (This verse teaches us that Jesus was most likely around two years old by the time the wise men came to worship the prophesied coming king.
Now, as to how long Herod lived after he had all the children two years old and under murdered is not so easy to calculate.
I estimate that Herod died around three months later. But even if it was three weeks later that is still an expensive trip for Jesus to take his family on to escape the wrath of Herod)
Matthew 2:17. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Matthew 2:18. In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Matthew 2:19. But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Matthew 2:20. Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
Matthew 2:21. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
Matthew 2:22. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
Matthew 2:23. And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.”
My Point is this, what poor family can just pick up and leave at the drop of a hat, so to speak, and stay in a distant land until God told them it was safe to return?
Perhaps they used the gifts that the wise men gave the young child Jesus to pay for their travel and long stay in Egypt.
Or perhaps Mary and Joseph were indeed RICH considering their ROYAL lineage and inherited family WEALTH and they used their own money to fund their refuge in Egypt.
Perhaps Joseph made a good living being a carpenter.
POINT #6.
The TOMB was given to Jesus by his great UNCLE. And, according to Jewish law or custom, it was the families responsibility to bury their dead family members.
Also, history as well as the Bible, teaches us that Joseph of Arimathea ADOPTED Jesus as his son after Joseph died.
In other words, the so-called “BORROWED” tomb argument is no argument at all because the tomb actually belonged to the FAMILY of Jesus.
And, therefore, this proves that the FAMILY of Jesus was QUITE WEALTHY after all.
Again, please consider the historical facts from Jewish literature concerning Joseph of Arimathea who ADOPTED Jesus as his own SON.
Here we are reaching into the New Testament history. Here we meet, the “RICH Man of Jerusalem”, the youngest GREAT UNCLE of Jesus, who was a member of the Roman Provincial Council headed by the Roman Procurator Pontius Pilate.
He was also a member of the Great Sanhedrin as the Jewish Elder, who represented the hereditarial “Seat of King David” on the council, and a Roman Decurion, a miner of strategic metals for the Roman Empire in the tin, antimony, and lead mines along the Cornwall coast of southwestern Great Britain.
Though quickly appearing in the Gospel testimony as the family representative that went to the Procurator Pilate to claim the body of Yehoshua (Jesus), his power and authority all throughout the land of Judea protected the family of Jesus, and the Jewish followers of the Hebrew Nazarene Ecclesia, his last mission was back in Wales and Britain, where he became the “Apostle to the British” and the founder of the British Culdee Ecclesia.
Yet, what this RICH man of Jerusalem has been really known best in history was for giving to his nephew the new stone carved “FAMILY” tomb in which to lay the lifeless body of Yehoshua, thereby incurring the wrath of the temple leadership and many members of the Sanhedrin who wanted to dispose of the body like a common criminal, by either burying it in the “potter’s field” or throwing it in the trash heaps outside the gates of the city.
From the historical testimony of the New Testament Gospels, this “rich man of Jerusalem” had only an altruistic interest in helping the family of the young Jewish rabbi, Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus the son of Joseph).
YET, the genealogical testimony depicts a LARGER and MORE dynamic involvement of the ancestors and FAMILY of Jesus.
Joseph was NOT a bystander, who offered to help the family of a man, he believed to be the messiah.
Joseph was the PATERNAL UNCLE Yehoshua, who had the LEGAL and MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to take the body of any deceased FAMILY MEMBER and give it a proper burial.
Again, Joseph of Arimathea being the great uncle became the legal guardian of Jesus.
So, the wealth of his uncle was the wealth of the family, which made Jesus to be wealthy as well.
But Jesus LEFT the comfort of home and financial wealth behind for the sake of the Gospel to make us rich in God.
Please read Luke 3:23.
“And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,”
The phrase “as was supposed” carries the meaning of according to custom, or to do by law.
Some Bible scholars say that this means that Joseph of Arimathea adopted Jesus.
Plain and simple, the FAMILY of Jesus was EXTREMELY WEALTHY.
So, the TRUTH of the matter is, the HUMAN Son of God did, indeed, GIVE UP EARTHLY RICHES to become POOR for our sakes as the Bible clearly and plainly teaches us along with Jewish historical facts.
But even though Jesus was financially rich and he left that life behind, I still believe that the WEALTH that Jesus GAVE away and did not keep to himself was the RICHES in God’s WORD or TRUTH.
