too gendai?
Gendai experimental haiga — jp
News Item/ pic source: Daily Mail
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Comments from HSA on FB [strictly for non-commercial & educational purposes only]
THIS ART ITEM WAS POSTED TO HARVEST ' SPECIALIST ' OPINION FROM MODERN HAIKAI PERSPECTIVE. THIS IS WHAT WE GOT. . . .
John Potts http://tinyurl.com/Gendai
about an hour ago
Norman Darlington What am I missing here? Has this post any connection with haikai?
about an hour ago
Alison Williams You, John, appear to be telling us what you think the birds are showing us. Too much thinking and telling here for my taste. I don't see what this has to do with gendai.
about an hour ago
Zen Anecdotes What am I missing here, in your comments Norman and Alison? Was interested in finding out more about Gendai so that I could form my own opinion, but your apparently negative responses came so quickly that I haven't had a chance to learn anything new - yet Shees - it's tough being a new kid on the block!
about an hour ago
Alison Williams Gendai translates as 'modern' but is also the name of a particular group in Japan - The Gendai Haiku Kyokai (Modern Haiku Association) who write in a non-tradiitonal style. (Don't let anyone's comments stop you from learning and forming your own opinion!)
about an hour ago
Zen Anecdotes It won't Alison :) Yes, I read the two responses before I'd learned anything about gendai, and well, that can kinda skew things. I was quite intriqued by the post, and it seemed at first reading that either gendai is a "dirty word", or that John's post was not a good example? Or both? Rhetorical questions, for now!
51 minutes ago
Norman Darlington Sorry if I offended, Megan.You didn't miss anything. My question was sincere. Until now I didn't realise that the text "what are you trying to tell us little goslings?" was poetry.
49 minutes ago
Alison Williams Even though the DM has a somewhat dubious reputation on image copyright itself I hope permission was sought for the use of the image.
44 minutes ago
Norman Darlington Rather more importantly, though, there appears to be a blatant COPYRIGHT VIOLATION here. John has reproduced a copyrighted image and text, from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-471681/Fake-bird-scaring-owl-home-family-swallows.html which carries the text "© Associated Newspapers Ltd" and the photo itself includes "© Barry Gomer"
44 minutes ago
Alison Williams Cross-posted Norman!
42 minutes ago
Zen Anecdotes Ah, that explains your first comment, Norman. Not offended - just a bit surprised. But now the whole thread has taken on a new slant ... copyright! One of my courses while studying art at a Santa Fe, NM college ... the post makes the source clear. No copyright infringement.
37 minutes ago
Alison Williams Making the source clear is not enough to make it ok if permission has not been given for use. I don't know about the US but I DO know UK copyright law. I often have to deal with enquiries about it in my day job!
33 minutes ago
Zen Anecdotes Hmm. So I wonder why one can share their articles on fb/twitter/ad infinitum, at the click of a mouse then!? Ooops, I might be denied entry into the UK for copyright infringement next time I visit, even though I have used their images, cited the source, and am making no profit from them. One would think they'd be delighted by the free advertising. But I bow down to your on-the-job experience and knowledge, Alison!
Marlene Mountain i hope you get an answer za. i've also wondered
43 minutes ago
Alison Williams Zen, the last thing I want on a day off work is a long discussion about copyright! But, briefly, sharing a newspaper article as it was originally published is fine. What's not fine is copying a photographer's work and creating your own work from it without his permission. 30 minutes ago
[Fair point, fair use. . . . Banksy? — jp]
John Potts [Fair point, fair use. . . . Banksy? http://tinyurl.com/copyrite] What about the object as art, though - is it too gendai?
what are you
trying to tell us
little goslings?
jp
17 minutes ago
Susan Reinhard Most of copyright is just saying that it's copywritten. It cost me $35 to get my last play copywritten and 5 months to process and get back a number. None of us can wait that long or pay or every haiku and poem. We are going on trust and a mild threat of persecution. 16 minutes ago
Zen Anecdotes Well I would agree with that, Alison, being an artist and photographer myself, since retiring from my original profession! However, once I post my work in the public domain, I have no recourse unless I spend an awful lot of money taking out a legal copyright. The choice then is to post or not to post. As a matter of courtesy, I would expect anyone who re-uses my images (or my poetry/writing) to at least credit me. As you probably know, In academic circles one would cite one's sources. I wonder why it should be any different for images over original writing? Just thinking :) I appreciate your taking time to respond after a busy day. 12 minutes ago
John Potts hello?
