AVERSE SEFIRA

Music Interview: AVERSE SEFIRA

English Version:

In the center of the Earth, there is a grand Iron city enclosed in gloomy Flames, which is made of Black Metal! The crackle of burning walls is a call to your spirit. Inner strength and black flame cohere, we should notice this rising black star!

BATTLE’S CLARION, CALL TO SPIRIT 

- Exclusive interview with AVERSE SEFIRA by Demogorgon

Done between Feb. – Jul. 2002

Published on the 1st issue of Dragonland Magazine

Official website: DRAGONLAND

Comes with a free CD, features a licensed Averse Sefira track,

“The Nascent Ones (The Age of Geburah)”

By the end of 1991, one of USBM elites - Averse Sefira had released Battle's Clarion, their second album. Compared to their debut Homecoming’s March, seven featured tracks more fluent and intelligence. Condensed length of songs bring incessant darkness waves. Drummer The Carcass comes with a bit of restless invasion from Death Metal. With respect in my heart, I talked a lot with bassist/vocalist Wrath Sathariel Diabolus and guitarist/vocalist Sanguine Asmodel Nocturne. Abstruse. Incisive words will make you learn it is how difficult for one to comprehend your spirit and look squarely at his/her own advantage and disadvantage… and it should be cherished once achieved.

The first thing impressed me is your band name. Could you give our readers a clearer explanation at first? 

Wrath: Averse Sefira is derived from the QBLH. It is in our minds the expression of a pure evil in the heavenly host. What purer evil than one that is of Elysium?

Sanguine: Averse Sefira means Opposition, Nihilism, Conviction, Detonation, the Highest of Principles and the Execution of Will. 

We know many Black Metallers are atheists. Do you believe in the existence of God (the one written in Bible) and is it the same one as most mysterists' thoughts?

Sanguine: Not the "goD" of the bible. "goD" is useful providing imagery and axioms to twist and turn against the sheep. Beyond that, "he" is the progenitor of the plague called "Faith." A rank and foul disease, passed by blood and memes, infecting 99% of the Western population. There are those that would not count themselves amongst the 1% untouched by "Faith," but their ideals and notions of equality and democracy belie the corruption that they carry. Everyone here is a potential vector for this insidious agent.

Wrath: goD is a construct of man. How else could anything so perfectly divine be so easily understood by mankind? goD and Jesus (in American culture) are the names people give to a part of themselves for a way to assuage the questions of their lives and the fear of death. We are not strictly atheists, as we worship the divinity within ourselves. This is the way of a strong mind and a brave heart.

Havohej，Krieg，Kult ov Azael，Judas Iscariot，Demonacy… USBM. Hailed as one of its greatest pioneers, Texas’ Averse Sefira use music to behold the mighty sound while open seas boiled by the winds: tense riffs, complex changes, balanced power and dark fierce. But the distinguished themes caught my attention more. Kabbalah is a very popular subject in the scene underground, although it is not familiar to normal Black Metallers. Bands with strong cultural and literature background and use music to express (preach and exercise) their thoughts are always my favorites. In my eyes, they are true and faithful to their belief and will. Then we come to the point, how do you choose Jewish mysticisms as Averse Sefira's main subject? Someone see you as the Chosen One, see Black Metal as a part of Judaism or Christianity – just because the using of words like “god”, “Satan”. What's your reaction? Does your choice have something to do with the great control power in modern western society? 

Wrath: The Kabballah (QBLH) is not the sole theme of Averse Sefira by any means. It is merely one of many esoteric systems by which we craft our own mythos. I never like this attribution as it tends to imply that our band has some kind of involvement with Judaic faith, and this is of course untrue. We also borrow ideas presented in the Old Testament, but this does not make us christians. There are many ideas presented in the archaic faiths that fire the imagination and give rise to interesting questions, but Averse Sefira will never subscribe to any one system of beliefs. The Sefiroth were borne unto the cosmos long before man and their religions, thus we are as they and beyond the shackles of such simple paradigms.