Now, some may still not agree that Jesus was “financially” rich.
And thus, they argue that Mary and Joseph were POOR because they only brought a pair of young pigeons to offer to God.
But what does the Bible ACTUALLY say?
Please read Luke 2:22-24.
“And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Luke 2:23. (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
Luke 2:24. And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”
Please notice that the Bible does NOT ACTUALLY tell us WHAT Mary and Joseph offered.
In other words, it is only ASSUMED that Mary and Joseph offered EITHER two turtledoves or two young pigeons because this is the ONLY PART of the Old Testament law that Luke quoted.
There are many times where a writer of the New Testament quotes ONLY PART of a verse or passage of Scripture, but the INTENT is clear that the writer in truth really wanted to convey to the reader the WHOLE passage of Scripture.
So, let us read Leviticus 12:7,8 where we understand MORE of what the law actually says, but please keep in mind that this writer is NOT QUOTING the WHOLE passage of Scripture EITHER.
It is up to YOU the reader to look up and read the ENTIRE passage of Scripture if you desire to know ALL that is says.
Leviticus 12:6-8.
“And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the FIRST YEAR for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:
Leviticus 12:7. Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that has born a male or a female.
Leviticus 12:8. And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles (doves), or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”
Those who teach that Mary and Joseph are POOR dogmatically demand that, without fail, that the phrase “And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb,” means that Mary and Joseph were POOR, because they ONLY offered two turtledoves or two pigeons and they did NOT offer a LAMB.
Again, the New Testament simply states ONLY PART of the Old Testament law and ALSO does NOT ACTUALLY say WHAT Mary and Joseph offered.
But let us ASSUME that Mary and Joseph did indeed offer ONLY two turtledoves or two young pigeons as many Christians conclude that is what Luke is telling us SIMPLY because he ONLY quotes PART of the Old Testament law.
This still does NOT prove, without fail, that Mary and Joseph were so dirt poor that they could not afford to offer a LAMB to God.
You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, the phrase in Leviticus 12:7,8, “And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb”, LITERALLY reads as follows.
“and if not she find that hand of her sufficient of flocking”
In other words, God requires a young lamb of the FIRST YEAR.
So, therefore, if she does not find a “sufficient” lamb of the FIRST YEAR among her flock, THEN she shall offer TWO turtledoves INSTEAD of just ONE turtledove with a lamb.
Or she shall offer TWO young pigeons INSTEAD of just ONE young pigeon with a lamb.
That is to say, this phrase “And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb,” has NOTHING whatsoever to Mary and Joseph being POOR.
For you see, even the wealthiest people have no control over the lambs of their flock being born SPOTLESS.
Also, we see the QUALIFICATION for being POOR is shown to us in Leviticus chapter 14, verse 10 and verses 21 and 22.
Leviticus 14:10,21,22.
“Leviticus 14:10. And on the eighth day he shall take TWO he lambs without blemish, AND ONE ewe lamb of the FIRST year without blemish, AND three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil....
Leviticus 14:21. And IF HE BE POOR, and cannot get so much; then he shall take ONE lamb for a trespass offering to be waved, to make an atonement for him, and one tenth deal of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering, and a log of oil;
Leviticus 14:22. AND two turtle doves, OR two young pigeons, such as he is able to get; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering.”
So then, IF SO BE that Mary and Joseph were truly poor as some Christians CLAIM, then according to Leviticus 14 a POOR person STILL must offer a LAMB of the FIRST year that is without blemish .
And if no lamb is SUFFICIENT or without blemish, then the offering of two turtle doves or two pigeons is the Law of Mose.
Again, we only know what they BOUGHT and NOT what they actually OFFERED.
It may have been that the two turtle doves flew away or they died on their way to Jerusalem.
It may be that they already had the two he lambs and the one ewe lamb but they needed to BUY the two turtle doves and the seller only had two pigeons.
This is why I myself conclude that Luke ONLY quoted PART of the Old Testament law with the INTENDED meaning of the WHOLE law already being UNDERSTOOD by the Jewish readers.
Please keep in mind that the two passages of scripture in the Old Testament are completely different wording in the original Hebrew.
And, therefore, it would be quite a stretch to dogmatically demand that the phrase “And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb,” means, without fail, that Mary and Joseph were so poor that they could not afford to offer a lamb to God.
