Matthias Lucas- evidence to House of Commons committee (1797)

Post date: Dec 09, 2015 3:18:2 PM

With appreciation to Sarah Palmer for drawing my attention to the following evidence of Matthias Lucas to a House of Commons committee taking evidence in relation to the "making Wet Docks, Basons, Cuts, and other Works, for the greater Accommodation and Security of Shipping, Commerce and Revenue, within the Port of London."

Mr. Jackson heard , and calls

Mr. MATTHIAS LUCAS

A Customs House Lighterman

How long have you been employed on the River and in the business of the waterside?- More than 16 years.

What is the average time of discharging a West Indiaman of 260 tons burthen, with 450 hogshead of sugar, under the present circumstances of the port?- The average time, during the war under the present circumstances of the port has been about 30 days.

Do you know the peace average?- I do not know exactly the [peace average, but it must be considerably less (Jamaica ships excepted) in consequence of their being detained up to the 30 days with rum on board.

Is it deferring the entries on rum up to the 30 days a usual circumstance?- It is in consequence of their being sold on board ship by sample.

What would be the average time for discharging a ship of the same description supposing the entries of the merchants to be speedily made, and all other necessary regulations to have taken place?- Eight days.

What other regulations do you refer to?-The entries for the sugar and cargo generally, to be made on the ship's reporting and the rum to be immediately taken out,, without detaining the ship for the purpose of selling.

What would be the average time of discharging a ship of the same description, and under the same regulations, in the proposed docks?-The same as in the river, under the same regulations, taking the time of commencing work from the vessel's being under crane in the dock?- The difference of time would vary with the difference of tides: on Spring tides not more than a day would be lost ; but on Neap tides , a detention of two or three days would frequently occur; and with ships of extreme tonnage in the trade, I would suppose a much greater detention in getting into the docks would occur.

Do you mean such detention to be in favour of or against the docks?- The detention against the docks.

In the time which you have stated vessels taking their discharge do you include Sundays?- I do; Sundays are included in the time allowed by law for rums being taken out.

If 100 sail of West Indiamen were to arrive in one fleet, what would be the difference of time between getting to their moorings in the river, or to their stations in the dock, and under the crane?-Supposing they came into the river on the same day, they might all of them get to their moorings in the course of that day, or the day following; but it would be near a week before the whole of them could get into the dock, under the same circumstance; and unless they had as many cranes in the dock as could accommodate 100 sail of ships, those not so accommodated would experience a further considerable delay.

How many cranes can at the same time work upon the same ship?-Two might, if the cranes were properly constructed; but it is not probable they would employ more than one upon the same ship.

Would the same tide, which carries a ship to her moorings, take her into the proposed docks?- It would frequently on Spring tides but on Neap tides a day would be lost; and if the ship alluded to was of large burthen, two or three days delay would occur.

If as many as ten sail of West Indiamen should arrive at either of the Dock Gates at the same time, and not be able to get in for want of a favourable tide, what would be the consequence of such detention to those ships themselves, and to the general navigation of the river between such Dock Gate and the Custom House—The consequences arising from ships so circumstanced would be expense, risk and delay to themselves and if the river should at the fame time be crowded with shipping, the ships alluded to would contribute to impede the navigation.

To what kind of risk and to what Expense, do you allude ? -—The risk of laying aground, getting on anchors, and the expense of mooring them in the river.

Is the expense of mooring a ship for a night, or for a longer period, the same? — Nearly so.

Are you well acquainted with the present state of the river; and by what means have you become so—I am, and by making personal observations of the depth of the river, and the decrease of water in particular parts of it between Deptford and the Custom House.

Have you made Soundings of it, and of what Parts ? —l have, at most of the tiers between London and Deptford.

Is there not a considerable risk attending such as large West Indiamen, coming up as far as the proposed docks, from the nature and state of the river, independent of the number of ships, or of any want of regulation in mooring of the same ?—There is; I should state, that the large & and most valuable ships moor at Deptford, not so much on account of a want of room in the river, as in consequence of the dangerous navigation between Deptford and the entrance into the intended docks.

