interviews_cruachan_1

Music Interview: CRUAHCAN 1

CRUACHAN

English Version:

IRISH MOURNFUL TALE

- Exclusive interview with CRUACHAN

by Glacier & Demogorgon

Done between Jan. – Feb. 2002

Published on the 1st issue of Dragonland Magazine

Comes with a free CD, features a licensed Cruachan track, “Ride On”

As a great example of Irish Pagan Metal, Cruachan released third album Folk-Lore. In a narrow angle, it represent how Irish folk music combine with Metal; in a broad sense, it is a music portal for our touch of Irish culture. Because in this Matter-is-the-first-thing-first age, our youngsters might weep in the seeking of Titanic, but they do not know in which Gaelic tears the instrument for that film score has soaked. Folk-Lore has ten fluent tracks, combined into a whole concept under the banner of special concept of them. Especially “Sons of Uisliu (Uisnach)” and “Children of Lir”, they are two of Three Sorrowful Tales of Ireland. Single ”Ride On” which supported by soul of ex-Pogus - Shane Mac Gowan got great position in Irish music scene…

Ride on, see you

I could never go with you

No matter how I wanted to

The detailed explanation in the booklet brings us great interests of doing interview with brothers John O'Fathaigh and Keith Fay...

1. It's the first time for Chinese people to pay attention to Cruachan who mix Metal and Celtic Music? How did you begin with you own style? I mean, I will feel ridiculous if some bands sing on the stage "We are Vikings", while they are not Vikings at all. But we know that when the time your band was formed, it had become a trend to blend Norse folk tunes in Metal. Our readers are eager to know how you started your first step?

John: We started in 1992 and put simply, we were the first to incorporate Celtic music into metal on this scale, we had heard Skyclad’s first album, how they mixed English folk, and this had a great influence on us although we wanted to do it on a much greater scale. I know what you mean about Viking bands that have no direct links to Viking ancestry, in our case however, we can claim a direct link to our celtic/gaelic ancestry through our families bloodlines. 

2. Ireland is so scarce that we even don't know the Three Sorrowful Tales of Ireland (as you have mentioned two of them in your album). I can feel those three tales are super important, did you choose these as your topic because you have some deep consideration? And is that related to Folk-Lore, the name of the album?

John: The three sorrowful tales of Ireland are just a small part of our wider mythology. Most tales in Irish mythology is to do with battles, heroes etc. but chose to take these 3 mythological tales because they suit the overall theme of the Folk-Lore. Although in the end we never did write the third song about the children of Tuireann. We chose the name folk-lore because on this album the topics covered are historically both old and new, it is our folklore, the story of our people.

3. As you have said, "Personally I like to evoke an awareness of our proud past, but I also revere the Celtic gods for what they stood for in the past. They were the means the people used for understanding the world around themselves, they hadn't the knowledge we do now about the world or even our emotions so obviously the gaps had to be filled with something higher than ourselves and so basically Gods and religion itself was created." Does that mean Cruachan is totally dedicated to Celtic Gods, same as Burzum is dedicated to Odin? Do you think belief is very important to a nation?

John: We hold them in reverance for what they stood for to our people in the past. I think it is important for a nation to understand their past and understand what moral and psychological benefits religion holds for people. People need a higher power to aspire to.

4. Cruachan has a lot of modern rock and traditional Irish music elements, and you use keyboard and recorder's skills, although they are not as many as those skills which were used by traditional musicians who mix modern music and technique into their music. (Hedningarna from Sweden is a good case in point.) Is it proper to claim that your ideology is also strongly related to Rock? Your have your own prominent values and ideals. Do you think yourselves as members of Revival Movement of traditions, both in musical style and the national identification?

John: I know we may not use as many instruments as a traditional band would use but when we write our songs we have to also think about how we'd get by playing the stuff live. We're only a five piece and all of us can't play a traditional instrument at the same time as we've drums to think about and electric guitars etc. and we also don't want to use samplers or triggers which some bands would use instead of playing the songs truly live. We do consider ourselves as revivalists, reviving a very recent form of Celtic music that died out in the 1970's and early 1980's...Celtic rock. 2 bands which have influenced us greatly from this era and genre are Thin Lizzy and Horslips.

5. What's the prime thought about the usage of female vocals and the decrease of instrumental tracks?

Keith: I prefer female vocals to male vocals, simple as that really. We have had a female singer in Cruachan since 1996. There is no intention to do less instrumental tracks, it just turned out like that on folklore, we have many instrumentals that we have never recorded.

6. Folk-Lore is better in sound and product than the Middle Kingdom. Shane MacGowan mast contributed a lot. Since I cannot enter your official and some related website about culture, I lack of information. But I really want to know how you invited the King of contemporary Irish folk music?

John: Our old manager was a friend of Shanes and he let Shane hear the middle kingdom and Shane thought that it was really cool. He wanted to work with us sometime in the future, so when we went to record Folk-lore, he came up to Dublin and booked himself into a hotel at his own expense and helped us in the studio. He played more of a supervisory role than a hands-on one but he put his voice also down on two tracks that were cool.

