Karen Forschner & Friends
Long History of Bad Doings
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Topic: Divisions in the community
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1504
posted 02 October, 2008 12:36 AM
I would have put this in activism but can't access that part of the site.
I am writing this to provide some background for people who may not be familiar with the long history of contention within the Lyme disease community over federal Lyme legislation, pitting Connecticut's Lyme Disease Foundation (LDF) against New Jersey's Lyme Disease Association (LDA). Patients often feel confused; many are angry over the division. Few know all the details.
LDA first worked with NJ Congressman Chris Smith to introduce Lyme legislation in 1998. This first bill was introduced too close to the end of the congressional session to pass, and did not go anywhere. It was reintroduced the following year. Many Lyme groups across the country supported the bill, with the notable exception of LDF. The current legislation is very similar to Lyme legislation introduced by Congressman Smith in 2001. This was the year the LDF introduced a completely different bill two months later, dividing the community and confusing Congress. No bill passed that year.
In 2005, LDF supported Congresswoman Sue Kelly's (NY) introduction of a Lyme bill just days after LDF director Karen Forschner, in a meeting with LDA's Pat Smith and legislators, had agreed to work on compromise language with LDA. The Kelly bill was a barebones bill which established an advisory committee and nothing else. Although compromise language was eventually worked out, the legislators were very annoyed, and no Lyme bill passed that year either.
Now LDF - again in complete opposition to LDA and many national Lyme groups - is congratulating Health Subcommittee Pallone for not allowing the LDA-sponsored Lyme bill out of his committee for a hearing, claiming that it is "dangerous."
Here we go again.
LDF apparently felt comfortable supporting Kelly's bill with an advisory committee with no requirement for balanced membership, and which placed total reliance on that committee to determine goals and funding. CALDA and other LDA affiliates thought this bill was dangerous. At the time, Forschner's rationale for supporting the Kelly bill was not that the Smith bill was "dangerous," but that the Smith bill "could not pass."
The current LDA-sponsored bills have many specific directives and safeguards to prevent the doomsday predictions made in a recent Forschner email. The legislation reqires balance on the advisory committee. The IDSA strongly opposes the bills because they understand that this legislation threatens their supremacy and allows their rival, ILADS, a seat at the table.
The real danger to patients is that the bill won't pass and we will be subjected to months or years of continuing IDSA tyranny with no new federal funding for research. The bill does not "suggest" or "mandate" any treatment protocol, contrary to statements made by Pallone. The IDSA visited Washington and made sure their views would prevail. They are no doubt delighted to have Forschner's support.
History Repeats Itself
LDF often adopts positions contrary to positions held by the LDA and affiliates. For example, while LDA was in Washington trying to get the FDA to withdraw the LYMErix vaccine, LDF accepted funding from vaccine manufacturer SmithKline Beecham and supported the vaccine until it was about to be withdrawn, then jumped on the bandwagon calling for withdrawal.
Another example was when the Connecticut legislature was considering legislation mandating insurance coverage for treatment of Lyme disease. LDF supported it while some Connecticut activists begged them to "kill the bill." It passed with amendments imposed by the strong insurance lobby that, according to LLMDs, make it more difficult for chronic patients to obtain treatment. Rhode Island advocates, confronted with a similar situation with insurance company opposition, agreed to a sunset provision (the law would die automatically in one year) for their legislation rather than agreeing to a damaging treatment ceiling such as was passed in CT.
More recently, LDF supported the revision of the CDC surveillance criteria proposed by the Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists (CSTE) which created a new category for "suspected" cases. LDA, CALDA and other LDA affiliates and the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) opposed the change, fearing that the new category was a "black hole" where thousands of cases would disappear without a trace, with no accountability. CSTE also restricted the definition of an endemic area, making it more difficult for people to be diagnosed in areas of emerging infection. The LDF wrote to CDC director Julie Gerberding, praising the proposed changes.
In conclusion, Forschner's position on the federal legislation puts LDF right in line with IDSA. Both want to kill the bills. CALDA supports the federal bills and will continue to focus on moving our agenda forward to benefit patients. We encourage you to join LDA, CALDA, Time for Lyme, ILADS, and many other Lyme groups in supporting the federal legislation. Please read the text of the legislation by going to http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas [or below] and if you have questions, feel free to ask. Discussion and debate are healthy. Sabotage is not.
If you are interested in reading in more detail about the conflict over the 2001 bills, go to
http://www.lymedisease.org/lyme_times/issues/lyme_times_archives.html and click on Download Issue under Fall Issue, 2001.
Phyllis Mervine
CALDA
BILL TEXT
Lyme and Tick-Borne Disease Prevention, Education, and Research Act of 2007 (Introduced in House)
HR 741 IH
110th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 741
To provide for the expansion of Federal efforts concerning the prevention, education, treatment, and research activities related to Lyme and other tick-borne diseases, including the establishment of a Tick-Borne Diseases Advisory Committee.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
January 31, 2007
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey (for himself, Mr. STUPAK, Mr. HOLDEN, Mr. GILCHREST, Mr. SHAYS, Mrs. LOWEY, Ms. DELAURO, Ms. BEAN, Mr. LANGEVIN, Mr. BAIRD, Mr. KIRK, Mr. ACKERMAN, Mr. GRIJALVA, and Mr. MCHUGH) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Energy and Commerce
A BILL
To provide for the expansion of Federal efforts concerning the prevention, education, treatment, and research activities related to Lyme and other tick-borne diseases, including the establishment of a Tick-Borne Diseases Advisory Committee.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Lyme and Tick-Borne Disease Prevention, Education, and Research Act of 2007'.
SEC. 2. FINDINGS.
Congress makes the following findings:
(1) Lyme disease is a common but frequently misunderstood illness that, if not caught early and treated properly, can cause serious health problems.
(2) Lyme disease is a bacterial infection that is transmitted by a tick bite. Early signs of infection may include a rash and flu-like symptoms such as fever, muscle aches, headaches, and fatigue.
(3) Although Lyme disease can be treated with antibiotics if caught early, the disease often goes undetected because it mimics other illnesses or may be misdiagnosed. Untreated, Lyme disease can lead to severe heart, neurological, eye, and joint problems because the bacteria can affect many different organs and organ systems.