What proportion of the West Indiamen, which come into the Port, moor at Deptford, for the reasons you have assigned ? -—l should suppose one fourth of them in point of number, and one third in point of tonnage and value. The dangerous navigation, that I have before alluded to, is the same that the Canal between Blackwall and the Wet Docks, in the original Plan, was taken to enable the ships to avoid.

Have you known instances of accident happening to ships, in attempting to come up between Deptford and the entrance into the proposed Docks? — I have, several.

Adjourned till Tomorrow.

28 April 1797 Called in, and further examined:

Mr. Lucas, You have stated yourself a Custom House Lighterman ; what is the nature of your employ as such? — In conveying merchandise to and from ships with foreign merchandise in the river, and I am licensed as such by the Commissioners of the Customs.

Have you read the Report published last year, by order of the House of Commons ? —l have read some part of it.

Are you the Mr. Lucas, to whom that report alludes, as one of the most intelligent and competent witnesses ?—I am not aware of any other person of that name examined by that Committee.

You have stated eight days as the average of the discharge of a ship in the stream, of above 260 tons burthen, with 450 hogsheads of sugar. Have you discharged any such ship yourself in so short a time, and under what circumstances ?— I have discharged several ships within that time, of that description, during the War.

Does not the dispatch in unloading a West lndiaman depend at present more upon the merchant than upon either the wharﬁnger or the lighterman ? -—The dispatch in unloading a West lndiaman depends very considerably upon the merchant and ship's husband; the first, on passing their entries immediately on the ship’s reporting, and the second, in employing proper persons to put the cargo out of the Ship; and I am decidedly of opinion, the delay in general complained of is more to be attributed to those causes not being complied with, than to any other cause that I am aware of.

Does it not often happen, that single packages, unconnected with the general cargo, retard the clearance of the Ship, which cannot, by the rules of the Custom House, clear while those are on board ? -— Any article reported by the captain, whether subject to duty or not, will prevent the ship’s clearing, if not taken out on an application to the Commissioners of the Customs.

Is it in the power, or is it the duty of the merchant, the captain, or the ship’s husband, to make that application ? — It is the duty of the proprietors of the goods to make that application ; but it is in the power of and is generally done by the captain of the ship.

Have you known instances of any considerable delay arising from that circumstance? - I have, very frequently; I have known the Commissioners of the Customs refuse applications, until the persons applying had advertised the articles in the public papers. In some instances the delay has been a week, and in others three or four days.

If ships should go into the proposed docks by night tides as well as by day, will it not afford great opportunities of plunderage and defraud upon the Revenue? — I am of opinion, the opportunity of plundering and defrauding the Revenue would not be greater than if the ship was mooring in the river.

If they conﬁne themselves to the day tides, will it not greatly increase the delay which you have before stated? - It will increase the delay, certainly; but it is not generally the practice to remove the ships in the river in the night time, unless moonlight.

Might not the docks be so frozen, in a single night, as to prevent the ships going in or out, till the complete breaking up of the frost?—The docks might be so frozen in three or four nights as to prevent ships going in or out until the breaking up of the frost.

How often have you known, within the last seven years, the river to be so frozen as not to be navigable for Ships? — I think once for a period of six or eight weeks within that time; there has been another instance or two, but those for not more than three or four Days.

In such ordinary frosts as would prevent the ships getting into dock, can ships get to their moorings, and be discharging their cargoes in the river? —I think they could very frequently, as I have walked across Greenland Dock upon the Ice. in my \Vay to Deptford, to bring up a lighter of sugar. I have frequently, in ordinary frosts, such as described, been discharging ships, when the present wet docks, such as Greenland Dock and others, have been frozen over.

State any instances which you may recollect, of accidents happening to ships from attempting to come up between Deptford and the entrance of the proposed Docks? — I recollect, and was present at the time the Britannia, White, from Dominica, got ashore, and was lost upon the point between Deptford and the entrance of the proposed docks. ’l'he Britannia, Captain Renwick, from Jamaica, was lost nearly about the same place; and several other vessels, which i was not immediately interested in, and of consequence do not recollect their Names.