For you see, even a leper that would truly be far poorer than even the poorest of the poor, is still required to offer a LAMB of the FIRST YEAR along with the two turtle doves or the two young pigeons as well, UNLESS there are no unblemished lambs to offer.
So clearly, to ME, the New Testament writer INTENDED for the reader to UNDERSTAND that Old Testament law ALREADY, and that is why he only quoted PART of the law.
Again, the Bible simply does not say WHAT Mary and Joseph ACTUALLY offered, but rather Luke just quotes only PART of the ALREADY UNDERSTOOD law of the Old Testament.
So again, we only know what they BOUGHT and NOT what they actually OFFERED.
Let me say again that it may have been that the two turtle doves flew away or they died on their way to Jerusalem.
It may be that they had had the two he lambs and the one ewe lamb, but they needed to BUY the two turtle doves and the seller only had two pigeons.
Now, even if you still do not agree that the family of Jesus was extremely rich, you should agree that the Bible APPEARS to lead us to believe that Joseph had DIED sometime after Jesus was lost for three days at the age of twelve.
This would explain WHY Joseph of Arimathea ADOPTED Jesus and became the legal guardian of Mary and Jesus.
This also means that Jesus took over his deceased father’s business and was still the legal heir to whatever his earthly inheritance would have been.
That is to say, Jesus gave up owning his father Joseph’s carpentry business to BECOME POOR for our sakes.
I am a carpenter and it takes a lot of tools to do carpentry work and tools are expensive.
Now, I may not be rich according to the standards of others, but I make a good living.
And thus, I do not consider myself to be dirt poor like some claim Jesus to have been.
So then, you see one can be RICH financially in their OWN eyes whether or not another person QUALIFIES that person as being RICH in THEIR eyes.
So, no matter WHAT earthly FINANCIAL wealth that Jesus gave up, the mere FACT of just leaving home and his mother behind to go preach the gospel was STILL being RICH to Jesus.
You see, Jesus said that if you leave or GIVE up family for the sake of the Gospel, then God will give you many mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters in this present world.
In other words, ANYthing that you personally consider for yourself to be rich, even if others do not consider you to be rich and you give it up, then you BECOME POOR in SPIRIT.
So, the TRUTH of the matter is that even IF Jesus could be proven without a doubt that he was the POOREST man on the face of the earth and had absolutely NO FINANCIAL WEALTH as some CLAIM, Jesus still became POOR in SPIRIT by giving up whatever he did have that was important to HIM.
And some consider their FAMILY as being their GREATEST TREASURE of ALL.
And we know that Jesus left home to travel around and preach the gospel.
Thus, Jesus BECAME POOR in this way of leaving all behind by his OWN CHOICE to have nowhere to lay his head when he left home to do his God and Father’s WILL.
Jesus said in Matthew 5:3 that the poor in SPIRIT shall be blessed and theirs shall be the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:3.
“Blessed are the poor in SPIRIT: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
This is what I personally believe that the verse in 2 Corinthians 8:9 truly means in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.
Jesus was TEACHING us that no matter what we give up for God we become SPIRITUALLY rich because we have willingly become poor in SPIRIT.
Sometimes we commit every thing we have and every thing we are to God and say USE me God for your glory.
But then, God lets us keep our earthly treasures, because he knows our hearts and that these earthly goods do NOT OWN us.
That is just ONE of the meanings of being poor in SPIRIT.
God sees our HEART or the inner man of our “spirit” that is WILLING to give up everything for the sake of the Gospel.
But at other times, even the very poor in man’s eyes are asked to give up what little they do have, as in comparison to what others that are wealthier than them.
But in their own eyes, to the poor, that little that they do have is their very LIVING.
Jesus said of the widow woman who gave two pennies that she gave MORE than all the rest who gave out of their INCREASE because she gave what she NEEDED to LIVE on.
So, in God’s eyes the “amount” of money is not what God sees.
But rather, it is the LOVE of giving whatever a person can afford to give which does NOT need to be MONEY.
Having the heart to esteem others above ourselves is what God desires to see is us.
Opening the door for someone rather than waiting for them to open the door for you.
The cross reference in my Bible of Matthew 5:3 referred me back to Isaiah 66:2, which teaches us that what Jesus did ON the earth in the days of his flesh is HOW he made himself POOR in SPIRIT.