(4) If an individual with Lyme disease does not receive treatment, such individual can develop severe heart, neurological, eye, and joint problems.
(5) Although Lyme disease accounts for 90 percent of all vector-borne infections in the United States, the ticks that spread Lyme disease also spread other diseases, such as ehrlichiosis, babesiosis, and other strains of Borrelia. All of these diseases in 1 patient makes diagnosis and treatment more difficult.
(6) Studies indicate that the actual number of tick-borne disease cases are approximately 10 times the amount reported.
(7) Persistence of symptomatology in many patients without reliable testing makes treatment of patients more difficult.
SEC. 3. ESTABLISHMENT OF A TICK-BORNE DISEASES ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
(a) Establishment- Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services (referred to in this Act as the `Secretary') shall establish within the Office of the Secretary an advisory committee to be known as the Tick-Borne Diseases Advisory Committee (referred to in this section as the `Committee').
(b) Duties- The Committee shall advise the Secretary and the Assistant Secretary for Health regarding the manner in which such officials can--
(1) ensure interagency coordination and communication and minimize overlap regarding efforts to address tick-borne diseases;
(2) identify opportunities to coordinate efforts with other Federal agencies and private organizations addressing such diseases;
(3) ensure interagency coordination and communication with constituency groups;
(4) ensure that a broad spectrum of scientific viewpoints are represented in public health policy decisions and that information disseminated to the public and physicians is balanced; and
(5) advise relevant Federal agencies on priorities related to the Lyme and tick-borne diseases.
(c) Membership-
(1) APPOINTED MEMBERS-
(A) IN GENERAL- From among individuals who are not officers or employees of the Federal Government, the Secretary shall appoint to the Committee, as voting members, an equal number of individuals from each of the groups described in clauses (i) through (v) of subparagraph (B).
(B) GROUPS- The groups described in this subparagraph include the following:
(i) Scientific community members representing the broad spectrum of viewpoints held within the scientific community related to Lyme and other tick-borne diseases.
(ii) Representatives of tick-borne disease voluntary organizations.
(iii) Health care providers, including at least 1 full-time practicing physician, with relevant experience providing care for individuals with a broad range of acute and chronic tick-borne diseases.
(iv) Patient representatives who are individuals who have been diagnosed with a tick-borne disease or who have had an immediate family member diagnosed with such a disease.
(v) Representatives of State and local health departments and national organizations that represent State and local health professionals.
(C) DIVERSITY- In appointing members under this paragraph, the Secretary shall ensure that such members, as a group, represent a diversity of scientific perspectives relevant to the duties of the Committee.
(2) EX OFFICIO MEMBERS- The Secretary shall designate, as nonvoting, ex officio members of the Committee, representatives overseeing tick-borne disease activities from each of the following Federal agencies:
(A) The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
(B) The National Institutes of Health.
(C) The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality.
(D) The Food and Drug Administration.
(E) The Office of the Assistant Secretary for Health.
(F) Such additional Federal agencies as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
(3) CO-CHAIRPERSONS- The Secretary shall designate the Assistant Secretary of Health as the co-chairperson of the Committee. The appointed members of the Committee shall also elect a public co-chairperson. The public co-chairperson shall serve a 2-year term.
(4) TERM OF APPOINTMENT- The term of service for each member of the Committee appointed under paragraph (1) shall be 4 years.
(5) VACANCY- A vacancy in the membership of the Committee shall be filled in the same manner as the original appointment. Any member appointed to fill a vacancy for an unexpired term shall be appointed for the remainder of that term. Members may serve after the expiration of their terms until their successors have taken office.
(d) Meetings- The Committee shall hold public meetings, except as otherwise determined by the Secretary, after providing notice to the public of such meetings, and shall meet at least twice a year with additional meetings subject to the call of the co-chairpersons. Agenda items with respect to such meetings may be added at the request of the members of the Committee, including the co-chairpersons. Meetings shall be conducted, and records of the proceedings shall be maintained, as required by applicable law and by regulations of the Secretary.
(e) Authorization of Appropriations- For the purpose of carrying out this section, there is authorized to be appropriated $250,000 for each of the fiscal years 2008 through 2011. Amounts appropriated under the preceding sentence shall be used for the expenses and per diem costs incurred by the Committee under this section in accordance with the Federal Advisory Committee Act, except that no voting member of the Committee shall be a permanent salaried employee.
SEC. 4. FEDERAL ACTIVITIES RELATED TO THE DIAGNOSIS, SURVEILLANCE, PREVENTION, AND RESEARCH OF LYME AND OTHER TICK-BORNE DISEASES.
(a) In General- The Secretary, acting as appropriate through the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Director of the National Institutes of Health, the Commissioner of Food and Drugs, and the Director of the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, as well as additional Federal agencies as the Secretary determines to be appropriate, and in consultation with the Tick-Borne Diseases Advisory Committee, shall provide for the coordination of all Federal programs and activities related to Lyme and other tick-borne diseases, including the activities described in paragraphs (1) through (4) of subsection (b).
(b) Activities- The activities described in this subsection are the following:
(1) DEVELOPMENT OF DIAGNOSTIC TESTS- Such activities include--
(A) the development of sensitive and more accurate diagnostic tools and tests, including a direct detection test for Lyme disease capable of distinguishing active infection from past infection;
(B) improving the efficient utilization of diagnostic testing currently available to account for the multiple clinical manifestations of both acute and chronic Lyme disease; and
(C) providing for the timely evaluation of promising emerging diagnostic methods.
(2) SURVEILLANCE AND REPORTING- Such activities include surveillance and reporting of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases--
(A) to accurately determine the prevalence of Lyme and other tick-borne disease;
(B) to evaluate the feasibility of developing a reporting system for the collection of data on physician-diagnosed cases of Lyme disease that do not meet the surveillance criteria of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in order to more accurately gauge disease incidence; and
(C) to evaluate the feasibility of creating a national uniform reporting system including required reporting by laboratories in each State.