Are you acquainted with the plan proposed by this Bill? — I have some knowledge of it.

Do you know if it is proposed by such Plan, that large ships should come up higher than the Dock Gate at Pelican Stairs?= have

understood the gates at Pelican Stairs were to be the entrance for large ships.

Adjourned to Monday next.

,____________.____________________

1st May I797.

Committee proceed.

Mr. Jackson further heard and again calls

Mr. MATTHIAS LUCAS.

What is the state of the river between Deptford and Pelican Stairs and what are the impediments arising therefrom to the navigation of large West lndiamen, from the former Place to the latter ?—-The State of the river between Deptford and Pelican Stairs is very bad in many Parts: a number of accidents frequently occur at that part of the river, called Cuckold's Point, and Pitcher’s Point; there is a considerable decrease in the water in the tiers at Limehouse Hole, and the tiers of the Red House at Deptford have likewise decreased in depth of water; there is a Shoal in the Middle of the River at Limehouse Hole near the Tiers.

How many feet of water do such as you describe. as the larger West lndiamen and other large Foreign Ships, actually draw ?—From sixteen to eighteen feet when laden, some twenty; but they are but few.

What impediments are there, to the navigating such ships from Deptford to the proposed Dock Gates, besides those you have mentioned as arising from the state of the river ?-The neap tides, as long as the river continues in its present state, will always be impediments to ships drawing from eighteen to twenty feet water getting up to the Docks: the Colliers.

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State the usual stations for West Indiamen between Deptford and Pelican Stairs? — From Ratcliﬁe Cross to Shadwell Dock; they also come up to Wapping New Stairs, Wapping Old Stairs, Princes’ Stairs; few go to Church Hole and Hanover Hole. Small Vessels of 150 or 200 tons come up to Rotherhithe and Hosﬂeydown.

Is there any Station for large West Indiamen between Deptford and Ratcliffe Cross? —A few may lie in Limehouse Hole, but the Ground grows up, and it is very shoal water, ships taking the ground at fourteen feet water in three of the tiers.

Would not those West Indiamen which usually lie at Deptford be exposed, in coming up, to the dangers you have mentioned? — Yes, certainly.

Must not the River below the proposed Docks be kept entirely clear, to enable Ships to go in even when they have got up there?—Yes, the Place must be kept clear in order to moor them, in case they cannot get into Dock.

Are they likely to be frequently disappointed from getting into Dock, from the Tide or other Circumstances ? That might frequently happen, according to Circumstances of Wind and Weather.

Can a Way be kept clear for their Entrance into Dock, and for mooring,in cases of Disappointment, without entirely removing the Colliers?—No; they must all, or the greatest Part, be removed entirely.

Have you seen many Accidents happen Earn the Badness of the Navigation, to Ships attempting to come up from Deptford to Pelican Stairs? —- Frequently, both going up and coming down, between Pitcher’s Point and Greenland Dock; some total Losses, and some running aground and getting damaged; several of those which run aground sunk afterwards between Pitcher’s Point and Cuckold's Point.

Would you, as a prudent Pilot, choose to bring up loaded Ships, drawing Eighteen Feet of Water and upwards, from Deptford to the proposed Docks, even at Spring Tides, unless the Colliers were removed, or the Bed of the River cleared? — No, I would not undertake it; by no Means; I would not do it. It is my Opinion that no Man in his Senses would undertake it. Withdrew.

Mr. MATTHIAS LUCAS,

Called in, and further Examined :

Would Ships coming into Dock from this Part of the River, avoid those particular Dangers which you have ascribed to the Navigation of the Thames? — By entering the Dock at or near Greenland Dock, they would avoid all the dangerous Navigation between Deptford and the Entrance into the Dock at Pelican Stairs.

Supposing light Ships and Broom Ships to be the fittest to take out of the River, where would you recommend the Dock ? — In the same Spot I have before been speaking of.

Would the withdrawing Ships of this Description, ease the River as effectually as loaded West Indiamen ? —I think they would, with a proper Dstribution of the Shipping in general in the River, and a greater Depth of Water being made at the several Tiers that have so materially ﬁlled up.