Isaiah 66:1,2.
“Thus says the LORD, (Speaking of Almighty God YHWH) The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that you build unto me? And where is the place of my rest?
Isaiah 66:2. For all those things has mine hand made, and all those things have been, says the LORD: but to THIS MAN will I look, even to HIM that is POOR and of a CONTRITE SPIRIT, and trembles at My word.”
Now, to me, this does not sound like a MAN coming down from heaven and leaving everything behind to become poor.
But rather, THIS MAN to whom the Yahweh the Father will look upon fears His God and Father’s word.
And thus, that MAN makes himself of a POOR and contrite SPIRIT.
Here is another PROPHECY of Jesus being of a POOR and CONTRITE SPIRIT.
Psalm 34:1-22.
“I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth.
Psalm 34:2. My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the HUMBLE shall hear thereof, and be glad.
Psalm 34:3. O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together.
Psalm 34:4. I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.
Psalm 34:5. They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed. (Speaking of people who truly looked and consider who this HUMBLE man of a POOR and CONTRITE SPIRIT truly was, and then believed on him as the Messiah)
Psalm 34:6. THIS POOR MAN cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. (And Jesus cried out to his God to not LEAVE his soul on hell)
Psalm 34:7. The angel of the LORD encamps round about them that FEAR Him, and delivers them. (And Jesus feared but God SAVED him from DEATH, according to Hebrews 5:7)
Psalm 34:8. O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that TRUSTS in him. (Blessed in the man who is POOR in SPIRIT.
So, those who TRUST in God and FEAR his word will be made RICH in God and have NO WANT.
In other words, Jesus was our EXAMPLE to follow. Jesus became poor in SPIRIT by trusting in God’s word)
Psalm 34:9. O fear the LORD, you his saints: for there is NO WANT to them that FEAR him. (This is prophecy of Jesus who is teaching us HOW to be RICH and have NO WANT)
Psalm 34:10. The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that SEEK the LORD shall NOT WANT ANY GOOD THING.
Psalm 34:11. Come, you children, hearken unto ME: I (Jesus) will TEACH you the FEAR of the LORD.
Psalm 34:12. What man is he that desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? (Jesus said whatever you FORSAKE for the kingdom of God shall be added to us now in this life and in the world to come.)
Psalm 34:13. Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking guile. (A good man out of the good TREASURE of his HEART shall bring forth good things and and evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart shall bring forth evil things)
Psalm 34:14. Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
Psalm 34:15. The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Psalm 34:16. The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Psalm 34:17. The righteous cry, and the LORD hears, and delivers them out of all their troubles.
Psalm 34:18. The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a BROKEN heart; and saves such as be of a CONTRITE SPIRIT.
Psalm 34:19. Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivers him out of them all.
Psalm 34:20. He keeps all his bones: NOT ONE of them is BROKEN. (Not one of the bones of Jesus was broken, which is the standard practice of one being crucified on a cross.
The soldiers broke the legs of the two thieves on the cross, but when they came to Jesus they saw he was already dead so they pierced his side with a spear instead to make sure that Jesus was dead)
Psalm 34:21. Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
Psalm 34:22. The LORD redeems the soul of his servants: and none of them that TRUST in him shall be desolate.”
The Bible says that some will TRUST in chariots, and some TRUST in horses, but we shall TRUST in the name of the Lord our God and Jesus.
This teaches us NOT to TRUST in earthly RICHES, but rather, to TRUST in God to supply all of our needs according to His riches in Jesus Christ.
This is why Jesus taught us that whatever FAMILY or houses that we GIVE UP for the sake of the gospel that God will reward us now in this present world a hundred fold and with eternal life in the world to come.
Please do not misunderstand what I am saying. I am not teaching that God will make Christians RICH financially, but that God will make us rich SPIRITUALLY.
You cannot put a PRICE on the JOY of the Lord and the rewards that God gives us for helping others.
Becoming poor in spirit also means to be HUNGRY for God.
When we are hungry for the TRUTH and we SEEK God to be fed only the truth, then we are made RICH in what truly matters.
So, in conclusion, I myself do NOT see that 1 Corinthians 8:9 proves, without fail, that Jesus pre-existed for all eternity as God the Son, the second person of the Trinity who never had a BEGINNING.