Wrath: It may be a question of working within the confines of what one learns from birth. I was raised with the concept of goD and Satan- indelible polar opposites in the fight for the mortal soul. Averse Sefira stands for rejecting such easy constructs. We acknowledge the christian god only as a failsafe for the frail-minded. Satan in turn serves as a symbol of coercion and terror which helps maintain the Christian agenda through threat of consequence. With these ideas in mind, our band strives to dismiss the masquerade. We portray god as a lost idea, at best an insane and loveless being in accordance with how man devised him.

Do you believe the hidden God is not the Creator, like Gnostic belief?

Sanguine: The Q'aballah availed itself to be a useful set of aesthetics and trappings with which to present Averse Sefira. It has proven to be an excellent beacon, easily recognizable to those practicing various Paths and practices of the Occult. Those studied in Western Magick and Thelema pick up on the obvious, the use of titles and allusions to things like the Tree of Life, while there are others that are keen to the layers and deeper levels within our presentation. We did not choose Jewish mysticism for any religious or personal preferences beyond the potential uses as an abstracted palette for language, textures and as a weapon to be turned against itself and its creator. We do not acknowledge any gods, hidden or otherwise. There is homage given to Nature, the great ordered chaos that dominates the planet. There is homage given to the consistency of Man to be like the monkeys they evolved from and the short, brutish lives they cling desperately to. They are content to paint themselves with their own feces.

Have you studied Taoism? Since the core ideal of it is to keep harmony with the Nature too, I think it is necessary for us to say something about it here.

Wrath: Admittedly my knowledge of Taoism is limited. However, the idea of time being cyclical is something we address constantly in our lyrics. That and the attention to “ch’i” as the center of the individual persona is something that makes sense to us. However, you will not likely see a yin-yang on any Averse Sefira material anytime soon. Taoism is a very meditative philisophy and it runs in strict opposition to the fire and chaos within Sanguine and myself.

"That cult would never die until the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild, and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and reveling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom."

- H. P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu", 1926

It seems everything are bonded in a certain kind of circle – just have a look at color, clothes, fashion, music… all the mainstream, you will draw this conclusion. And it seems these subjects underground are the same: when Heavy Metal became too expose to sunlight, Death Metal was born, but those ones who do not like the anti-aesthetic attitude created Black Metal and Symphonic Metal lately. Currently Black Death Metal bands even changed the primal ideology of Death Metal while Gore Death Metal bands continue to march on the road made of blood and guts…Do you believe that it is "true" and "good" to return humanity to its primal origins?

Wrath: I must admit with the poor health of the world economy, terrorist threats, and endless foreign wars in our midst, I am excited at the prospect of “going back to zero”. Many large, greedy corporations are on the brink of bankruptcy and disaster in America. I hope they all fail spectacularly. I want to see our country return to a standard where we were not merely consumers and corporate imperialists worldwide. I very much wish this country could start over and try again. We haven’t learned anything in the time we’ve had. We are dangerous, stupid, and worst of all, powerful. Primal origins wouldn’t be the answer, but the “old ways” are definitely needed again, whatever they may be. Bring back the samurai!

If the only goal is to "Do What Thou Wilt", do you think it is different far from DIY?

Wrath: That concept is open-ended. Does this mean you will act within the confines of your own interests, or do no rules apply at all? Are issues like murder no longer a consideration? To derive the ultimate meaning of this idea means to return humanity to its primal origins where survival becomes the only priority. I firmly believe that without some inherent framework and yes, even some rules to break, none of the higher aspects of humanity can be explored or accomplished.

Shall we break them ASAP? Is your "inherent framework" equal to "Humanity"?

Wrath: No, this framework is equal to codes and standards, though not necessarily the ones imposed by the powers that be. When this is the only law, people will find themselves run over by tanks before they know it. And not all rules can be broken or changed all at once. The reason I do not agree with “Do what thou wilt” as a sigular ideal is that it is simple and open-ended; a bit too convenient for my reckoning. Hedonism is usually the product of this maxim, and I prefer a recognizable balance of order and chaos. Hmmmm.... perhaps a yin-yang is in Averse Sefira’s future after all!