7. Most of your music and lyrics show a mood of sorrow within a "turbulent past" and tales. Your single "Ride On" gave me a strong solitary feeling, also a sense of remote years. Just like the words you've written in the liner notes: "Many people have given different accounts of its meaning." You must have your original intention. Can you say something more about that?

John: Well, the lyrics for ride-on are non-sensical so as i said many people give different accounts of it, my opinion of it is personally what I feel it's about but at the end of the day, I wasn't the author of the song so it's up to the individual to decipher it. The whole Folk-lore album is a sorrowful album, each song touches on one aspect or other from our own personal histories or the histories and legends of our nation.

8. I've noticed that you are using many traditional instruments. What's your relationship with traditional musicians?

I also noticed that harp wasn't used in Folk-Lore, is there any special reason? When you select instruments, what's the difference of using different instruments to express moods and themes?

John: We listen to a lot of different styles of traditional music, not only irish but scottish, breton etc. we also listen to a lot of traditional musicians on album but if you go to an irish pub and see them actually playing in front of you, it is much better, there is more of a personal feeling and interactive atmosphere. The harp is actually used on one song, ossian's return!!!!

It depends mainly on the song structure and theme, for example,on the song"Sauron" the bazouki is used to set a dark atmosphere even though it's a light sounding instrument.

9. It is uncommon in Extreme Metal scene to write a single, such as "Ride On". Is it because you want to gain more audiences for a noble ideal?

As I consider the name of the song, "To Invoke the Horned God", which is dedicated to Cernnunos, is supposed to have double meanings?

John: To invoke the horned god is really a reference about invoking or bringing back our ancient pagan morals and ideals, so with the likes of ride-on our single, we want to get out to as much people as possible and hopefully we'll be able to spark some interest in their own heritage whether Celtic or not.

10. I feel "Bloody Sunday" focuses on reality much more than others. How do you think of the relationship between Metal and realitism?

John: I think metal is more of an escapist musical style than a realist one. It's very rare that I've heard a metal band singing about the here and now or about political issues...I think metal generally tries to steer away from these topics and focus more on the fantastic or larger than life evil etc.

11. Then can I say it will be more popular in future? But I also notice there are many neo-Metal and Hardcore-Metal crossover Bands are also working on this field. How do you see them?

Keith: If you mean will it become more popular for bands in general to sing about fantasy, I don't really know. It is also important to have diversity in metal, the music would become stagnant if everyone sang about the same stuff.

12. Generally, myths and history are considered the same thing in ancient times. When you "tell the old Celtic myths and legends of your proud past or the tales of hardship and rebellion that Ireland has endured", what's your primary and all most important consideration: To show your reverence for Celtic Gods or to evoke the awareness and proud of Irish nationality for a realistic goal?

John: Personally I like to evoke an awareness of our proud past, but I also revere the Celtic gods for what they stood for in the past. They were the means the people used for understanding the world around them, they hadn't the knowledge we do now about the world or even our emotions so obviously the gaps had to be filled with something higher than ourselves and so basically Gods and religion itself was created.

13. Many Black Metal bands and Pagan Metal bands are being criticized for singing more about fantacy instead of reality. Your development in this subject is very evident from album to album. What do you think of the following bands?

(1) Absu, Melechesh;

(2) Enslaved, Burzum;

(3) Ancient Rites, Danse Macebre...?

(I think they are different levels in showing beliefs.)

John: I like Absu, although very fantasy and pseudo occultist they make good songs.

I've never heard Melechesh.

Enslaved are a really cool viking metal band.

I liked Burzum years ago...I still listen to him but not with as much intensity as before...ideologically unstable though.

Ancient rites are label mates and are a band I respect very much. Gunther seems to share a lot of interests as myself and is extremely interested in world history.

Danse Macabre...this is the brainchild of Gunther also? I really like their new album "'eva'a lot. I'm not sure if they have a fundemental ideological point to get across but are cool nevertheless.

14. "Susie Moran" and the whole album is dedicated to the memory of Susie Moran. "You've gone now to that other place / Your work on earth is done / Jack is waiting there for you / In his arms he holds your son" wish her to live well in Tir Na nOg and you could communicate with her on Samhain night.

On Rhea's Obsession's official website, there are such words, "Long before Christianity bastardized the pagan tradition of living in celebration of nature, this was a time when all - young and old - would acknowledge death without fear." This natural idea about death seems very common within almost all cultures before Christianity. On the other hand, Christianity is attacked by Black Metal bands that it is a "life-denying Death Cult", because that its dogmastic doctrines based on damnation and fear of hell and fear of God. How do you compare these two thoughts?

John: Yes I agree...Christianity controlled people through fear and a fear of eternal damnation if you strayed from the christian doctrine. Paganism and most other pre-christian religions held death as just another incarnation of life in another world. Death was as natural a thing as birth and was not feared. The ancient Celts sometimes went into battle naked which showed how fearless they were of death.

15. In the booklet of compilation-CD, Light in the Dark - Hector Zazon (released in 1998, DETOUR), it says, "Although sacred music existed in Ireland from the earliest times it is not until the coming of Christianity in the fifth century that this genre took on a more definite form as we know it today. The change was a gradual and systematic progression from paganism to Christianity and retained much of the ancient art of creativity. The new religion moved easily into the seams of the old."