9 minutes ago ·
Pris Campbell
Zen, if we share a link, we're sending the reader to the original source and that's not a problem. If something has been published the general rule, as I understand it, is that short quotes can be written for purpose of review but the article can't be copied in its entirety without the owner's permission. That statement is in the small press poetry books I've written. I've reviewed a few and follow that rule with sparing quotes in the review, then refer the reader to where the book can be bought. When it comes to our unpublished word of any type we're almost defenseless if we post it on a blog , website, etc. If someone submits it to a journal, however, and we can show in some way that it's our work, most journals will remove it and not publish that person again. I knew of one poet who did that repeatedly until she was persona non grati in the literary world.....well, until she found someone who hadn't heard of what she was doing. I want my work read, too, but for things I plan to submit, I don't display them until after they've been published and the next journal issue is out after that publication.
2 hours ago 2 people
Norman Darlington
From the Daily Mail website at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-1227210/Contact-Us.html . It seems fairly unequivocal.
"Copyright
This website is protected by copyright and other intellectual property rights and laws. It is published by DMGT Opportunities. The copyright in the contents of all the pages in the website (other than in the CVs which remains the copyright of the individuals and/or as otherwise specified) is owned by or licensed to DMGT.
You may view the website provided that (and the following apply to the whole or any part of the website):
it is for your personal use only;
you may not copy or transmit it or otherwise reproduce it or make it available except to download it onto a single CPU and view it for private use only;
you may not, except with our express prior written permission, distribute or commercially exploit it;
you may not transmit it or make it available on a network without our express prior written permission;
use of it is at your sole risk.
All other rights are reserved to DMGT Opportunities."
about an hour ago 1 person
Pris Campbell Norman, I have a statement of ownership on the list of poems on my website. I hope it carries as much weight as with a public website such as this one which is indeed legally copyrighted.
41 minutes ago
Zen Anecdotes Thanks everyone! And now, back to the beginning, and learning more about gendai!
38 minutes ago 1 person
Norman Darlington
All our work is by default copyrighted, Pris. You don't legally need to place a statement of ownership or a © on your pages for copyright to be in force, but of course it may serve as a reminder. Michael Dylan Welch is well-informed in this regard - perhaps he might be tempted to add his thoughts?
John, is it your intention to continue to violate the copyright of the photographer and the publisher in this case? You see, it's very hard for some of us not to be reminded of a certain incident from last year...
25 minutes ago 1 person
John Potts
We'll get to that shortly, in the meanwhile. . . .
[Fair point, fair use. . . . Banksy? http://tinyurl.com/copyrite] What about the object as art, though - is it too gendai?
What about the object as art, though - is it too gendai?
what are you
trying to tell us
little goslings?
jp
23 minutes ago
John Potts (Pretty please, respect the post topic - I know Hallowe'en and the long-nosed goblins and all that enlightenment are a-foot.)
20 minutes ago
Pris Campbell Norman, are you sure about this? I ran a copyright blog for about a year and for things unpublished from our research then we didn't seem to have many rights. I hope things have changed. Yes, I hope Michael Dylan Welch can offer some documentation . Thanks.
15 minutes ago
Moira Richards was there not an entire journal off'ed from the internet recently becasue of copyright infringements...?
10 minutes ago
John Potts Come on Pris and Norm, topic-focus please. You can open a NEW TOPIC on copyright? That should be well attended, I suspect. . . .