As the high-speed changing of the world and the growing feeling of crisis，I guess everyone is mesmerized by the world and begin to doubt his / her own feeling about reality more and more. We are definitely among the ones who do not want to change our viewpoint, How do you define "Truth"? Who can prove?

Wrath: I do not so much worry about truth as I do belief. I have needs, wants, and goals. As I see it these are my truths. Such a subjective and existentialist concept cannot be adeqautely addressed or properly interpreted outside of one’s own mind. This is why metal music forges brotherhoods- it unites those who follow self-defined truths in common.

"He who refuses to take part in modern mediocrity will forever stand alone, an outcast. He is the bringer of change, changes that instill fear in all who go with fashion's flow. Their power comes from others, not from within. They are false! Woe unto them for the bringers of change have banded together. The time is now! We cannot be stopped! We are riding up, riding hard on the will of the people. The battle rages - Choose your side. DEATH TO FALSE METAL. Forever Fighting the World."

- Manowar, Liner notes of Fighting the World, 1987

As everyone has his own thought and will to do so much for the one he loves (hates), I doubt if there will ever be a single standard. Does one have the rights to "Let my thought never change" base on "Do What Thou Wilt"? I find we all in a world of cycling Labyrinth and there are almost no exits in sight... Just like I enjoy Manowar and hope myself to love them till Death, I still cannot promise there will not be "Natural" changes in my mind. I am going to say not all natural things are my favorites; I stand on the opposite side of Changes at some time. Then, do you see Changes as a part of Humanity?

Wrath: Change, transformation, chaos, doubt, discovery, transgression, acceptance, assimilation- this is the way of the virus called humanity. Unless one chooses to live in isolation or decides to deny his/her own changing needs and preferences, there is no way to resist change as life progresses. This is a gradual process of course- we reinvent ourselves in small increments with every breath. It is acceptable to lose small pieces to make way for others. But to lose complete sight of ideas and core beliefs is a betrayal of the mind. Again, balance is needed and it seems that nature ensures this.

Do you think if "Do What Thou Wilt" has something to do with that there is not a considerable Black Metal movement in US in the past years? In another word, can you share your thought why the Black Metal movement reached such a high stage in Europe first?

Wrath: Regarding the US Black Metal movement versus Europe, I think it becomes a cultural issue. Europeans have thousands of years of history at their disposal- the live amidst it. Here they have cultural benchmarks and an identity unique to anywhere else in the world. Combine this with the homogenous societal models common in European nations, and the dissident artistic minds will ultimately be driven to produce heretical music with merit and conviction. In America, we have no cultural basis, nothing to inspire or guide us. We are undisciplined and spoiled, and thus very few of us are interested or capable of making such dire or passionate music.

But bands like Averse Sefira have already to do, and successful – even using a topic deep as Kabbalah in music, which is entertainment above all in many people's opinion, they think it's narrow. Does it really limit your listeners? How do you think those musicians/fans who don't take ideology seriously and don't care about the lyrics? Do you feel if it is ok for them, just go to concerts, buy CDs, be headbangers or etc.?

Sanguine: The listener is only as narrow as they naturally are. To view this as entertainment is to be less than serious. This is defiance of and an embrace of the Void. To cast off shields and run freely and with glad heart towards Death and to thereby defeat are steps taken closer towards divinity and the death of the divine.

In the eyes of mortals, this may be a tragedy at last... We will be alone always. Is it really ok for them, just go to concerts, buy CDs, be headbangers or etc.?

Sanguine: If that is all they want to do, if they desire to contribute nothing of value, if they desire nothing else than to shovel fuel, being money, into the great engine of Capitalism, then no, that is not "ok." That kind of attitude is bringing, has brought this music and ideology down to the depths of "rock" music. Everyone is NOT equal, everyone's voice does NOT matter. Those with Will and Conviction are the ones that will salvage Metal or will put it out of its misery.

I do agree with you concerning this matter, our beloved Metal cannot be equaled to Rock! We have our own standard of value, life attitude, not equal to Rock!! What's your standard for "Good" song?