(3) PREVENTION- Such activities include--
(A) the provision and promotion of access to a comprehensive, up-to-date clearinghouse of peer-reviewed information on Lyme and other tick-borne disease;
(B) increased public education related to Lyme and other tick-borne diseases through the expansion of the Community Based Education Programs of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to include expansion of information access points to the public;
(C) the creation of a physician education program that includes the full spectrum of scientific research related to Lyme and other tick-borne diseases; and
(D) the sponsoring of scientific conferences on Lyme and other tick-borne diseases, including reporting and consideration of the full spectrum of clinically-based knowledge, with the first of such conferences to be held not later than 24 months after the date of enactment of this Act.
(4) CLINICAL OUTCOMES RESEARCH- Such activities include--
(A) the establishment of epidemiological research objectives to determine the long term course of illness for Lyme disease; and
(B) determination of the effectiveness of different treatment modalities by establishing treatment outcome objectives.
(c) Authorization of Appropriations- For the purposes of carrying out this section, and for the purposes of providing for additional research, prevention, and educational activities for Lyme and other tick-borne diseases, there is authorized to be appropriated $20,000,000 for each of the fiscal years 2008 through 2012. Such authorization is in addition to any other authorization of appropriations available for such purpose.
SEC. 5. REPORTS ON LYME AND OTHER TICK-BORNE DISEASES.
(a) In General- Not later than 18 months after the date of enactment of this Act, and annually thereafter, the Secretary shall submit to Congress a report on the activities carried out under this Act.
(b) Content- Reports under subsection (a) shall contain--
(1) significant activities or developments related to the surveillance, diagnosis, treatment, education, or prevention of Lyme or other tick-borne diseases, including suggestions for further research and education;
(2) a scientifically qualified assessment of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases, including both acute and chronic instances, related to the broad spectrum of empirical evidence of treating physicians, as well as published peer reviewed data, that shall include recommendations for addressing research gaps in diagnosis and treatment of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases and an evaluation of treatment guidelines and their utilization;
(3) progress in the development of accurate diagnostic tools that are more useful in the clinical setting for both acute and chronic disease; and
(4) the promotion of public awareness and physician education initiatives to improve the knowledge of health care providers and the public regarding clinical and surveillance practices for Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
--------------------
Phyllis Mervine
LymeDisease.org
Posts: 1808 | From Ukiah, California, USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1436
posted 02 October, 2008 06:53 AM
Thanks, Phyllis. Having read through the bill, particularly the wording about the makeup of the committee, I feel there are enough checks and balances to ensure that many points of view are represented.
quote:
(C) DIVERSITY- In appointing members {of the Lyme committee} under this paragraph, the Secretary shall ensure that such members, as a group, represent a diversity of scientific perspectives relevant to the duties of the Committee.
So although it is possible that IDSA-affiliated groups might try to dominate the committee, there is a congressional gatekeeper who is answerable to all of us.
I also liked this, under the duties of the committee:
quote:
(4) ensure that a broad spectrum of scientific viewpoints are represented in public health policy decisions and that information disseminated to the public and physicians is balanced
I would encourage everyone to read the bill, not someone's opinion about the bill (including mine!).
Peace,
Sharon
Posts: 1558 | From the Berkshires | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 81
posted 02 October, 2008 10:44 AM
I am sick and tired of the divisions and think it hurts our cause for sure. Since lives depend on breaking the logjam, it behooves all the lyme leaders to find a way to cooperate.
Patients do not want to have to figure out who is right and do all the research themselves. And they find it disheartening and discouraging to see these divisions.
Why doesn't someone hire a professional facilitator and get these parties in the same room to hash out their differences and improve the relationship? There is no room for giant egos and competition which impede progress.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000 | IP: Logged |
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 15323
posted 02 October, 2008 02:22 PM
Thank you for posting this. I have read it and am going to read it again.
I think everyone should read this.
Elizabeth
--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights"
Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008 | IP: Logged |
bettyg
Unregistered
posted 02 October, 2008 11:19 PM
phyllis,
thank you for posting the entire bill; good reminder since it had been a year or more since i last read it all!
thanks also for the background of lda vs. ldf. i didn't know of any of this.
betty
IP: Logged |
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted 03 October, 2008 01:59 AM
Like Phyllis and many others, I am tired of this garbage.
Thank you Phyllis for taking time to set the record straight.
My response is too long to add here.
Since I was addressed personally in the original post, I've replied.
I put my response on another site in Activism since that board is now up and running again.
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=001399
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Posts: 20132 | From The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1504
posted 03 October, 2008 02:09 AM
Lou, you're not the only one who is sick and tired. How do you feel after months and months of hundreds of people doing all sorts of things to try to get the bills passed, including sick people dragging themselves out to protest on the sidewalk outside of Pallone's office, only to have LDF's Karen Forschner congratulate the man for killing the bill!
If nothing else, the sheer gall and lack of respect for other peoples' good-hearted effort is shattering.
I have a whole list of similar stories I hesitate to post, but if you think the leaders can work together, you are delusional. I have been doing this work for almost 20 years now and the story has remained the same! You have to be able to trust people to work with them.
It's time to call a spade a spade and call a halt to these intolerable and destructive activities.
--------------------
Phyllis Mervine
LymeDisease.org
Posts: 1808 | From Ukiah, California, USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1504
posted 03 October, 2008 02:27 AM
I am going to jump over to Activism where more discussion of this topic is ongoing.
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Phyllis Mervine
LymeDisease.org
Posts: 1808 | From Ukiah, California, USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged |
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 7770
posted 03 October, 2008 08:40 AM
But what can WE do to get LDF to lay off? I want to help, but am not as articulate as Tincup.
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"Few of us can do great things, but all of us can do small things with great love". Mother Theresa
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1629665573&ref=name
Posts: 938 | From Northeast Kingdom Vermont | Registered: Aug 2005 | IP: Logged |
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted 03 October, 2008 02:30 PM
Hey hurting...
Thank you.
Your understanding of the situation is more than I could ask for. Really, it is.
A kind word these days goes far.
This problem has been dragging all our efforts down. Much more goes on than we can imagine that is totally negative... and which is a shame.. and is so senseless.