What do you think of the impact of Christianity to Ireland? Your band has a quite dark name, is it another kind of light in your eyes?

John: Obviously Christianity had a big impact on Ireland it's a christian country now after all, but, it wasn't a forced take-over. It was a gradual assimilation fom pagan ideals into christian ones. A lot of pagan ideals were taken into what was then known as 'the celtic church'so it wouldn't be too much of a culture shock to the native Irish. Actually, in Ireland they chose to write down our myth's rather than trying to destroy them like in other countries.

Cruachan is the Celtic entrance to the otherworld and when the celts were christianised they demonised it by saying that it was the entrance to hell.

16. As I mentioned about Viking, I mean they are some bands without Viking links(such as some Mid European bands), but claim themselves as Vikings.

Do you think that a band should read more about history before their songs created?

John: Yeah...I feel a lot of people jump onto the band wagon and whatever is trendy at the time they adopt, whether they know anything about Vikings, Celts or whatever. If a band claim they are something and it's obvious that they aren't...it just goes to show how ignorant these people are.

LINKING TO TOLKIEN

1. You told us that Lord of the Rings is one of your most favorite books, and your previous band is also named after one of its cities - Minas Tirith. Can you tell us what is the most fantastic point to you about that GREAT book?

Keith: Its very hard to pick out just one point but the whole book is great. It was the first proper "fantasy" novel, Tolkien created the whole idea of fantasy, orcs, elves etc. and although many people write in his style, no-one has ever beaten him.

2. There is one song in your debut album Tuatha na Gael which called "The Fall of Gondolin", why you put it in an album which central ideal is about Celtic mythology? 

Keith: That song was from the days of "Minas Tirith", we changed the music slightly but kept the lyrics. Although I write mainly about celtic history I have always and will always write some songs about other subjects, such as lord of the rings. The fall of Gondolin is one story taken from the Silmarillion (Tokiens history of middle earth) and it is a story that I have always enjoyed.

3. There is another song called "Sauron" in your single-CD Ride On, is it created in the same way?

Keith: With Sauron I just thought it would be cool to write a song about the bad guy!!

You can see that it is written from the point of view of one of his worshippers, during the war of the ring before he gets destroyed. I really like the song, it is the fastest song I ever wrote, 5 mins for music and about 10 minutes for the lyrics.

4. Do you think J.R.R.Tolkien is also an expert on Galic as on Norse language? 

Keith: Yes, he based a lot of his ideas on celtic culture and history.

5. Could you give us some examples on celtic culture and history, to indicate how he based his ideas on that? We know a little about Runes, but almost know nothing about Gaelic.

Keith: Tolkien obviously used Nordic myths as the main inspiration for Lord of the Rings but it is also obvious that a lot of stuff was taken also from Celtic mythology and Arthurian legend. The elves of Middle Earth are almost exactly like the Gods of the ancient Irish for example, who were the Tuatha de danann. They, like the elves, were immortal and could only be killed by violence. They possesed magical ability and were far superior than man in many ways...even the appearance of the elves are identical to the appearance of the Tuatha de danann...greater stature than man and all are fair to look upon and are lithe but posess great strength. Sauron too was based on an old Celtic God. This was Balor (of the evil eye). Balor was also an adversary of the Tuatha de danann just as Sauron was to the elves and he had an army of hideous creatures just like Sauron's Orcs. Balor had one great eye which had to be opened by levers and a great many of his foul army and when opened, anything which the eye gazed upon withered, burned and died...looks could kill in his case. Merlin from Arthurian legend was also a main inspiration for Gandalf too. Alot of stuff from Tolkiens other books like the Silmarillion have stories which are almost identical or at least inspired by some old Celtic tales. Tolkien basically re-wrote West European mythologies and put them into story form with embelishments of his own.

6. He told us that there is no "message" in this book when being asked, but many people doubt on this. No matter if he uses Middle-Earth as a reflection of our world, he could not avoid of the influence of real world and the time he lived, such a splendor structure and the existence of all its creations could definitely be found count parts in real world. What's your opinion? Whether is this the limitation of number of events or his original thought? Or is just the repeat based on probability?

Keith: There is a wide spread belief that Tolkien based the lord of the rings on the climate of the times he lived in i.e. World War 2. There are some that say the ring is meant to represent the atom bomb. I don't agree however, from the few interviews I have seen with him, he always sounds very sincere when he explains that none of these happenings influenced him.

7. Sorry, I am puzzled? maybe because I was mostly moved by the wonderful descriptions of fascinating Landscape in LotR. So what do you think as his creative motivation? It is undoubtedly that he drew the raw materials from real life, could his work be considered as the reflection of the reality? These days I have heard enough guesswork, but I prefer to draw a negative conclusion. We even have certain ones who see Shadow Host (lives in East) as a reference of the chairman of China!!! Can you believe it?

My last question means to speak out my speculation: can we say, misunderstand is easy to happen just because the readers impose their own thoughts beyond the author’s original creative motivation?  Is it possible that when Tolkien wrote the story, he didn’t even think any bit about reflecting the reality? Or did he write the stories just for fun and entertainment or literary explore while no other information in it? The so-called “proofs” which readers found are crude conjunctions because of the occasional similarity/correspondence of the real affairs and fantasy stories?