Wrath: My standard for a good song is one I would enjoy hearing if another band had written it. We write music we want to hear, it is made primarily for ourselves and therefore it is much more genuine. The fact that it pleases others is merely a lucky coincidence.

Sanguine: Something that is distinctive, clear in vision and conception that is unified as a whole and functions seamlessly.

Shall all aspects, such as lyrics, music, makeup... have a central ideal?

Sanguine: Of course, but such are the foundations of Averse Sefira. Unification of muse is key to all the locks of creation. Without and within the gates will fall and there will be joy and strife unending for those caught in the storms.

We almost can feel the atmosphere created by its music from the cover of Battle’s Clarion immediately. An underground iron city with dark grandiosity fits for the whole idea more in detail than the ruin of a temple on Homecoming’s March – it seems that we are gazing at a temple which is about to collapse.

Sanguine: All aspects of Averse Sefira are interconnected and consanguineous. The paint is the visage of tormented Humanity and Divinity, scourged by the plague of "Faith", the artwork are representations of things untouched in song, the lyrics are all individual pieces of a great narrative lineage that will unfold when it has completed its incubation. Averse Sefira cannot be without such a weaving.

Wrath: Regarding imagery, as you see we attach significance to every part of our presentation. The music cannot truly exist without the imagery and vice versa. This is one of the ideals upon which Black Metal was founded, and too many bands are forgetting this. Some people like to argue this point and claim a band such as we are “posers” for adopting and adhering to the battle standard. My response is that if they feel these elements are unnecessary, then they should go play Death Metal and leave Black Metal to bands who are brave enough to hold the banner high.

You and Sanguine both use typical Black Metal icons: spikes, makeup, pseudonyms etc. it seems The Carcass doesn't totally into them. Do you think to find someone who fully understands what you are trying to achieve in the band, in your sound and your imagery etc. is very important?

Sanguine: The Carcass is a miraculous being, whose contributions are beyond measure. All that we display outwardly, he has ten thousand fold on the inside of his great vessel. It is paramount that someone have full understanding and syncopation with what Averse Sefira is about and is trying to achieve.

Wrath: The Carcass is on a different plane than Sanguine and myself, though his contribution is no less valid. He is widely regarded as a genius player, and thus he has earned the right to present as he wishes. This is why his name is not derived from the QBLH as ours. I feel it would be worse to force the paint and spikes upon him when he does not feel this need himself. It would look unconvincing and we would rather present ourselves honestly. In any case, this decision does not affect the quality of our performances.

I always see the imagery and the artistic side of the band is just as important as the music. It isn't what Death Metal bands normally like...Many Black Metal and Pagan Metal bands are becoming more and more philosophical while many Gore Death Metal bands are approaching towards aggression. We can see this clearly when comparing the latest movement of Enslaved and Exhumed. What's your opinion on the matter of a band's direction? 

Wrath: There is not too much to say about gore metal as far as movement. It is a simple concept designed for entertainment, and I doubt the bands involved would deny this. There is nothing wrong with that, but it seems like there is little room for musical or conceptual growth; some bands are philosophical in Black Metal, some are not. Enslaved is a bad example in that their only philosophy seems to be about appealing to a larger audience. Averse Sefira reflects a more philosophical vantage point, though to what degree this shines through depends upon the listener’s perception.

Sanguine: As long as a band remains internally consistent with the precepts it was founded upon, then however it "progresses" will be acceptable. When a band diverts sharply and alarmingly from its foundations, then it is time to change the name. Bands cannot stay the same, just as people are unable to remain static from moment to moment, such is the Nature and Chaos of Being. Radical changes are a different matter. Diversions of greater than 23º are expressions of discontent and weakness from within. That is the time to embrace Death. 