I can't believe some folks make it their goal to get up each day and see who they can burn... and they don't even KNOW them!
I don't know what we can all do to stop the attacks and bad information out there. Sure wish I did.
I can say what I am going to do.
Since working around the boulders shoved in our road isn't working....
And trying to ignore their trash doesn't work either because it is a run-a-muck situation that is totally out of control now...
I am going to confront it head on.
As things pop up as they have been doing for months now, actually years...
I will just get it out in the open.
If there is a legitimate problem we need to DISCUSS it and NOT play games with people's lives. If someone hates me for whatever reason or doesn't get every detail they feel they should have about what folks are doing here and there... fine. They can certainly be unhappy about it.
But that is NO reason to hurt innocent people by trashing the work we are doing to help THEM and many others.
I've thought sincerely about all this garbage... and...
I am not sure why some people and groups feel they aren't being heard... although I also know using the approach they are using is one good reason for folks NOT wanting to listen...
But maybe we should just bring the topic out of the closet and deal with it directly as it occurs.
I had to resort to posting responses and finally address what was going on with the LymeNet Europe situation... after months of trying to ignore the problems they were causing.
I hoped they would grow up, come to their senses, or get a life... but it didn't work. Even LouB booting them off the board didn't help.
They blamed LouB for following through with what needs to be done when folks don't be nice and act up in a hurtful fashion.... and slammed him rather than consider it MIGHT be them that is the problem.
I know some folks were upset when I finally posted replies to their trashing... but they weren't the ones on the hot seat who were being libeled, harassed and trashed for doing nothing more than trying to help others.
When our best people are being bashed (Jones, Burrascano, LLMD's, patient advocates, groups and organizations, etc)...
And any alternative treatments suggested by caring individuals were being slammed by those never bothering to try them...
And our educational efforts were being trashed (books)... and NOTHING was sacred, etc...
What do we do?
As hard as we all work and as much as we need help... it isn't fair to have those doing the work being blasted and smeared with lies and hateful accusations all day and all night.
About 1/3 of my DAILY volunteer hours lately have been spent trying to comfort people getting hurt by these people... trying to explain why they are doing it... which I don't know...
And trying to undo the damage they have done.
Enough is enough.
I have two choices. Either give it all up and let others spend their lives doing all this work for free... or TRY to make our volunteer jobs be more pleasant for all to do.
So rather than letting it brew.. and NEVER being the one to START the problems....
I am going to come back with honest, reasonable responses to the rumors and gossip and negative actions.
Will I sound angry in some of the posts? Yes... probably. Because I am human too.. and no one can take what is being dished out without coming back feeling ugly all the time.
When patients contact me in tears... and doctors are being dissected and eaten alive for all their efforts... I can't help but be VERY angry watching that going on.
And coming from those pretending to be helpful and wanting to "save" the world from bad people... my goodness.
It has to stop.
If patients and groups will also stand up to this stuff, it might help.
I've told folks for a LONG time to just ignore it, for lack of a better solution. In NORMAL circumstances that would be the right thing to do and it would have worked. But after years of trying.. that didn't work.
So if anyone wants to post their feelings... please do. I am pleased at any showing of support for all of the people working hard to make positive changes.
May I suggest... no matter how bad it gets...
Please try to respond by addressing the topic... not the person.
I KNOW that is hard to do when those who have no substance don't give us much in the way of facts and reasons... and it is all slyming attacks just for the fun of it...
But we can try.
We must do something.
How many more years of donating their time can we expect from folks doing this work? How many more years.. heck, days... can those being blasted take it before they throw in the towel, walk away from this mess and just go fishing?
Thanks hurting... your kind words Do help.
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Posts: 20132 | From The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
bettyg
Unregistered
posted 10 October, 2008 12:42 AM
phyllis and tincup,
well said for all the info you 2 have brought her for us all to read for 1st time or as a reminder.
i agree with tincup; address the attacks as they occur.
i've sure missed the board being down so much; i missed the latest on this...
IP: Logged |
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted 02 June, 2019 02:47 AM
Up, because...
TEN YEARS LATER we are STILL having problems with Karen Forscher and others who are listening to her.
They are definately hurting you and our efforts to help you.
--------------------
Posts: 20132 | From The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
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LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Activism » Attempts to kill the bill
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Topic: Attempts to kill the bill
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted 03 October, 2008 01:46 AM
Due to the length of my response to Karen Forschner (and others) posts to kill the bill, I am posting it on its own post.
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The reasons provided by Karen Forschner, encouraging people to take negative actions against our Lyme disease bills, are not based on the bills content, her experience passing successful bills, her knowledge of the actual bill, or her knowledge of the appropriate procedures required to pass a bill.
Her call to action is not supported by the overwhelming majority of patients and groups across the country, as she has claimed.
I am writing in response to this action because I am appalled by efforts to once again destroy what so many patients have worked on for years.
I have received calls and emails from patients and groups with neither the time nor ability to express their views adequately, however, I am not speaking for anyone else. These are my observations and my opinions.
First of All
I am asking that the hateful actions, rumors and the attempts to destroy others projects, stop. Enough is enough. If people in the community can't play well with others, go play elsewhere and stop interfering.
Recognize if you repeatedly attack others without any provocation, you may have an unhealthy obsession (Lyme or not) and get professional help.
As some of you may have noticed recently, I will no longer ignore these vile and senseless attacks anymore. That approach, while seemingly sensible, doesn't work.
Left unchecked, the trashing of innocent people (doctors and patients) working to help the community over the last couple of years has exploded to levels I've never witnessed before.
Like others, I am sick of getting up every day and working myself to death trying to help our cause- as a volunteer no less- while having rocks thrown at me and co-workers by people who don't have a clue what they are doing and who have become troublemakers with obviously nothing better to do than seek out and destroy work done by others.
The Bill and Support For It
The Lyme disease bills (HR-741 and S-1708) were written by members of Congress and their staff- those who are experienced in the legal, medical and political arenas. They support our views and patient's rights.
Case in point- listen to the passion for this bill that is expressed by Wolf/Smith on the floor of Congress this past week.
