Discussions of the Idea of a Pavilion

A Round Pavilion?

John Quimby <jwquimby@yahoo.com>

Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 

Devin, 

The round pavilion sounds perfect (albeit, a little more difficult to build).  I guess you saw my comments about the wisdom of building such a building (wrote to Darrin).  I cannot imagine a camp such as Unirondack without a pavillion.  There are so many activities that occur in the lodge and Gillman that should be in a pavillion (without walls).

 Thanks for all you do for the camp.

 Quimby

From: Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>

To: John Quimby <jwquimby@yahoo.com>

I pushed through the idea of a Pavilion for the camp - to be built within 2 years...  just need the money/and or labor and final plans...

Latest idea is thinking of a Round building...  not sure what you think of that... it was rectangle  then Dan suggested more square fits with things we do... in circles...  now some are thinking Round....The stone fireplace would have a GRILL   on the Back side  for the cook out crew to cook on! 

Devin

Square or Round?

continuing the review of an outdoor Pavilion nature center: the board was supportive and passed a motion to move forward.  We are trying to come up with best solution to the options....  here is some talk and links to photos of Round Structure construction...  which evolved at the meeting when Dan proposed a Square vs the original Rectangular building.  And then a stretched Square...  now a circle?  

  I have included some folks here that did not see all the early e-mails and I will retrace and try to catch them up.  So if this is the first you have heard of this hang on til I catch you up.   Send any comments to ME not the group... and please do not start a hailstorm outside the group... until we work through what we think we want to do here....

  Devin

from Darren:

Hey Everyone,

I love round buildings. Randee and I are planning to build a round home when the time comes. One that is not truly round (has some slight corners) like the one in the pics might be a bit easier to do the roof.

My father in law built his home which is an octagon. He went in that particular direction instead of round for the same reasons mentioned (roof and trusses).

I think a round building, if large and spacious enough, could accommodate programing. I would foresee most things taking place with campers in a circle anyway and if there was enough room for people to break into small groups them we'd be fine. Additionally I personally believe round structures tend to blend into the environment more and create less of a harsh contrast between the building's sharp angles and the natural curves and bends of the landscape. This might ease, ever so slightly, the concerns of those who do not like the idea of a new building.

I'd love to hear other's ideas.

Take care- Darren

you could have compacted gravel base with timbers on that gravel and natural Adirondack boards for flooring.

Posts around perimeter holding up roof shown in the photos....

would a circle work for programing needs is my question???  to you guys.

Thanks 

Mark,

   I was involved with Redfield job only a bit and heard issues... not sure if he did the bathroom in Gilman - that came out real nice..  Kitchen had issues and we learned that you need to monitor and oversee contractors..

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Mark Holberg - WayNorth.com <mah@waynorth.com> wrote:

Devin,

Since I am not responsible for the outcome, take my suggestions for what they are worth.

I talked the other day with Chan Redfield (Redfield Contracting in Carthage) about round structures. He built several, including his own home. Chan said he has done work at camp before -for the kitchen.

Darrin is right about complicated trusses. 

Chan also said that crushed stone might suffice as a base for the wooden floor. Cheaper the concrete, easier to lay (just vibrate it) and if the frost messes it up, just dig up and re-lay.

I also have some photos to send you of a wild brick structure that was built at the Athens, Ohio, fellowship. It's a brick wall serving as a backdrop for outside worship on one side, and a full outdoor grilling setup on the other. The guy who built it is an artist who work with brick.

Mark

--

Mark Holberg

WayNorth Web

Web Design & Hosting

Watertown, NY 13601

315-486-0615

http://www.WayNorth.com

Michael McArthur <unite@riseup.net> Jan 16, 2009, 12:38 PM

Hey Devin,

I was around when Redfield did the kitchen and bath. I would not 

recommend hiring him again for anything. He cut corners everywhere. 

(not a good idea, even with a round building) He talks a good game 

about his work and experience and then sends inexperienced day 

laborers to do all of the work with no real supervision. Chan did not 

set foot on the job site after the contract was signed. In fact I 

think he was on vacation during the duration of the job and when there 

was a problem he could not be reached.

The quality of the work is the biggest reason not to hire him, but in 

terms of how he treats his employees, he was far from a decent 

employer. I don't know what he was billing us per hour, but he was 

paying his employees barely minimum wage for skilled labor. I think 

Unirondack should support justice and equity in the workplace, and 

that includes good working conditions, and fair pay.