Your words remind me Emperor and their later band Zyklone. As I mentioned before, we might stand here alone. In the world of human being, how could there be most ones to listen to our music and words?? For example, you mentioned a larger listeners' group on the above question. It is true that many bands tried their best to get more followers, but at last they just changed their listeners. Some get bigger ones, some get smaller ones. But we all know, the founding of every music communities all needs some listeners (fans). Since many Black Metal bands (in my opinion including Averse Sefira) have a common LaVey-istic view on this point: let people do what they want. So the anger of Garm in Lords of Chaos is meaningful, "But what is behind Black Metal 'ideology'? The source of Black Metal is Venom: beer-drinking, base-minded rabble, icons of Heavy Metal idiocy. The essence of Black Metal is Heavy Metal culture, not Satanic philosophy. Just look at our audience: the average Black Metal record buyer is a stereotypical loser: a good-at-nothing who was teased as a child, got bad grades at school, lives on social welfare and seeks compensation for his inferiority complexes and lack of identity by feeling part of an exclusive gang of outcasts uniting against a society which has turned them down. And with Heavy Metal as a cultural and intellectual foundation, these depends on social altruism proclaim themselves the 'elite'! Hah! Could it be more pathetic?" (pg. 199) 

Wrath: Hmmm… strong words coming from a former Black Metal maven turned “trip-hop” enthusiast. Perhaps he was describing that which he loathed in himself? I do agree there is an undercurrent of useless people in the metal community. They are the proletariat, or in our hierarchy, the fans. They are a necessary part of the model. Anyone who doesn’t want adoration from beer-drinking, base minded rabble should choose another musical genre in which to excel.

Wrath: Averse Sefira is not Laveyan to be clear; free will as a way of life was NOT an idea invented by Lavey! When a band becomes worried about who comprises its peripheral audience (and I say this because I feel we demand more of our fans intellectually) then they stop being a musical entity and turn into a commercial product. This is not our goal, and thus we do not make this a consideration. 

Yes, perhaps this is why Garm choose another music category as his way to move. Lords of Chaos was published in 1998, I still love La Masquesrade Infernale of Arcturus, especially "The Throne of Tragedy", which presents a quite unique destiny: Do you believe your enemy were defeated by your hand? The truth is not like this…it is you who was left in an isolated place! Do you mean Averse Sefira will limit your audience in Metal music? 

Wrath: Averse Sefira merely is. We are Black Metal. We make this music for ourselves. Approval of others is a fringe benefit from the start, so yes I think it is safe to say that we will remain in this niche. I think it is a enough that we manage to appeal to many Death Metal fans.

Then how could the audience use their own minds (free-will) to get a conclusion the same as Black Metal musicians? I doubt the only thing we could expect is LaVey's statement, "Satanists are born, not made", being true.

Wrath: I do agree with that statement in the sense that Black Metal (or extreme music in general) seems to be a calling. Since I was a small child, I found fascination in the dark elements, the villains and monsters of movies, the (absence of) color black. Clearly I am not alone in these proclivities as all of my friends and peers follow this music and its accordant trappings. As far as the audience compared to musicians, as I said before there must be leaders and followers. Any metal band worth engaging will present ideas and aesthetics that will unite and justify an audience by interpreting these inherent feelings they commonly share as music. The same can be said of any genre, even pop music. Why does every pop artist sing about the pain of love? In such cases it is the simplest route to appealing to a large audience quickly and easily. On a smaller and more direct scale, Black Metal serves the same purpose though the precepts are generally alienation, darkness, and hatred.

Hundreds of thousand years darkness gather here, night of the nights. Averse Safira is paving the way of early Immortal…but the whole "anti-LaVey" attitude was common within Norwegian scene. Fenriz of Darkthrone once stated on Fortean Times (Issue 80, pg.34), "I like nothing better than spreading hatred from the stage. We want to incite the audience to go out and do our dirty work for us." What's your point of view?

Wrath: He should have worked harder. Darkthrone has played less than 10 shows in their entire career if I’m correct. In regards to influencing listeners, we prefer to foster new ideas in their minds, if not to present fairly common ideas in a new way. The “dirty work” we have in mind is for people to think goD out of existence. I have grown tired of impotent band T-shirts that spout “blasphemous” slogans about killing the nazerene or violating nuns, etc. In the end, such items still acknowledge the presence of the christian icons. I agree these ideas must be destroyed, but as I said, if we who oppose christianity refuse to acknowledge its existence, then it will lose some of its strength and influence. This is the idea we wish to express to our listeners.