10 minutes ago ·
[Imagine living in such mind-sets! — jp]
Norman Darlington John, you are the one who has chosen to bring copyright into focus here by flagrantly infringing it. Whatever about posting it at your own Facebook group, do you really imagine that it's okay to place your copyright violation here on the HSA page?
As many here will remember, you have 'form' in this arena, John. Do I really need to remind? [We will explore this, in depth. — jp]
21 minutes ago · Like · 2 people
Pris Campbell Moira, what journal was that?
14 minutes ago · Like
John Potts
As I said before, Norm - if it pleases you, open a thread specifically discussing the issue you seem be keen to air. Don't be afraid. I'm good to go on that. In the meanwhile, you are trampling all over an art topic with incredible dedication. ^_^
Here, read this and then have fun spinning it fit your, clearly, antagonistic theme. . . . http://tinyurl.com/copyrite You can cite it on your copyright post, by kind ermission of its author (it's fair use anyway).
jp
12 minutes ago · Like
John Potts (Witness this everyone - note the game.)
7 minutes ago · Like
Norman Darlington No. I am talking specifically about this post, John. Hence I am very much on topic. People here rely very much on a sense of trust - are you showing that you are trustworthy in respecting others' work?
5 minutes ago · Like · 1 person
John Potts Please discuss the topic question. If you want to do copyright, open your own topic.'Is this too gandei?' is the question. What part of that is confusing? ^_^ That would be my last word on that. I'm going to let this thread have a life of its own. . . Good luck and God bless the pair of you.
jp
[And on they went, in their polite arrogance, as if that changes anything. The same people were talking about respect for individuals and their posts about a week or so ago! This was my response to that (which was, of course, deleted after 24 hours). They know not what they do - God bless them. — jp]
Michael Dylan Welch
Pris, in the United State and many other Western countries, original works are automatically copyrighted the moment they are "affixed" -- which could mean something as simple as jotting them on a sticky note. No publication is needed. This is distinct from *registering* your copyright, which can provide additional protections for material that is more likely to be subject to infringement. This situation (that you do *not* need to register your copyright in order to have copyright) has been the case at least since 1976 when US copyright law was overhauled. No copyright notice needs to appear for copyright to exist, but if something like a book includes a copyright notice, that notice makes it clear who owns the rights and when the original content was copyrighted. As for this thread, it has necessarily veered into the realm of copyright because of a perceived copyright violation. We should all be careful not to infringe on the rights of others or violate fair use when posting on the HSA page -- or elsewhere on Facebook, for that matter.
8 hours ago
Pris Campbell I really appreciate your clearing this up. Where I've seen problems is when the thief claims to have proof that he.she wrote it first. It sounds like a good idea to put unpublished things somewhere where they can be dated and recognized as yours. If something is published there can be no misunderstanding,
about an hour ago
Karen Cesar I've only been posting work that is published, partly for that reason and partly because editors differ so widely in what they consider published that it is easier/safer to do it that way. I've left the publishing credits off of the last few as adding that seemed a bit like my insecurity needing an imprimatur .
58 minutes ago via mobile
Pris Campbell Karen, I do that, too, most of the time except with my haiku. I don't think crediting the source indicates insecurity at all. I think most journals like the credit:-)
50 minutes ago
[The End? No chance. . . .]
Moira Richards
hi Pris…I’d thought the journal incident was common knowledge since the co-Editor-in-Chief sent emails out about it. Better I don’t shame them in public, if not. My point was that I think a problem arises when people start using others’ poems as ‘fair game’ rather than ‘fair use’. The latter is a respectful referencing of others’ work for literary/artistic reasons and is pretty much covered by, if not copyright, then good manners.