The Lyme bills have been reviewed and approved by Lyme literate lawyers, accountants, health care professionals, national organizations, doctors, patients and support groups nation wide.
In fact, the LDA, ILADS, CALDA, TFL, numerous LDA affiliates, chapters, as well as numerous independent support groups and individual patients studied this bill and its impact on all of us- and they support it.
There are over 120 organizations/businesses across the country that have publicly signed on to support the bill and many more behind the scenes.
Over 125 Congressmen- the ones who can make a difference for the community- have reviewed the bill and they don't only support it whole-heartedly, they have signed on to cosponsor it (a very impressive number indeed).
Many other Congressional members from across the country have pledged their support for the bill, come time for a vote, including some in the committee where it has been stalled by Pallone.
For the record, those who support the bill are not siding with the IDSA as Forschner claimed.
In addition, you have confused all of us by stating in four different posts that you do support parts of the bills, then you turn around and say you don't, then you state the IDSA does this and that, then they don't, but LDA does that and this, etc.
I am not sure at this point if you even have a set position besides arguing against whatever someone else said.
And I am not sure if you are the only one supporting your position, or is the LDF and all its board members also taking this position?
Or is this part of the Lyme Disease Caucus opinions - which consists of you and: National Capital Lyme Disease Association, Lesley Fein, MD (NJ), Michigan Lyme Disease Association, Greater Hartford Lyme Disease Support & Action Group Lyme Disease Society and the LDF Midwest Task Force?
Bill Work to Date and Why We Are Moving Forward
The arduous job of finding and then educating Congressional representatives who are willing to climb out on a limb to take our side against multiple government agencies and private entities with boat loads of money and power (rare for politicians to do) has been a difficult and time-consuming process.
There are countless phone calls, letters, meetings, presentations, briefings and trips involved with this process- things many of us never see going on in the background and which have spanned over many years.
For the bill efforts and many other projects, I can't express the gratitude I have for the Lyme Disease Association, those associated with them, and specifically Pat Smith, who I first met at a conference a few years back.
I have worked on various LDA projects in the past with her and a number of LDA members. I have the interesting position of having an outside/inside view of what they actually do, which is so much more than I could have ever known.
Without Pat Smith's leadership, organizational skills, non-stop work and sincere passion to help us all, we would have nothing. I mean nothing. She IS the Lyme movement.
I've never known anyone, in the public or private sector who has been as dedicated as Pat is to this cause and who has been able to take a bunch of people scattered across the country, especially chronically ill and disabled patients with all sorts of limitations, and not only bring out the best in them, but make them feel good about what they can do to help our efforts.
Talk about herding cats... she has a full-time job just keeping the community together and continually having outstanding results in whatever projects she takes on.
I honestly don't know of anyone in the Lyme community who has come close to accomplishing what she has managed to do over the years.
I also don't know anyone- doctor, lawyer or Indian Chief- who is as knowledgeable and experienced as Pat Smith in all of the varying aspects of Lyme, including our researchers, scientists and doctors.
She is a jack-of-all-trades and also a master.
I have also been privileged to work with many of her all-volunteer staff and have the deepest respect and appreciation for them and their hard work.
They are getting the job done without a lot of fanfare and jumping up and down.
I am not only very comfortable with the Lyme Disease Association leading the way, I am honored to have Pat Smith and her LDA volunteers working on my behalf.
I trust her judgment on matters that affect my life, my family and our entire community.
Even though we've disagreed on things in the past, when asked to help out, I am ready to jump in and try to do my best FOR THE COMMUNITY, as she has also done.
By the way, when we've disagreed on Lyme related matters, I am not happy to admit it, but she is usually (ok- always) right- which is not so much an endearing quality in my book. ~smile~
Anyhow- after gaining Congressional support and finally having CHRONIC LYME on the big table in DC in the form of this bill, we should be thanking these valuable LDA members, our Congressional members and their health aides rather than suddenly, at the last minute, start kicking up our heels and telling them we don't want their help or need their bill.
To do something so insane leaves Congress and our organizations with the impression that we are truly the ``nut cases'' and ``crazy'' people the IDSA makes us out to be, a misnomer we've worked hard to correct and do not need to be saddled with again.
This current action to try to stop our bill also takes us back in time when this same thing happened and our chances of getting a bill passed were destroyed; not by the IDSA as would be expected, but by a handful of people following the lead of Forschner and company.
It took years for the community to repair the damage these people caused and we really can't afford for this to happen again.
This small group of people have wasted too much of our precious time already. They need to stop the in fighting so more people don't suffer at their hands.
IMPORTANT- Congress must know that we are united in our efforts or they will not deal with ANY of us. Any of us.
They will not throw out this bill because a few people bad-mouth it.
That only serves to annoy them, nothing more. They also will not present a new bill for consideration if this one is eliminated. Why should they? They drafted this bill and want THIS bill.
If somehow someone did get a bill considered by a Congressional member, who would do the years of work it takes to bring it to fruition? I don't know anyone with the skills, experience, energy, money or ability who can accomplish this feat, not even a paid lobbyist or several independent groups working together on it.
And personally, I don't want to be forced to wait for someone else to waste the little time I have foundering around and failing.
I've seen the other bills submitted in the past. They didn't pass at the Congressional level, nor at the state levels where they were also tried.
If a few disgruntled members of our community continue their habit of trashing the LDA, ILADS and others to Congress- like has been happening (yes, I know)- or if Congress gets confused by or annoyed at the mixed messages, they WILL, I repeat, they WILL wipe their hands of the whole Lyme mess and move on to more pressing national issues, leaving ALL of us in their dust.
So I must ask, why would anyone promote something that they know will hurt us? If they don't know it will, they should run, not walk to the nearest exit because they aren't fit to be in a position to lead.
Members of Congress are already disturbed by people contacting them for the purpose of trashing other people and groups in order to promote their own agendas (and some offices have told these people so).
This slamming is not only a dangerous thing to do in such a fragile situation, it is putting lives of innocent people in jeopardy by nixing our chances to get them help.
Bottom line... if anyone interferes with this bill process they will be responsible for hurting the entire community, again, and delaying our access to help by X number of years, assuming we even get another chance.