Here are several words, could you tell me what they mean to you?

Dualism:

Wrath: While I am not a pupil of Descartes, I do agree in the idea that mind and body are oft divergent. We live our lives thinking one thing while doing another, sometimes acting or not acting in contradiction with what we desire or reject in our minds. Moreover, the more society adds pressures to uphold these contradictions, the further we drift into duplicitous ways.

Sanguine: The way that xtians want to define the world as, e.g. at any given moment, the static nature of man: high and low, good and evil, two sides to every story. The truth is much more mercurial and multifaceted. There are innumerable sides, aspects and actions to the world and what dwells within and without it.

Spinozism:

Sanguine: All is god and god is all, and all can be proved with geometry; a good starting place for some, but not essential reading. If you replace "god" with "Self" or "Will", there might be something viable there, provided in the end, it kills itself.

Wrath: It would take a belief in a supreme being to see much merit in this philosophy. The works of Spinoza are not aligned with the way I view the world and the mechanics of the human machine.

58 (Nahash and Mashiah):

Wrath: The two sides of the coin in Judaeic lore- the infamous serpent of evil and the messiah to lead the chosen people. Jesus took brilliant advantage of the prophecies, and it may be only at the end of human history that we may finally be rid of his legacy. Outside of this it means little to me as I am not an Kabbalist.

Sanguine: Dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, I made you out of clay. We are not Jews, there will be no Messiah nor Serpent today.

En-sof or Creation out of Nothing:

Sanguine: A valuable concept, the Three Veils of Negative Existence that godhood passes through before manifestation as Kether, the first Sefira. While we enjoy it in theory, and it fits more within the "Nature as creator, Nature as a force unto itself," it still presupposes premeditation in the order and creation of things and thus, must be destroyed by itself.

Wrath: In the Tree of Life, En sof represents the three veils of negative existence. I have always liked the idea of creation from nothing- it is arrogant and alienating in the same stroke. This is why in the “Battle’s Clarion” booklet it states, “We are One from None, We are All to All, We are Nothing to No One.”

Man fear for life and terrified by death, will they be satisfied when the truth been told?

Wrath: No, for their true reward was life upon earth for however long it was granted. Their fears rob them of this bounty and prevent them from ever making a mark of note in the course of history. They die frightened and anonymous. So be it.

Sanguine: No, man will never be satisfied as they will be unable to share the shocking realization that they will face nothing when their time comes, no light, no pets, no grandparents gone on before them, just the cold empty of the grave. They will not be able to come back and tell their drinking buddies how great the afterlife is because there is no "after" after life is over, just dirt and perhaps flames if we are lucky.

This is also the most satisfied end in my mind, but you know, Atheism has been in existence long long time before, but still, no one could convict the believers of god (gods) completely until now. We still have a long way to go, may time prove everything.

Meme:

The word “meme” was coined by English Biologist Richard Dawkins in his (much-maligned) 1976 book The Selfish Gene, as the name of thought or idea which mutant, spread and inherit – in the same way gene does. “‘Mimeme’ comes from a suitable Greek root, but I want a monosyllable that sounds a bit like ‘gene’.” ”Consider the idea of God. We do not know how it arose in the meme pool. Probably it originated many times by independent `mutation.' In any case, it is very old indeed. How does it replicate itself? By the spoken and written word, aided by great music and great art. Why does it have such high survival value? Remember that `survival value' here does not mean value for a gene in a gene pool, but value for a meme in a meme pool. The question really means: What is it about the idea of a god which gives it its stability and penetrance in the cultural environment? The survival value of the god meme in the meme pool results from its great psychological appeal. It provides a superficially plausible answer to deep and troubling questions about existence. It suggests that injustices in this world may be rectified in the next. The `everlasting arms' hold out a cushion against our own inadequacies, which, like a doctor's placebo, is none the less effective for being imaginary. These are some of the reasons why the idea of God is copied so readily by successive generations of individual brains. God exists, if only in the form of a meme with high survival value, or infective power, in the environment provided by human culture.” - Dawkins, R., The Selfish Gene (London: Paladin/Granada Publishing 1978) p207

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