Keith: Tolkiens initial dream was to write a mythology for England becuase they have very little of their own. He began work on the Silmarillion firstly. He then wrote "The Hobbit" and has stated in the past that Bilbo is reflection of himself, a lover of nature and not trusting modern technology. A lot of Hobbiton is based on places that where he lived in England, such as Mosely in Birmingham. In some ways he has reflected reality but it is a fantasy novel with fantasy characters and plots.

8. Excuse me if I were wrong, because I only read through such a great book twice. If I were wrong, could you please tell us how these books influence Cruachan (Minath Tirith)? Did it begin from the band formed?

Keith: When I formed Minas Tirith, the sole purpose was to write songs based on Tolkiens world, although I still enjoy this topic, I now prefer to write about other things. There was no dramatic reason why Minas Tirith sang about Tolkien, we just like the books!

9. How do you think of the soundtrack of LotR? I guess it is a bit softer for Enya to do soundtracks for such a "heavy" story... maybe other bands or projects, which draw influence from LotR, are doing better, and can do better, such as Blind Guardian and Summoning.

Keith: No, I thought Enya's song was fine, the main soundtrack during the film was excellent, I couldn?t have asked for better. There is no way I would have liked a metal band to do the music, heavy metal music does not exists in middle earth and it would have spoiled it for me, unless they only used acoustic instruments.

10. But maybe Clannad also could do well too... How do you see other Celtic / Irish Metal bands, such as Waylander, Primordial, Gease... It almost has become another so-called trend...

Keith: Yeah, Clannad in their old days would have been perfect for the lord of the rings.

Although I know the bands you mentioned personally, I think we are all very different to each other. Celtic metal does seem to getting popular, I have heard of celtic metal bands from as far afield as Russia and Brazil.

11. I've seen the band of Jun "Demogorgon" Zhang is trying their best to forge Chinese traditional music with Extreme Metal (basically Black Metal) music, but they do not want to just use guitar to perform the traditional tones. So you know, they meet a lot of difficulties. I feel the way Cruachan do is better than ever - the songs are more flowing through. This can be seen quite clearly by comparing "Tain bo Cuailgue" of Tuatha na Gael and "The Children of Lir" of Folk-Lore. How do you make everything so fluent, forge everything into a unity without feeling uncomfortable, and solve the problem among the different music elements and spirits? I think it is more like a matter of arrangement; could you please be kind enough to disclose some key points to us? :)

Keith: Give away my secrets?....NEVER!! I'm only joking!! Writing with the two forms of music, metal and folk, comes really naturally to me. I always know which metal riff will work best with particular folk parts. I always find it very important to base the metal structure around the root notes of the particular folk part. Other than that I have no real set way of composing music.

12. Cruachan's improvement is so obvious: You are not only more familiar to the studio, but also more mature in the arrangement. The songs are better balanced and you must throw off a lot of stuff, am I right? I am going to say it must be a road as hard as the one Frador went to Amon Amarth!

I know that when we first started we encountered all those problems that you are encountering, for example the tin - whistle, we cannot tune this differently etc. We decided to tune to the key of D and base 70 percent of our stuff around the D tin-whistle, this meant that we were 2 semi-tones lower than concert pitch so we could still maintain a bit of heaviness. As for the chinese folk tunes, it is a totally original idea and I know that Irish folk music and chinese folk music work great together, I always remember when The Chieftans from Ireland played on the great wall with a load of chinese musicians, the mixture was amazing.

It has been some time since we finished this interview. We were informed that the flute, tin-whistle player had not been a part of Cruachan when we were editing this journal / article. “The move came after a meeting between John and Keith about the bands future, the prospect of more and more shows abroad was something that John could not commit to for personal reasons so both brothers agreed that leaving the band was the best thing to do. “Cruachan are looking for a replacement member who can play either flute, violin or keyboard currently, although John will still be involved with the band in the future, maybe as a guest on recordings etc. For other information, you can contact the band at cruachan@ireland.com or check www.cruachan.cjb.net.

Chinese  Version:

爱尔兰的忧伤传说

——CRUACHAN独家专访

Glacier & Demogorgon

爱尔兰异教金属的杰出代表之一，CRUACHAN在去年出版了自己的第三张专辑《民俗》（Folk-Lore）。从比较狭窄的范围来讲，这是爱尔兰民歌与金属成功结合的范例；广义而言，这是我们接触爱尔兰文化的音乐通口。因为在这个物欲横流的时代，广大青少年们可以在呜咽着《泰坦尼克号》沉没的风笛声中哭泣，却不知风靡全球的这所有乐器皆浸淫了多少爱尔兰的忧伤。《民俗》全部十首作品流畅无比，在乐团特有的概念统领下浑然一体，尤其是“Sons of Uisliu (Uisnach)”和“Children of Lir”即描述了爱尔兰三个忧伤传说其中之二。由从前POGUS的灵魂人物Shane Mac Gowan鼎力支持的单曲“Ride On”亦一跃攀升至爱尔兰音乐榜高位……