Our collective goal should be what is best for patients and our doctors. Period.
So listen up. If you've had a beef with someone in the past about a bill or any matter, this is NOT the time to express your dissatisfaction and ``get back'' at him or her. In fact, it is way past time to get over it and focus on putting the welfare of the patients first, rather than promoting your own agenda or carrying out some twisted sort of revengeful act.
Motives
Those who have read Forschner's announcement have asked me.... ``WHAT IS SHE TALKING ABOUT? WHAT IS SHE DOING? IS SHE TRYING TO RUIN THIS FOR ALL OF US?''
In my opinion...
The reasons provided by Forschner to fight the bill are not accurate portrayals of the facts.
They lack substance and continuity and have the classic malevolent attitude, assumptions, opinions and conjectures typically displayed by Forschner thrown in the mix; not to mention insults and digs against others, which I might add, are very unbecoming for someone desiring to be taken seriously.
The attempt here by Forschner, et al, to once again jump in (after most of the work has been accomplished and we are close to reaching our goals) for no other purpose than to disrupt the progress we are making, is not only self-serving and unprofessional, it is inexcusable.
Forschner's ``urgent'' action post has been publicly shared without the blessing of (in fact- to the objection of) the overwhelming majority of support groups and patients across the country; many who are sick themselves and/or have sick children who need help and who are depending on us to work together to make things right.
Threatening to turn the patient's world upside down (Dr. Jones can't help children if the bill is passed? Get real!), while in turn offering nothing substantial or sensible in its place is a heartless move that needs to be taken off the table immediately.
This call for action against the Congressmen's bill is a slap in the face to those who have worked so hard to get our collective voices heard on the floor of Congress.
If anyone sincerely wanted to comment on this bill process or make constructive suggestions for improvement, they have had many years and plenty of opportunities to do so.
Pulling a snake out of the hat and tossing it in the ring at the last minute is typical of what has happened in the past and is very upsetting to people who are depending on help to come their way.
Forschner, author of this ``urgent'' action and/or others she refers to have hurt our combined efforts on numerous occasions and I do not support their actions.
History speaks for itself and their track record has been quite miserable in my opinion. A few questionable actions that don't benefit the community include-
A. The LDF going against the Lyme community and accepting a contract and large sums of money (at least $90,000) from Smith-Klein -the vaccine/drug companies- then attempting to collect another $200,000.00 from the companies after the vaccine was released and many were being injured by it.
B. Repeatedly going against the majority consensus of patients, organizations and doctors in the Lyme community when we should be united. Forschner's June 2007 last minute letter (snake in the ring) to the CDC supporting Feder, the IDSA and the CSTE's proposed change in surveillance criteria was a disaster for us all.
This move is already having extremely negative effects on the reported case numbers, in the very first year of implementation.
I personally spent months researching this topic and wrote a 70-page document explaining why it would be a bad thing to do for the community and the facts were totally ignored by Forschner, et al.
Example of damage- Maryland had over 2,500 reported cases last year. This year the figure has dropped to about 600 cases.
CT had over 3,000 cases last year. This year- zero cases.
So far this year, 36 states have fewer reported cases than last year.
The year before the new criteria was implemented, only six states had figures that were lower than the previous year, with three of those states being lower by only 1 reported case.
Bottom line, we've lost almost 1/2 the total number of cases between last year and this year.
Unless another 10,000 plus cases are reported before the end of December, it will appear to officials the cases have been drastically reduced, that health departments and the IDSA are doing a good job, the non-treating doctors are properly responding to the problems, there are only a few being affected by chronic Lyme disease and Lyme disease isn't an important issue.
If Lyme disease isn't taken seriously by those who ``watch'' and ``need'' the numbers to take actions and who also hold the purse strings, there will be little to no research funding for anyone, nor will there be changes in insurance reimbursement policies, new or more accurate tests on the market, medical board changes in the way they handle charges against our LLMD's, or positive changes in the status quo.
Worse yet, those supporting the new surveillance criteria proposal have done nothing to try to fix the terrible problems they have caused for us.
If they were sincere in their efforts to help patients, they would be feverishly working to reverse the damage they've done.
C. Writing letters to try to force an ILADS doctor (president) to resign his position. This despicable act was done by a handful of people falsely claiming to represent numerous patients who were unaware this was even happening.
It was totally unsuccessful, not to mention, very hurtful to all. It served no purpose, and like this attempt, it wasted valuable time we could have used to work on other projects.
D. The general attitude expressed by some that whenever the LDA and ILADS tries to do something it should be interfered with or destroyed ONLY because it is being done by the LDA and ILADS. is ludicrous.
Bad-mouthing (privately and publically) other support groups, doctors and individuals in an attempt to promote one's own personal agenda is not acceptable and is not in the best interest of anyone.
Notes to Consider About the Bill
After reading the bill- consider the following additional thoughts.
The bill is only one part of the efforts being made for patients. Other efforts are ongoing and will compliment the bill and its goals.
If anyone wonders why these actions are taking place behind the scenes rather than being publicized, they have to look no further than the most recent call by Forschner to kill this bill and the other interferences mentioned above. (That is only ONE reason, of course.)
The same actions must be done when you are dealing with disruptive children. You don't involve them in an important project because you know they don't understand what is going on and they will do all they can to upset the process.
The scientific advisory committee addresses CHRONIC Lyme as a disease, something that has never been accepted by mainstream nor placed on the record.
Having CHRONIC Lyme acknowledged will help people receive treatment for their infections, rather than some ``post-Lyme syndrome''.
Having CHRONIC Lyme officially noticed at the federal level allows it to trickle down to state levels where it can be utilized in future bills, as needed.
Once we have CHRONIC Lyme accepted on the record by way of this federal bill and advisory committee, it will be instrumental in protecting our doctors. It will also assist us with insurances issues.
Those expressing concern that any money attached to the bill will go to the ``government'' or to the IDSA, please note the following.
Remember the Attorney General's action where the IDSA panel was discredited? This was one step in the process of taking care of business. There are more steps in progress that will also address this situation.
If some of the money were to go to the IDSA, so what? They already have billions coming to them via other bills and grants and always have. They don't need this money.