Michael

Mark,   here is the info on Redfield just so you know... institutional memory is important...

Devin

Andrew Lewin <Andrew_Lewin@swiftnet.org>Jan 16, 2009, 10:23 AM

Hi Devin.  When you say that the board voted to "move forward", what does

that mean exactly?  Thanks for the updates, I appreciate being in the loop.

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Jan n 16, 2009, 10:30 AM

to Andrew

motion was to build a pavilion within 2 years - if we had the $$  to do it...

The case FOR a Pavilion - John Quimby 2009

Archivist note:  This email from John Quimby our beloved outdoor ed teacher was a real huge deciding factor to go forward at full speed:

Jan 7, 2009 

As for a pavilion at Unirondack:  

I find it very difficult to believe that a camp like Unirondack does not have a pavilion large enough to accomodate the entire group during a summer session.  Indeed, it should be the first structure built in a camp of that sort.  For me, Unirondack is all about being in the Adirondacks-outside. 

As it is now, there is no place to assemble more than five or six people in a sheltered place to conduct any activity when it is raining.  That is shameful.  In my opinion, why have a "million-dollar" property in the middle of the Adirondacks and do almost everything inside?  It runs counter to every sense I can think of (how can you hear the birds or see the trees sway or feel the breeze when you are cooped up in a stuffy building?). 

A pavilion would immediately become the most used building on campus.  People would want to eat breakfast there, lunch, have workshops and, on rainy nights, the campfire (arguably the most meaningful and spiritual part of camp.  Sorry, it just isn't the same indoors).

I don't know how much it would cost to build a pavilion, but, whatever it is, we cannot afford not to build it. 

I can imagine people being so excited to use the pavilion there would be all sorts of innovative ways developed to transport the necessary accoutrements down there from Gillman to facilitate meals or activities.  ""Talent night" could be at the pavillion, as could "Cafe Luna", workshops, art, dances, sleeping out even when the weather is really nasty.

In short, a pavilion at Unirondack is not only a nice addition, it is essential.

John Quimby

Naming the Pavilion and the Crew Shop

Planning to get concept approved by the Board

"Gottfried Nature Center "    Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Tue, Jan 6, 2009, 10:04 PM

to Camp (Dan and Darren)

I have drawn some neat drawings of the proposed Gottfried Nature Center and plan to present it at the meeting and see if we can get some sign off on the concept  as a first step.

Dan do you think you could get John Quimby to right a few paragraphs or whatever he wants on the benefits such a structure would bring to our program - mission?  (by Friday - he can refine it later)

He was quite passionate about it during our talks with Butch.  "it is almost  a crime that we don't have such a facility" was something I recall. 

I would like as many angles and uses for this thing as possible.. if you guys can write something in your free time that would help...  if you think it is important.....

Proposed structure is 35' by 70' cement floor with stone fireplace along one of the long sides.  support beams of natural tree logs,  roof supported by nice Adirondack style Scissor trusses..  (Sophia Fahs) to give it an open space inside...

Any tables used would be light weight so they could be moved so groups can use it as an activity area.

Floor hockey, 4 square, catch with ball,  square dance, New games, 'outdoor' campfire for rainy nights. picnic sitting for weekly cook outs....

meeting location for nature class and others that would like to meet outdoors but have some shelter and work area.  outdoor art work

Breakfast outdoors for special event  Alternative secure meeting space ie emergency processing center away from other structures.

Replace the Recreation Hall lost after the fire when Gilman was taken as kitchen/dining/meeting space.

Just measured the Original Gilman rec Hall before the addition.. it was 30' by 60'   so my 35x70 may be tad big...

I am putting my passion into this as Dan put his into pulling our ass out of the fire this past year.  Most people with structures named for them did about 1/10 or less than Dan has done for camp.   anyway...

if you guys as directors do not want this on the camp  let me know....  I think we visualized it as part of our dreams   and this would be the first step to getting it done.

I always want things done NOW not for our kids grandkids..  but for Our Kids and us to enjoy....  thus if there is something we can do ... I always say.. let's do it..