骑吧，看着你

我永远不可随你而去

不论我有多么向往

专辑内页的详尽诠释引发了我们与乐团兄弟核心John O' Fathaigh与Keith Fay进一步探讨的兴趣……

这将是中国人首次注意到CRUACHAN这支融合金属和凯尔特音乐的乐团。你们如何形成自己的风格的？如果有的乐团自称“我们是维京”，而事实上并非如此，这事十分荒谬。我们都知道你们乐团初创时就已经造成了一种融合凯尔特民歌和金属的趋势。我们的读者们渴望得知你们的第一步是如何展开的？

John：我们建立于1992年，简单地说吧，在这一领域中，我们是第一支把凯尔特音乐融入金属的乐团。我们曾经听过SKYCLAD的第一张专辑，并仔细研究了他们怎样混合英国民歌，这对于我们决定在更大范围内的动作起到了不可忽视的影响。我知道你指的那些本身跟维京血统毫无直接联系的“维京”乐团。而我们的情况是，我们的家庭血统已能证明我们与凯尔特人/盖尔人有着直接的关联。

有关爱尔兰的资料非常缺乏，以致于我们甚至不知道那最著名的三个悲伤传说（在你们的专辑中已经提到了其中的两个）。我能感到那三个故事无比重要，选择它们作为主题有深意吗？这跟专辑的名字《民俗》有关吗？

John：那三个悲伤故事仅仅是我们民族浩如烟海的神话中很小的一部分。爱尔兰神话中很大一部分是关于战争、英雄之类。但是选择这三个故事是因为它们与《民俗》的主题很相衬。尽管最后我们并未创作关于Children of Tuireann的第三个故事的作品。专辑涉及的远近历史，是我们的民间传说，我们自己民众的故事，所以取名为《民俗》。

你曾经说过：“从个人感情上我更愿意唤醒对我们民族过去岁月的自豪感，但我也很敬畏那些在过去曾有所象征的凯尔特众神。他们是民众认知世界的途径。民众不具备我们现有的知识，他们不知道为了排遣情绪才用一种比自己更高的东西来填补，而这正是神和宗教被创造出来的最基本信条。”是不是这就意味着CRUACHAN完全献身于凯尔特众神，正如BURZUM献身于奥丁？你认为对于一个民族来说信仰是十分重要的吗？

John：我们为了过去他们在民众中的象征意义而尊敬他们。我认为对于一个民族，认知自己的过去和道德与精神方面宗教的益处很重要。人们需要渴望一种更高的力量。

CRUACHAN具备多重音乐元素，包括现代摇滚和爱尔兰传统音乐，同时你们使用键盘和录音技巧，但是与传统音乐家们在音乐中加入现代技术还是有所区别的。（例如瑞典的HEDNINGARNA。）能否说你们的理念与摇滚有着坚实的关系？你们有着自己独特的价值与理想。你们是否把自己视为同时承担着音乐风格和民族性的双重复兴运动中的成员？

John：我知道我们使用的乐器并不像一支传统乐团使用的那么多，但当我们在写歌时却也不得不考虑怎么样用它们演出现场。我们只有五个人，每个人，包括鼓手和电吉它手等等，都不可能在同一时间再演奏一种传统乐器。我们并不想像某些乐团那样，用采样器来代替现场演奏。我们确实认为自己是一种新近凯尔特音乐的复兴者，那些音乐是在七十年代至八十年代早期消失的……那个年代在体裁上对我们有着至要影响的两支乐团是THIN LIZZY和HORSLIPS。

对于女声的增加以及器乐曲的减少，你们有什么主要的考虑？

Keith：比起男声，我更倾向于女声，仅仅是因为真实。早在1996年我们就已经在CRUACHAN中有了一个女歌手。器乐曲的减少并非有意为之。事实是，我们在《民俗》中录制了许多我们从来没有录过的乐器。

不论在音乐上还是最后的成品，《民俗》都要胜过《中央帝国》。Shane MacGowan功不可没。因为登录不上你们的官方网站和一些文化上的相关网站，我还欠缺某方面的知识。但我确实非常想知道你们是如何请到当代爱尔兰民歌之王的？

John：我们以前的经理是Shanes的朋友。他让Shanes听了《中央帝国》，Shanes感觉它很棒，也引发了他想在将来和我们合作的念头。所以当我们录制《民俗》的时候，他来到都柏林，自费在一家酒店住下，并且在录音室中为我们提供帮助。很大程度上他是一位制作者而非仅仅是添个帮手。其中有两首歌中录下了他的独特的声音，非常棒。

你们音乐与歌词的大部分蕴藏着一种悲伤的情绪，叙述着那些“风云变幻的过去”和种种传说。单曲“Ride On”（骑在路上）给我一种非常强烈的与世隔绝的感受，让我仿佛感觉着遥远的年代。正如你在专辑内页中写的：“许多人都曾赋予它不同的意义说明。”你们一定有自己原初的涵义。对此可以说点什么吗？

John：好的，“Ride On”的歌词是没有下了定义的，正如我所言，很多人都有着对其不同的描述。我的感觉仅仅是个人在世界末日的一种感觉。我并非歌曲的作者，所以个人都有自己独特的理解。《民俗》整张专辑是非常悲伤的，每首歌都触及一个单独的主题，或是个人的历史，或是民族的历史和传说。