But we do. If 50 percent made it to our researchers that is 50 million we didn't have before.
If you were in charge and were deciding who was to get the money, would you, knowing the IDSA is in BIG trouble, be stupid enough to hand them more money- knowing it will come back to haunt you? And it will.
If worse comes to worse and we get nothing and it all goes only to those with a bad track record, we would just have to hope that some of the research will help us, like we are now doing.
Consider this- how many times have the ``other sides'' studies actually helped us? It does happen.
BTW- any money appropriated by Congress must go to the government agencies and be accounted for at all times. That is the way it is, their rules.
The advisory committee provided for in the bill will be watching the process when our side is represented, which equals another watch dog in place.
I hope this response addresses any concerns others have.
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Posts: 20133 | From The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 7770
posted 03 October, 2008 08:36 AM
Well said. And it NEEDED to be said! Thank you Tincup.
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"Few of us can do great things, but all of us can do small things with great love". Mother Theresa
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1629665573&ref=name
Posts: 938 | From Northeast Kingdom Vermont | Registered: Aug 2005 | IP: Logged |
bettyg
Unregistered
posted 03 October, 2008 05:37 PM
ditto to grandma's comments!
well done tincup!
UNITED WE STAND; PASS OUR LYME BILL! betty
IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1504
posted 04 October, 2008 12:41 AM
This bill is the best we can hope for - not guaranteed insurance coverage of whatever treatment your doctor orders -- wouldn't that be a dream? But it's a good bill. We've been round and round with it for a number of years. It's time we got it passed.
This bill may not be easy to pass, indeed, it has not been easy to pass, but that's because it actually does accomplish something if it were to pass. It makes real changes that would benefit us.
My opinion is that if something is worth doing, it's worth doing well. Let's get this bill passed! If not this year, then next. We are not going away!
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Phyllis Mervine
LymeDisease.org
Posts: 1808 | From Ukiah, California, USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged |
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6543
posted 04 October, 2008 11:49 AM
Just to set the record straight.. The Michigan Lyme Disease Association has not been invloved in the Lyme Disease Caucus in many years. To the best of my knowledge this group has been defunct for 4 years.
TinCup Wrote:
"Or is this part of the Lyme Disease Caucus opinions - which consists of you and: National Capital Lyme Disease Association, Lesley Fein, MD (NJ), Michigan Lyme Disease Association, Greater Hartford Lyme Disease Support & Action Group Lyme Disease Society and the LDF Midwest Task Force?"
Posts: 107 | From Michigan | Registered: Nov 2004 | IP: Logged |
Member
Member # 13828
posted 04 October, 2008 08:08 PM
I am really sick of all the bull that goes on in the Lyme community.
I can see the IDSA, Steere and his cronies, doubling over in laughter because of this crap.
We're doing their work for them aren't we?
The in fighting must stop before anything can be accomplished. Why can't we all come together for a common cause?
I don't know what Karen's motives are. I am an innocent bystander.
However, I think I can understand some of the confusion and mistrust in the Lyme community.
I was witness to the pulling of a bill that was trying to get passed in the state of Florida in, I believe, '05.
I know it was pulled by the leader of one of the national groups because we (the support group I belonged to) were told so by the representative who was working on it.
We were led to believe by a certain party, who we found out later was working with said leader, that it had been "killed" during the legislative process.
Why would this leader do this and then lie? If the bill were weak, why not just come forward and say so?
I think I have every right to know as a disabled chronic Lyme patient and activist, what is going on in my own state as it DIRECTLY affects me!
And furthermore, if I want to stick my two cents in I will, whether anyone likes it or not!!
The day we allow anyone, especially those in power/leaders to be beyond reproach, albeit to have absolute power, will be a very sad and disatrous day.
I am not trying to disparage anyone. I am merely telling the truth.
Posts: 27 | From Tallahassee, FL | Registered: Nov 2007 | IP: Logged |
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted 04 October, 2008 11:06 PM
Hey TB...
Hot enough in sunny Florida for you?
The weather channel seems to think so from what I can tell. Much warmer than up north about now... wish I were there.
Glad you joined LymeNet to post an opinion on this topic.
I heard the same story you are referring to, years ago.
Key words being... "years ago".
You said.. "We were led to believe by a certain party, who we found out later was working with said leader, that it had been "killed" during the legislative process."
The he said, she said, they said stuff is kind of hard to follow... but I assume you aren't happy with what you believe transpired years ago that was told to this or that person and relayed back and forth.
Key word again being, "years ago".
Since we can't change the past....
Can you tell us what is in the bill before Congress now that you object to.... if anything?
Thanks.
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Posts: 20133 | From The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1504
posted 05 October, 2008 12:15 AM
Tallahassee, you aren't actually telling the "truth," you are telling what someone else told you. Now, were THEY telling you the truth or were they just trying to lay the blame on someone else?
I know something about the FL legislation, at least FL HB 1013, 2006-2006, Homan; Lyme Disease/Insurance; cites act as "Lyme Disease Insurance Coverage Act"; provides definitions; requires certain health insurance policies & HMO contracts to provide coverage for Lyme disease diagnosis & treatment; provides applicability for referrals made in accordance with procedures authorized by health insurance policies & HMO contracts, etc. Creates 381.801, 627.64194; amends 641.31. EFFECTIVE DATE: 07/01/2006, if that is the bill you are referring to.
The "national leader" was invited to Florida by Florida activists; the "national leader" would not and did not and could not kill your bill. The national leader - if we are talking about the same person - also does not lie.
I remember talking with a Florida activist who was working on the Homan bill and advising her that they should start with something easy - not insurance, the very hardest kind of bill to pass because of the insurance lobby. And she told me Homan had insisted this was the bill to go with. I thought to myself, either he doesn't want a Lyme bill and is leading her up the primrose path OR he knows something about FL politics that I don't know and that is different from any other state that has tried to pass an insurance bill.
People think that because RI passed a good insurance bill, they should be able to, also. But RI had a very unique situation, with the brother of a Lyme patient being chief of staff to the governor. If any other state has that situation, that is the year to introduce your insurance bill!