Whether loaded Well Indiamen, or Light Ships and Broom Ships be withdrawn, will not the regular Distribution of shipping, and the deepening of the River at the Tiers be equally necessary ? — It will be equally necessary.

Would a Dock for the Purposses of the latter require either Wharfs, or Warehouses? — It would not.

Would it be attended with any Removal of the Commerce of the Port from its present Seat ? — It would not.

Do you know of any private Injury which such a Dock would create, either to the Proprietors, Lessors, or Occupiers of the Legal Quays, the Sufferance Wharfs, the Warehouses in the City of London, or to any other Description of Persons?—l know of no private Injury such a Dock so situated would create, but I well know it would he a public Beneﬁt.

Would it impose any additional Charge of Lighterage with respect to Distance either to the present Charges, or to those which would be made

from the proposed Docks in Wapping? -— There would be no additional Charge of Lighterage in taking Goods from Ships in that Dock.

Are you of Opinion that a Wet Dock might be made for Light Ships and Broom Ships, at an expense comparatively triﬂing compared with the proposed Docks in Wapping?—The Expense would be very inconsiderable in making 3 Dock at Rotherhithe, in consequence of the Lowness of the Land, and its being entirely unencumbered with Buildings.

What Number of Dwelling Houses, and of what Kind do you think it would be necessary to purchase or remove for such Purpose ? — I should think not more than Twenty Houses, and those small, and of inconsiderable Value.

Do you know how many Dwelling Houses it will be necessary to purchase or remove for the proposed Wet Docks in Wapping? — I do not of my own Knowledge.

From your Acquaintance with the Spot where the Docks are proposed to made in Wapping, can you tell about how many Houses will be required to be taken down ? —I am convinced it will be necessary to purchase and pull down some Hundred Houses, but as to the exact Number I do not feel myself competent to answer. Withdrew.

Adjourned to Friday next.

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Mr. MATTHIAS LUCAS,

Called in, and further Examined:

Do you know what Kind of loaded Ships it is proposed to receive into the Docks at Wapping ?—-I believe it is particularly intended for the Reception of Ships from the West Indies.

What is the Average Value of a loaded West Indiaman?—From Fifteen to Twenty Thousand Pounds.

Are not the Cargoes of West Indiaman of a dangerous or combustible Nature in case of Fire? -Their Cargoes are considered as dangerous and combustible, from their generally having a Quantity of Rum on board; Sugar is not so likely to take Fire, but when a Ship is on Fire, it will certainly add to the Flames, Sugar possessing a Spirit, though not of so dangerous a Nature as Rum.

Are not many of the other Foreign Ships, which might come into these Docks, loaded with Hemp, Pitch, Tar, Turpentine, and Oil ?—There are a considerable Number of Ships frequenting the River loaded with those Kind of Articles, many of which would probably enter the Wet Dock.

Supposing the Docks to contain 440 loaded Ships, as stated in the Merchants Plan, and that the Ships should lie in them in the Proportion of Eight to an Acre, and One of them to be on Fire, and supposing a Ship lying in a Tier on the River Thames be also on Fire, what is your Opinion of the comparative Danger to which the Rest of the Shipping would be exposed under these respective Circumstances, and in these Situations ?--I am of Opinion, if that Number of Ships were placed in the Dock in the Proportion of Eight to an Acre, that on One of the Ships taking Fire the Whole would be in imminent Danger from the crowded State of the Dock ; l have been present in Two Instances where West Indiamen have taken Fire in the River, and they were both extricated from the Shipping they lay near, and towed to a Part of the River out of the Reach of the Shipping in general, where they burnt to the Water’s Edge without doing any other Damage whatever.

Supposing the same Thing to have happened during an ordinary Frost what then would have been the comparative Danger to the Rest of the Shipping? —There certainly has been Periods during Frost, that a Ship might when on Fire be extricated from the Rest of the Shipping near her. When at the same Time it would have been very diﬁcult, if practicable, to have removed a Ship in a Wet Dock under the same Circumstances, or in the same Situation. Withdrew.

Adjourned to Friday next.