你们运用了许多传统乐器。你们与传统音乐家们的关系如何？我还发现在《民俗》里你们并未用到竖琴，有特别的原因吗？选择不同乐器的对于表达不同的情绪与主题有什么不同的用意？

John：我们听很多不同类型的传统音乐，爱尔兰的、苏格兰的，还有布里托尼的等等。我们也听传统音乐家们的专辑，但是如果你来到爱尔兰的酒馆亲自观看他们的现场演出，那将更加精彩，因为在互动性很强的气氛中个体的感受十分突出。事实上还是有一首歌曲用到了竖琴——“Ossian's Return”！！！

（不同乐器的用意）要视歌曲结构与主题而定。例如，在歌曲“Sauron”中，运用bazouki是为了营造一种黑暗的气氛，尽管事实上那是听上去很阳光的乐器。

在极端金属界中，像“Ride On”这样的单曲毕竟十分罕见。你们是不是想要赢得一批具有崇高理想的听众呢？当我看到献给Cernnunos的“To Invoke the Horned God”的名字，感觉到它也许有双重涵义呢！

John：唤醒长角之神的确可以看作是想唤醒或者带回我们古老的异教道德和理想的参照。所以鉴于每一位在路上的人的真心愿望，我们想要尽可能地使更多的人带入这支队伍，并且希望我们可以点燃人们心中对自己传统的兴趣，不论他是不是凯尔特人。

我感到“Bloody Sunday”比其它歌曲更关注现实。你如何看待金属和现实主义的关系？

John：我认为金属是更倾向属于逃避现实的音乐类型。我很少听说有哪支金属乐团会唱现时现地或政治事件……我认为大体上金属试图远离这些话题，它们的焦点更对准幻想或者高于生活的不幸等等。

将来这是否会变得更流行起来？但是我还注意到一些新金属乐团和硬核金属乐团也在这方面努力，你怎么看待这一现象？

Keith：如果你的意思是说总体上乐团歌唱幻想中的趋势是否会更加流行，我倒真的不太清楚。保持金属音乐的多样性十分重要，如果每个人都唱同样的东西音乐将停滞不前。

总的来说，在远古的时代，神话即历史。你们讲述着凯尔特古老的神话传说，以及在那些令人自豪的岁月中爱尔兰承受的种种苦难与反抗运动，这样做最重要的原因是什么：是想表达对凯尔特众神的敬畏还是出于更现实的目的，即唤起爱尔兰人民的民族自豪感？

John：从个人感情上我更愿意唤醒对我们民族过去岁月的自豪感，但我也很敬畏那些在过去曾有所象征的凯尔特众神。他们是民众认知世界的途径。民众不具备我们现有的知识，他们不知道为了排遣情绪才用一种比自己更高的东西来填补，而这正是神和宗教被创造出来的最基本信条。

黑暗金属乐团和异教金属乐团因为歌唱幻想而非现实而受到指责。在这一主题上你们的进步随着每张新专辑的问世而深入。你们如何看待以下乐团？

(1) ABSU, MELECHESH；

(2) ENSLAVED, BURZUM；

(3) ANCIENT RITES, DANSE MACEBRE。

John：我喜欢ABSU，尽管非常超现实，而且是伪神秘主义者，但他们做出很好的歌。

我从未听过MELECHESH。

ENSLAVED是一支很酷的维京金属乐团。

多年以前我就喜欢BURZUM……现在不像以前听得那么勤了，但还在听……人的喜好总是不那么稳定的。

“Susie Moran”和整张专辑是献给对于Susie Moran的怀念的。“你已经去向那另一个地方/你在这片土地上的工作业已完成/杰克正在那里等你/他的手臂抱着你的儿子”，祝愿她在Tir Na nOg生活愉快，在Samhain之夜晚上你们可以和她交流。

在RHEA'S OBSESSION的官方网站上有许多说法，“在基督教污染这里很久以前，异教传统就把生活在自然中视为一件值得庆贺的事。那时所有的人，不论年轻的还是年长的，大家都不把死亡看作是件可怕的事。”在基督教入主世界之前，几乎所有的文明都对死亡保持自然的态度。另一方面，基督教遭受黑暗金属乐团的攻击，并被称为是“否定生命的死亡之教”，因为他们独断的教条建立在对地狱的诅咒与恐惧上，对上帝亦同样畏惧。你们如何比较这两种看法？

John：是的，我同意……基督教通过恐惧控制民众，如果不信教将遭受永恒的诅咒。异教和基督教之前的其他教派都将死亡看作是生命在另一个世界的另一种形式。死亡跟生命一样是自然的事情，毋需恐惧。远古的凯尔特祖先们有时甚至赤身裸体进入战斗，这恰恰说明了他们对死亡是如何的无所畏惧。

在CD《黑暗中的光-Hector Zazon》（DETOUR唱片公司1998年发行）的内页中有这样一段话，“尽管圣歌很早就已经在爱尔兰存在了，但直到第五世纪基督教的入主才使得这一体裁发展成为今天我们看到的样子。从异教到基督教的变化是逐渐而系统地发生的，并且保留了很多古老艺术中的创造性。新的宗教不废吹灰之力就进入了旧有宗教的裂缝中。”