‘Fair game’ usage is a kind of perversion of ‘fair use’ which people hide behind for purposes of using other’s work for disrespectful and self-serving reasons such as pretending to have created it, pretending to have obtained permission to use/adapt it, and particularly, to publicly ridicule someone else and their work. I’ve seen this last most often done in the guise of ‘scholarly critique’ or ‘lesson-giving’ which is actually nothing more than pretty vicious axe-grinding and/or spleen-venting and/or attempts at point-scoring.
The trouble with that ‘fair game’ type usage is that it’s gone beyond copyright issues and into the ‘terms of use’ rules by which we’re governed here on fb and anywhere else on the ‘net where websites and other platforms for posting are hosted. Web hosts are generally pretty strict about giving space to verbal abuse, hate-speech, trolling and such (just read the terms of use at the bottom of this fb page) and can (and do) easily remove entire accounts, pages or journals if they’re given evidence of mal-use.
4 hours ago
Pris Campbell No, no, I didn't want you to 'out' anyone publicly. I guess I missed that announcement. I've seen some of what you refer to as 'fair game' use.....like taking someone's work without permission and holding it up to ridicule or as an example of how not to do it. I think 'good manners' is really the moral guideline here. [right, my post about gendai has been hijacked by superior beings - in their minds at least. 'Good manners'. lol —jp] 3 hours ago
Alan Summers I don't think I know about any journal infringing rights? Could someone pm me about it? I promise to keep it confidential.
4 minutes ago
Moira Richards I'm sure it's no huge secret, the email I got looked like a mass-mailing but pm me your email addy and I'll forward a copy...30 minutes ago
Hansha Teki
I am familiar with the article that Moira Richards has obliquely referred to.
The said article DID NOT attack nor did it put down any person or their poetic ability. Read the WHOLE article yourselves instead of relying on hearsay.
What the critic did, in the context of a lengthy article on his perception of the failure of most modern haiku variations, was quote a haiku by Basho and a modern haiku-like poem in English then ask the reader to decide which they preferred. He then explained what he sees is lacking in modern haiku-like poems.
The modern poem had been honourably mentioned in some prestigious award so was clearly a suitable example of much lauded modern variations of haiku.
The writer of the latter poem took offence that her piece suffered in the comparison and seems to have set out on a campaign of vilification of the article's writer ultimately resorting to crying 'copyright infringement'. Moira Richards appears to be unwittingly continuing the campaign of vilification.
So much has been made of removing ego from the 'haiku moment' but we seem to be witnessing waves of fog and innuendo to salve someone's bruised ego.
2 hours ago ·
[Well said. — jp]
John Potts http://tinyurl.com/HaikuDiplomats
a few seconds ago
18 minutes ago
Moira Richards
Hi Hansha Teki
I make no comment on the literary (or not) merits of that article. Bottom line is that the journal was off’d from the internet for a week or two and had to find a new service provider to host its entire enterprise.
This bottom line means that for the likes of you and me, it’s irrelevant whether using others’ work is fair use, fair game, scholarly or trashy – if your service provider perceives it to be against their terms of use and good behaviour then they can and often will wipe you off the web.
Imnsvho, the freedoms of press and speech are linked inextricably with responsibility, respect and old-fashioned good manners. Or would you disagree?
Hansha Teki
Hello Moira,
I hear what you say and will correct a couple of your facts.
The website hosting the journal was suspended by the service provider as is standard practice when a copyright complaint is made regardless of the validity of the complaint. The complainant was apparently well aware of this "guilty until proven innocent practice" of site hosting service providers. The journal did not move to a new provider but replaced the quoted haiku with another to appease the complainant.
The complaint against the journal, unjustified as it was, caused other subdomain sites under the provision of the hosting domain to also be suspended causing great disruption to those sites.
The main question I would have though is - "Have you read the article in its entirety?" If having done so, do you really believe that there was abuse of the 'fair use rule'? If so, why do you think it is that the others used as examples of modern haiku like poems took no such offence?