So my suspicion is that the Florida insurance bill died a natural death, and you were told a story. You may have been lucky, because if it passed, you would probably have a requirement to consult with an IDSA physician and be limited to 4 weeks of treatment max.
Each state needs to develop strong leadership and then unite behind that one leader to go where you want to go. If you have two competing groups who both want to outshine each other in the same areas, god help you.
Phyllis Mervine
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Phyllis Mervine
LymeDisease.org
Posts: 1808 | From Ukiah, California, USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1504
posted 05 October, 2008 12:17 AM
PS my files and brain are full of this kind of stuff. He who forgets history is doomed to repeat it.
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Phyllis Mervine
LymeDisease.org
Posts: 1808 | From Ukiah, California, USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged |
Member
Member # 13828
posted 05 October, 2008 10:54 AM
This reply is to pmerv.
Regarding the Florida bill, I have some questions.
If the bill was indeed not a good one, why not as I stated in my first post, just come forward and say so?
People would understand.
Why is everything so "cloak and dagger"?
Secondly, why would the rep. and his office lie and place the blame on another?
Also, not everyone agrees that the Rhode Island bill is a good one. In fact, I have heard that it is not and that people still have to go outside the state for treatment and that doctors are still afraid to treat chronic Lyme.
Now, whether or not these statements are "true", they still warrant an honest answer and that is not happening.
That is one of the reasons why some people are not happy with the present national group.
You can't ask for help from people and then not keep them informed or only tell them what you want them to know.
This is the reason, or at least one of the reasons, why we have so much discord in the Lyme community.
The support group I belonged to was one of the ones that had asked for the resignation of Dr. S.
Now, I had no idea this was being done (and neither did most of my group)until it was already done and the repercussions were already in gear.
So, naturally as part of that group, I am guilty by association and I resent that.
I had to chuckle when I was reading Tincup's run down on Karen and the LDF and their alleged sabotaging of other Lyme groups and their efforts, specifically LDA.
I have heard the same thing about LDA.
It's seems to be a case of he said, she said and what makes one person or group more credible than another.
I am not taking sides. I can see good in both groups.
I am simply spouting off my frustration at the lack of unity in this fight as I sit here with achy joints and crippling foot drop.
Posts: 27 | From Tallahassee, FL | Registered: Nov 2007 | IP: Logged |
Member
Member # 11997
posted 24 November, 2008 12:49 PM
For someone who's new at Activism - What's going on? I don't get why anybody would want to thwart any progress, no matter how small, we make toward bringing greater awareness to Lyme.
Is there a Lyme primer for new activists so we can figure out what we're up against within our OWN community? I think I kind of have a handle on what we're up against "out there", but I haven't a clue to what's happening in my own "neighborhood".
Where's Mr. Rogers when you need him?
Posts: 81 | From Iowa | Registered: May 2007 | IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6711
posted 29 November, 2008 02:19 PM
I receive these pro and con e-mails in my inbox constantly. I understand there's two sides to any argument. Generally, I don't pay them much heed.
However, one thing I do pay heed to are all the newbies who contact me needing help because their local GP won't treat them, treat them inadequately, slapped with a misdiagnosis or treated with derision by those entrusted to their care.
Anything and I mean ANYTHING that helps to alleviate this situation is OK in my book. Blumenthal handed us a huge advantage in his investigative findings and to squander it with opinion differences borders on incredulity.
Bottom line, nothing has changed for patients, knowledgable doc's are still persecuted, and mainstream GP's remain blissfully ignorant. Look, change comes in increments and it always comes from the bottom up. Politicians, doctor's will never voluntarily do one damn thing. We have to do it.
In order to win the game you have to get on the field. Their not going to build a new stadium for us. Once engaged in action we have a chance to win. We'll never win watching from the sidelines.
Posts: 1624 | From Northern Wisconsin | Registered: Jan 2005 | IP: Logged |
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted 05 December, 2008 10:50 AM
I have'nt been around lately and don't know what Tinney is sounding off about, but I can imagine
after having to "DEAL" with the "T" word types of folks who have nothing better to do or are
paid to do that kind of inhumane disruption on a website that is here to help! I only know
tincup from this website but I respect tinney and don't really have to know specifically why tincup wrote whatever.
Anyway, like I said I have'nt been around much here in lymenet territory but I can tell you one thing.
If at any time we were to have a lymie ralley all that would show up would be legitimate lyme sufferers.
The folks who cause derision and junk on the website would'nt have the cajone's to
PERSONALLY go to a lyme ralley and spout out junk, because they're all COWARDS!
It's probably a good thing that they are cowards
because as sick as I am....well....YOU can get the picture!
It seems Tinney that your speach was somehow waisted on some of the posters after you.....
In the first place....I've been down here since 01 and I can't for the life of me remember
ANY SUCH FLORIDA BILL OR REFERENDOM!
I CAN remember the Massettchusetts "REFERENDOM" as I recall at this time...
I may be mistaken but I think I recall something out of Rhode Island as well...
but I don't EVER remember a "BILL" going to "CAPITOL HILL" concerning lyme disease accept
for the recent bills that were quoted by tinney above! Which have been there going on two years now....
I did see what WOLF said somewhere...and he did good stuff demanding an investigation and
all....as I remember....so "GO WOLFIE"!
I DID GO to BILLIRAKIS'S office personally back whenever the Mass referendom came out....but nothing was ever done by him or NOW HIS SON!
THIS SON OF HIS IS SO PHONEY HIS EMAIL ADDRESS ON HIS BROCHURE TO ELECT HIM DID'NT EVEN WORK.
Neither did the one on his letter back to me delivered by snail mail!
I have a reply for him and I might as well just go up nineteen and deliver it myself....
cuz I can't seem to get ahold of him on my puter!@
GO TINNEY!
I'm behind ya all the way baby!
zman
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I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman
Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted 02 June, 2019 02:56 AM
Up, because...
TEN YEARS LATER we are STILL having problems with Karen Forscher and others who are listening to her.
They are definately hurting you and our efforts to help you.
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Posts: 20133 | From The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
Link Here
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/8/1399?#000013