你认为基督教对爱尔兰的影响何在？你们的乐团有着非常黑暗的名字，在你们的眼中那是否是另外一种光明？

John：很显然基督教对爱尔兰有深刻的影响，毕竟现在这已是个基督教国家了。从异教到基督教的过程并非由外力强加的，而是一个渐变的认同过程。大部分的异教理想被归入“凯尔特教会”，所以对于本土爱尔兰文化来说，那不是太大的震动。事实上，在爱尔兰基督教选择记录下我们的神话，而并非像在其它国家一样去毁灭它们。

CRUACHAN是通向另一个世界的凯尔特入口，当凯尔特人被基督化后他们依靠把它说成是同向地狱的入口将其妖魔化。

当我提到维京，指的是那些跟维京人并无联系的乐团（比如一些中欧乐团），但是他们称自己为维京人。你是否认为一支乐团应该在写歌之前多读点历史？

John：是的……我感到有许多人只是跟着时下流行的趋势就随便跳上了乐团演出的马车，而至于是维京，凯尔特还是其他什么，他们并不在乎。如果一支乐团称自己是什么而实际上他们并非如此……只不过是表明了他们的无知罢了。

关于和托尔金的联系

你告诉我们《魔戒》是你们最喜爱的书之一。而且你们的第一支乐团——MINUS TIRITH（米纳斯·蒂里斯），即以书中的一个城市命名。可以跟我们说说对你们而言那本巨著最闪亮的地方在哪里吗？

Keith：很难说是哪一点比较精彩，事实是整本书都非常杰出。这是第一本真正意义上的幻想小说，托尔金完全创造了一个幻想的世界，奥克斯，小精灵等等。虽然也有很多后继者效仿，但没有人能超过他。

在你们的专辑Tuatha na Gael中有一首歌叫做“The Fall of Gondolin（刚多林的陷落）”，为什么你们把它放在一张以凯尔特神话为中心思想的专辑里呢？

Keith：那首歌是我们还是MINAS TIRITH时写的，音乐做了少量改动，歌词没变。我的大部分歌曲是关于凯尔特历史的，不过我出会写些其它主题的歌曲，像是《魔戒》。“刚多林的堕落”取自《西奥麦里昂》（托尔金所写的关于中洲的历史），我一直都很喜欢。 

在“Ride On”的单曲CD中有一首歌叫做“Sauron”，是用同样的方法创作的吗？

Keith：这个嘛，其实我只是觉得写一首关于那个坏蛋的歌实在是太酷了，所以就这么做了！

你可以看出它是从他的一个崇拜者的角度写的，在他遭受毁灭前的魔戒大战期间。我真的很喜欢这首歌。这是我写作时间最短的歌曲之一，五分钟写调子，十分钟完成歌词。

你认同托尔金是一名挪威语专家以外，同时也是盖尔专家吗？

Keith：是的，他的很多想法都建立在凯尔特文化和历史的基础上。

可以举些例子说明他是怎样将想法建立在凯尔特文化和历史的基础上的吗？我们只知道关于罗纳文很少的事，对于盖里语则一无所知。

Keith：托尔金显然以北欧的神话作为《魔戒》故事的主要灵感来源，当然也有相当一部分取材于凯尔特神话和雅典传说。例如，中洲的小精灵几乎就是古爱尔兰神Tuatha de danann的对应。他们是永生的神仙，只能被暴力杀死。他们拥有魔法的力量，并且在很多地方都比人类优越……他们的外表看起来跟Tuatha de danann一样……他们身材比人类高出许多，皮肤白皙，头发金黄，身体柔软，但是有很强的力量。索隆的原型也是一位古爱尔兰神，即Balor（恶眼）。Balor是Tuatha de danann的敌人，而且拥有一支由丑陋的生物组成的军队；正如小精灵的敌人索隆有一支军队叫做奥克斯。Balor有一只巨眼，目光及处，物皆遭秧，或枯萎，或被焚，或灭绝，这即是毁灭的力量。如《西奥麦里昂》一样，托尔金的多部小说都有大量内容或与古凯尔特传说近乎相同，或取材于此。基本上，托尔金重写了西欧的神话并以自己的方式美化了这些故事。

当被问到书中是否隐藏着一些“讯息”时，托尔金总是否认，但是很多人都对此存有疑问。不论他是否以中洲象征我们的世界，他不可避免他所生活的真实世界的影响，如此绝妙的结构和所有被创造出来的一切都可以在现实世界中找到对应物。你的看法如何？这是对他原创想法的局限还是基于概率的重复？

Keith：有一种很流行的观点，认为托尔金《魔戒》的故事很大程度上以他生活的二战为背景。还有人说戒指代表了原子弹。但我并不这么认为，从我看到的不多几次对他的采访中我感到，当他解释现实发生的事情丝毫没有影响到他时，他的口气十分真诚。