Must one avoid quoting from writers who wear "I am as significant a haijin as Basho" signs on their foreheads? Is scholarly and analytical criticism of contemporary haiku like poems and trends not permitted?
22 seconds ago
[Man, this guy is good. — jp]
Moira Richards Hansha there's no ways I can respond to your last without repeating my last so maybe just read it again if you're wanting one?6 minutes ago
Norman Darlington John Potts, you've done the copyright violation thing yet again! 4 or 5 comments up this thread, you've posted an external link to your website https://sites.google.com/site/inthesoundofwater/home/splash/diplomats-of-haiku , where you quote private correspondence from Ce Rosenow, and linked to this is a page https://sites.google.com/site/inthesoundofwater/home/splash/diplomats-of-haiku/source where you reproduce comments by Pris Campbell . Have you asked their permission to reproduce?
21 seconds ago
[Is Norman on a mission? — jp]
Hansha Teki
Moira, I do not disagree that the freedoms of press and speech are linked inextricably with responsibility, respect and old-fashioned good manners. I read the unsaid implied in your statement - "tread in fear lest those who believe that they wield power over you bully you into silence for perceived breaches of good conduct."
The site hosting providers are intimidated by any complaints by aggrieved persons without actually looking into whether the complaint is even justified. It smacks of the real life situations of malicious informants reporting neighbours in certain totalitarian societies of recent history.
19 minutes ago
Moira Richards
Hiya Pris, copyright issues aside, surely it’s just polite to ask permission to use someone else’s work? because, essentially, you’re using it to, in some way, enhance your own journal/poetry/scholarliness/agenda/whatever...
If I write and ask your permission to use your poems in an article as illustration of ‘good haiku’ you may or may not say yes, depending on your assessment of me as a judge of haiku.
If I write and ask your permission to use your poems in an article as illustration of ‘bad haiku’ and you say no - then you would want to examine my motives if I went ahead and used your work anyway. You’d want to examine my motives too, if I didn’t even ask permission; or refused to withdraw something you found to be an offensive use of your work.
It’s not as if there’s any shortage of ‘bad haiku’ in the universe. I’m sure we’ve all got bottom drawers full of our own bad poetry, published and not. Why would I not use some of my own work to exemplify bad haiku? Wouldn’t that best demonstrate true egolessness and selfless service to the cause of rigorous literary critique ;-)
18 minutes ago
Hansha Teki Pris, I highly recommend that you read the article and exercise your own discernment and not rely on innuendo and hearsay. Gossip is never acceptable.
12 minutes ago
Hansha Teki Pris, I highly recommend that you read the article and exercise your own discernment and not rely on innuendo and hearsay. Gossip is never acceptable.
16 minutes ago
Alan Summers Setting aside the gossip and names etc... we are very lucky to have in our possession so much info on gendai haiku in English, and of course it would be great to have this information in other languages too.
Moira Richards oy Hansha, I’m not about to respond to an argument based on stuff I didn’t say. But be my guest, put words in my mouth and argue with them and I’ll watch the fun from the sidelines ;-))
11 minutes ago· 1 person
Hansha Teki My mistake. Apologies.
[The reason some people clash is because there are two two sets of rules? Personally, I'd say, good manners and respect for peoples topics goes a long way in a democratic world? — jp]
Zen Anecdotes @John: Your original post seems to have been hijacked! In answer to the question you pose: Is this too gendai? I guess one could say no, this thread is now not gendai at all :D 9minutes ago
Alan Summers The original post had no bearing on gendai which is why it might have confused folks.
[This should be interesting. . . . — jp]
Zen Anecdotes
@Alan: The original post did, however, ask a question! If somebody had given this opinion (that it had no bearing on gendai) long ago, and an meaningful explanation as to why not, the confusion would probably not have arisen! Instead the thread has degenerated into nit-picking and a war of words about things that have nothing really to do with gendai. What a disappointment, other than the links posted, which are appreciated.