I do not see any verse of Scripture that teaches us that Jesus pre-existed in any form as a SEPARATE person from the Father BEFORE his virgin birth.
To me, Jesus came out from God as God’s spoken word of PROPHECY and Almighty God.
And then, Yahweh PERFORMED His own spoken word of prophecy to be fulfilled.
Please read all of the studies under the subject menu heading called ** D-0. The Biblical Jesus** Biblical Unitarian VIEW of Jesus!
Now, there are yet many more verses to examine more closely, so let us continue this study in God's word by reading John 8:14.
In that verse Jesus says, I know where I came and where I go.
But to continue reading, you need to click on this link to learn the TRUE meaning of that verse of Scripture in the light of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.
So, please read the study called V-37. John 8:14,23 Jesus Came FROM ABOVE!
Also, here is the website reference for Jewish history that I used in this study to show that Jesus was of a ROYAL lineage destined to be a King.
http://www.biblesearchers.com/yahshua/davidian/dynasty2.shtml
And below is a complete list of all the studies that I have which show WHY I no longer believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and why I can NEVER believe in the doctrine of Oneness.
** V-0. Did Jesus LITERALLY Pre-exist? **
I assure you that every verse that SEEMS to be saying that Jesus pre-existed in the eternity past has another meaning that does NOT contradict any other verses of Scripture in the entire Bible.
Thanks for reading, and may God bless you richly as you continue to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.
And to me, the truth concerning who Jesus TRULY is, according to the Bible ITSELF, is the Biblical Unitarian view of Jesus.
Once Christians, Jews, Muslims, and even atheists understand the REASON that Yahweh CREATED the Son of MAN, Jesus, was to have DOMINION over the work of Yahweh’s hands.
And after you understand that the REASON that Yahweh did that is to STILL His ENEMIES, Satan and the fallen angels.
Then you can understand that God made His human Son to become “a” Lord, “a” King, and “a” God, under and subject to his God and Father in order to JUDGE Satan and the fallen angels.
For a deeper understanding of this WAR that Lucifer and one third of the angels waged against the throne of Almighty God, please read the studies under the subject category called ** Q-0 Why Are We Here? Is God at WAR? **.
More studies are coming in this SHORTER Biblical Unitarian view of who Jesus is according to the WHOLE word of God.
If you have a PARTICULAR verse of Scripture that you would like to know the sound Biblical Unitarian meaning, then please email me at MarkatAMatterOfTruth@Gmail.com and let me know.
For further and more in-depth studies on this subject of Jesus being created to STILL the enemies of Yahweh, please read the studies called D-25. A NEW LOOK at JOHN 1:1, In the BEGINNING!
And also read the study called D-28. The PRE-ADAMIC LUCIFERIAN FLOOD!
At the top of my homepage, there are subjects or categories which contain compiled lists of ** ALL Studies! ** I have written on that particular subject. So, if a link within a study is broken, then click on ** ALL Studies! ** to find the suggested study.
Or you can scroll down to the MORE dropdown menu list to find those studies as well.
Thanks again for reading, and may God bless you richly as you continue to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.
And to me, the truth concerning who Jesus TRULY is, according to the Bible ITSELF, is the Biblical Unitarian view of Jesus.
And again, for ALL of the studies on the Biblical Unitarian view of Jesus, please click on the subject heading ** D-0 The BIBLICAL UNITARIAN VIEW of Jesus! **
And for the SUBJECT on the true foundation of the church, please click on the subject heading ** C-0 The TRUE FOUNDATION of the Church! **
This way you can just send ONE link to those who you want to share the TRUE sound Biblical FOUNDATIONAL teachings of the church that Jesus and his Apostles taught in the first century church.
Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
Brother Mark.
My heartfelt prayer is that all Christians RETURN to the TRUE FOUNDATION of the church that is taught by the very Apostles of Jesus in the first century.
So let us all come into the UNITY of the faith and return to what Jesus and his Apostles taught us in SIMPLICITY in the New Testament.
To learn more TRUTH, then please return to:
My HOMEPAGE at
Or
Type in the SEARCH bar
Or
The Church of the Firstborn of God
Or
Go to my NEW Website at
Also, here is the MASTER Menu List of my 8 NEW BOOKS with LINKS to all of the chapters in those eight new books.
Always be faithful to share, to preach, and to teach the whole gospel of Jesus Christ!
Report abuse