Devin

Camp Unirondack <director@unirondack.org>Wed, Jan 7, 2009, 9:34 AMme

Hi Devin- 

Wow. I am touched and more than a little embarrassed. I'd love to see such a structure but please let's come up with a better name. 

I will share your e-mail with Quimby and see if he has some ideas. It may be short notice for him. 

I would suggest if we build such a structure it include a storage room for tables, some speakers and such for dances?, chairs, and whatever else. It would also be a good idea to have electricity. 

Many thanks.

   Dan

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Jan 7, 2009, 6:20 PM

to Camp (Dan Gottfried)

very nice,  roll up screens would be great...  like you roll up flaps on a big tent when you do not want the sides down...  storage room for tables etc  I had thought of that but it had not gelled...

power for sure....

John gave me More than I could have hoped for in his writing....  .

as for the name,  hey that is not up to you so no need to be embarrassed...  we can leave it blank just like Marc's shop does not have his name as he would never stand for that....

Devin

Brian Kress calls for Wooden Floor

Visualizing construction of the pavilion and materials:

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com> Jan 8, 2009, 3:58 PM

to Camp (Gottfried)

the Wood floor came in from Brian Kress (on crew '81-'88) any pavilion I have seen was cement floor...   once he mentioned his idea I like it.

   Only wood flooring I can think of that is outdoors would be a front porch of a house.

  I have replaced enough of those to know they do rot...

I do not think any Winter walls would work at camp as just to labor intensive.... need to build it to take just sitting there..

What kind of wood floor sits outside? A wooden Deck.....   

Could make that floor out of 2x8 pressure treated lumber...  over pressure treated  framing.

A pavilion you want almost Level with the ground so you do not really Step down... so kids can run in and out....  so any framing would be below grade..  you have to dig OUT   put in the footers and then use 6x6 pillars to come Up to hold the roofing..  and these would be the posts to hang the flooring joists on as well....

That constructions turns it into a Pretty Simple straight forward project...

Devin

Pushing the Project onto the fast track

Camp Unirondack <director@unirondack.org>Mar 19, 2010, 10:05 PM

to Mary, Devin

Hi Mary- 

I don't see this as a building we will add walls to, as a large part of building it is to move folks out of the indoors and closer to the nature surrounding us.

 My experience with camp is that if there is not someone puyshing as Devin is to get something doen it has a way of fading away, so i am in favor of moving ahead for this season.

 It would be wonderful if there was a way you could joining Devin for the conversation this coming week with the builder as I think you raise many very important points that should be hammered out and may actually reduce the cost, if I am reading you right.

 The size of the building is loosely based on other pavillions we are familiar with. I thought Devin had said at some point that it was very close in size to Gilman. Are you certain it is larger than the width of Gilman? If so, we could reduce it somewhat if that would save us some money. However, I think we need to remember how much space the stage and side rooms take up. 

On important note I forgot to mention earlier. I do NOT think we should have floorboards with space between them. I think devin and i discussed this early on but if we didn't I apologize for not mentioning it earlier. I have been in halls with floorboards that have space between them and they splinter far more than we would want.

   dan..

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Mar 19, 2010, 10:17 PM

to Camp, Mary

Gilman is about 37' we figured with Marc's addition..  and it is 60' long  in total..  so pretty close to the same  and I am quite confident i40x60 is a good size..

Floor boards is one detail to work out with contractor and lumber mill... to make sure splinters not an issue...  spacing between boards may not be needed or could be very fine.. not spaced like a dock or something  just fine cracks between boards..  or maybe no space..  we could leave spaces at strategic locations though.... so when you sweep... it just goes DOWN the crack....

devin

Camp Unirondack <director@unirondack.org> 19, 2010, 11:19 PM

to me, Mary

Thanks Devin. That gives me perspective. Yes, I would agree 40 x 60' is correct size to build. 

I think it would work best to just be able to sweep right off the pavilion floor at the edges if that is doable, with no spaces between boards. At least that is what I have seen elsewhere. 

  Dan

Camp Unirondack <director@unirondack.org>Mar 21, 2010, 9:23 PM

to Mary, me

Hi Mary- 

The board had a phone meeting tonight to give the go ahead. I think the prevailing feeling is that the dormers are integral to the specialness of the building and need to stay. I believe the storage rooms are completely enclosed- yes, Devin? I would be very interested in hearing what the sound guy has to say. 