对不起，我有点困惑……也许是因为《魔戒》里最打动我的是对缤纷的场景的精彩描写的缘故，你认为托尔金的创作动机是什么呢？他从现实中汲取素材是不争的事实，那么他的作品是否是现实的映射呢？这些天我听到了太多的猜测，不过我更倾向于得出一个消极的结论。

我最后一个问题是想说出我的猜测：读者是否一贯因为自己的想法而对作者的创作本意加以推测而很易产生误解？托尔金是否有可能在创作时根本没有想到要去对现实有所反映，他是否有可能只是为了单纯的娱乐和文学探索而根本不带任何其它信息？读者们找到的种种“证据”只不过是因为真实事件和幻想故事间偶然的相近/似而生搬硬套？

Keith：托尔金最初的梦想只是想写一部英格兰的神话，因为他们自己的神话很少。他首先写了《西奥麦里昂》，然后写了《霍比特人》。他过去曾说毕尔博是他自己形象的反映，热爱大自然，并且反对现代科技。霍比特人的故事大多数建立在他生活的英格兰的基础上，例如伯明翰的Mosely。在某种程度上他的确是反映了现实，但毕竟是一部有着幻想人物和场景的幻想小说。

如果我说错了什么要请你谅解，因为这本巨著我只读过两次。那么这本书是如何影响了CRUACHAN (MINATH TIRITH)的呢？是不是从乐团成立之初就开始了？

Keith：成立MINAS TIRITH之初唯一的目的是写关于托尔金世界的歌。虽然我非常醉心于这一主题，但现在我也写些其它的主题。MINAS TIRITH歌唱托尔金写的故事没什么特别戏剧化的原因，仅仅出于个人喜好！

你认为《魔戒》的电影配乐怎么样？我觉得这么一个“重”的故事由恩雅来配乐稍显“软”了点……也许有其他受《魔戒》影响的乐团或乐团现在就做得更好，也将会做得更好，例如BLIND GUARDIAN和SUMMONING。

Keith：不，我认为恩雅做的很好。配乐主旋律很精彩，我无法想像更好是什么样子了。更不可想象由一支金属乐团来配乐会是什么样子，重金属音乐在中洲并不存在。如果那样的话，我会觉得很糟糕，除非他们只用原声乐器演奏。

但是也许CLANNAD也可以做得很好……你如何看待其他凯尔特/爱尔兰金属乐团，例如WAYLANDER，PRIMORDIAL，GEASE……几乎已经变成另一个所谓的潮流了……

Keith：是的，如果是以前的CLANNAD为《魔戒》配乐也会十分完美。

虽然我个人也知道你提到的那些乐团，但我想我们相互之间都很不一样。凯尔特金属看上去确实在变得流行起来，我还听说他们已经流传到了俄罗斯和巴西那么遥远的地方。

我曾与Demogorgon的乐团在一起交流过，发现他们正在设法把中国传统音乐与极端金属音乐融合在一起（主要是黑暗金属），但是他们并不想仅仅用吉它演奏传统音乐的曲调。所以你应该可以想到，他们遇到了很多困难。我感觉得到CRUACHAN现在做的比以前任何时候都好，歌曲更为流畅。只要比较Tuatha na Gael的“Tain bo Cuailgue”和《民俗》的“The Children of Lir”就可以很清楚的得出这个结论。一切是如此的流畅，你们是如何做到的？融铸各种各样的材料成为一个整体而且毫无不适，并使不同的音乐元素和精神可以和谐并存，到底有何诀窍？我想应该是编曲上的技巧吧……

Keith：公布我的秘密？……决不！开个玩笑啦！同时操作金属和民歌两种类型对我而言十分自然。我从来就知道哪些金属元素和民歌元素在一起可以取得更好的效果。有一点很重要，就是以金属为结构，但根源在某些特殊的民歌部分。除那以外我还没有一套真正的音乐创作模式。

CRUACHAN的进步是如此显著。你们不仅仅熟悉了录音棚的一切，而且在编曲上更为成熟。为保持歌曲的平衡你们必须丢掉一些东西，是吗？我会说这就像弗罗多前赴厄运山口之路一样艰辛！

Keith：我们最初也曾遇到你们现在遇到的同样的问题，以锡哨为例，我们不可能给它定别的调等等。我们决定把它定在D调上，把我们70%以上的素材围绕着D调锡哨构建，这就意味着我们比标准音高降了两个半音，所以我们才能仍然保持一些重量的感觉。中国民歌的调子完全是原创的，而且我知道爱尔兰民歌和中国民歌可以很好地融合在一起。我还记得当爱尔兰的CHIEFTAINS（酋长）在长城上面和许多中国音乐家一起演出时，结果真惊人。

距离这篇采访完成已经有一段时间了，就在我们整理它的时候，传来笛子、锡哨演奏者John O' Fathaigh不再参与CRUACHAN的消息。他和Keith一起就乐团愈发海外的发展方向商谈之后，出于个人原因不会再去承担这一重任。CRUACHAN现正在寻找新的队员，尽管未来John应该还会继续参与乐团的录音。限量五百套的三张LP套装《凯尔特三部曲》（A Celtic Trilogy）刚刚面市，其它消息则可以通过cruachan@ireland.com和http://cruachan.metalfan.nl/cruachan_main.htm得到。

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