2 hours ago
Alan Summers It's a shame that the post wasn't a good one and raised the controversary over copyright. The verse embedded wasn't gendai, but a kind of Issaesque verse, and something about fake owls failing to scare birds away. 2 hours ago 1 person
Zen Anecdotes I read that, but it took a long time for anyone to respond. I was interested (and have since been following Pris' thread). But, thank you for expressing an opinion on the original post now. Not all of us are accomplished poets - we learn by example from those who are - and the responses here were not always a very good example either :) Sobeit.
2 hours ago
Alan Summers Dear Zen Anecdotes Glad you liked Pris's post re gendai, and that it's received good answers.
2 hours ago 1 person
Norman Darlington So am I. Megan, when someone makes a post which includes a substantial copyright violation, no-one should be surprised if the conversation focuses on this.
about an hour ago 1 person
Zen Anecdotes
OK, all this other stuff aside, can someone please give an opinion on why this, quoted by Alan, which I am assuming is an fine example of gendai .....(?)
"Wandering like my old mother
a silver fox
lets out a strange voice
—Kika Hotta (Japan)
Honourable Mention
14th Mainichi Haiku Contest 2010"
is all that different from an "Issaesque" verse, with deeper layers than a cursory reading may suggest, IMHO?
Why am under the impression (mistaken?) that gendai's shift is to "dealing with urban contexts, species extinction, globalization, mechanzed war — and, questions of the relevance of haiku (if not poetry) to modernity are implicity addressed by these poets, often in a novel manner" (Gilbert).
(As an aside, I am aware of the role of foxes in japanese folklore :) Tricksters, just as the fake owl could be :))
53 minutes ago
Pris Campbell
There's so much going on in this thread. First, Alan , I would be interested in more about how the haiku is gendai, too....and I do love that example. I'm still trying to understand individual examples of gendai and what makes them such. I've read three of the links now on the thread I started and they're really good. A breakdown of examples would help a LOT!
John, I hadn't realized you quoted me on a blog you're keeping. If the moderator of this group doesn't mind having the rules reiterated elsewhere it seems sufficient to put that, but to also post that I'm withdrawing a post without any context, ie the post itself, makes me sound like I was being singled out (which I wasn't, either privately or publicly) and have been a troublemaker on the board (to my knowlege, I haven't been:).
I chose to remove a question I posted that led, without my original intent, to a heated argument. Arguments have occurred on other posts, as well. I would truly appreciate your either putting in the question I posted, which was asking about the status of the chapbook many members contributed (Haiku or funding) to for the benefit of Japan or removing my comments. I would consider it gracious on your part and thank you in advance.
37 minutes ago
[Let that be the explanation above - the post was deleted by the perpitrator, Pris, by their own admission, there. What I do know, though, is that Marlene - also on that other thread- was cautioned for slurring another member's name (Robert D. Wilson, one of the leading authorities on haiku and related matters IN THE WORLD!). Robert subsequently left the group. Appalling behaviour - and this appears to be the norm (sic). I mean, for God's sake, witness this nutty thread. . . . — jp]
Alan Summers I don't know if this is gendai. It was submitted to Mainichi, so it's likely to be just a normal straightforward haiku.
36 minutes ago · Like · 1 person
Pris Campbell Moira , I agree.
35 minutes ago · Like
Pris Campbell Thanks, Alan.
35 minutes ago · Like
AND THEN?
Pris Campbell
Political/Gendai haiga? Question: I created this from newspaper headlines and images merged. I don't plan to submit it anywhere for that reason [neither did I! — jp] but I'm curious if reproducing a headline of a public newspaper is copyright violation. [whatever that means in non-gobbldygookese — jp]
http://www.facebook.com/groups/137567702957028/?view=permalink&id=238158862897911
SO THERE WE HAVE IT.
WHAT'S THE WORD FOR ALL THAT?
HYP.. SOMETHING. laugh out loud.
^..^
[Hallowe'en bat smiley]
22-09-11
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