I agree about trying for tongue and groove boards if they are practical. The question Devin raised is whether or not there needs to be more space between boards to allow fro expansion as they are exposed to the elements. Do you know anything about that?

I am so excited this is going to happen.

  Dan..

Devin Hollandsr 21, 2010, 10:17 PM

folding tables can be purchased with the flat cart.. you stack 6 -10 on a cart.. and roll under the stage.. yes the floor would extend under the stage and stage

Dormers or no Dormers?

Mary KirkpatrickMar 21, 2010, 11:32 PM

"Prevailing feeling"...  what did the board have to go on?  They hadn't seen an alternative, had they?  Can you honestly say that the dormers have any function? 

Devin HollandsMar 22, 2010, 6:48 AM

The idea of a removing the dormers was presented with the reasons behind it...Envisioning the building minus dormers (less expense) was easy and attractive at some levels for those on the call....      but the headroom over the stage.. for juggling, towers, stuff in air etc was felt needed.. thus one dormer..  and the idea of one one dormer was explored..  but balancing the design was important  the other front dormer can house a nice little room for various uses...  with the porch for all the original ideas... 

Mary KirkpatrickMar 22, 2010, 

Juggling?  The architect's truss at F isn't any taller than mine, at the sides; **the dormer won't help height over the stage**.  You want it higher, you can go for another Warren truss.  It needs to be straight across at the bottom for the curtain.  The truss will be hidden...  The one further back can have the metal struts painted black so they won't show... 

Mary KirkpatrickMar 22, 2010, 

to phil_lewin, phillewin, rc19, Camp, me

Hi Dan, Devin, and Phil,

(Since you mentioned Phil, Devin, I thought I'd best include him.)  Since my e-mail last night (below), my main feeling is mostly of unease with the whole process of decision-making around the pavilion-- and all my submitting of drawings is not so much to get you to go along with "my" ideas but to show some different possibilities -- to

show that there are ways that could be a lot more cost-effective and functional and clean in design than what the architect has drawn up

so far.  The board is not necessarily in a position to be informed about these things.  So they will defer to the one person who has

some knowledge, and some strong ideas.  But when you're spending $50, $60, or $70,000 on the project, you owe it to the board and to Unirondack, including all the people who budget carefully to take the family or send the kids to camp, to go through some sort of design process with a professional.  This could be an architect but doesn't

have to be.  There are "design" people... 

I haven't heard about a process where the different competing needs for a new building are carefully weighed and prioritized...  I get the feeling that one is trying to have it both ways, outdoors and indoors at the same time.  Safety has not been given a priority, or even thought about sometimes.  And with all this, the financial footings and general ongoing stability of Unirondack remain precarious.

The dormers:

1. harm the otherwise beneficial acoustics of the hipped roof design

2. cause more wind load

3. have severe safety issues as pointed out, with the easy access to the roof

4. limit the space in one back corner (because of the stair)

5. do not add height over the front of the stage

6. would cost a lot more than leaving them out

Benefits?  All I have heard so far is that they would be "cool" or "special" and allow a few kids at a time to get up on the balcony and have a cool (if dangerous) view of things.  And if you go with them, I won't bug you any more, LOL

This is Unirondack; we can design what we like; why not design the *best* we can instead of harking back to the 19th century...

Cheers,  Mary

Original Basic Plans

Looking for the Architect

As Dave Ashley our Architect for Leining and the proposed Unirondack House retired I was looking for a new architect:

Chris,

  Unirondack is planning to build a nice pavilion on a corner of the playing field - overlooking the lake....  THIS SPRING....

The board has worked through some concepts and has in mind what they would like.

...  we would like to work with the same carpenter Lyndecker who built our last building you designed for the camp.  Builder can do it this spring and would like to see drawings to make a quote.

The directors and board feel this new pavilion will be a great addition to the camp.. We have been trying to get this built for 20 years and finally it will happen.

The new Pavilion will be a mirror our old Rec hall   ---  but OPEN air (screened)  on 3 sides... - the old rec hall is now taken up by kitchen and dining -

The stage would be flanked by storage rooms and would have back wall...

the floor we would like to make from wood... so it is pleasant to sit on, dance on etc....

If you open the photo attached it shows a boat house.. of a design we love.. and would love to mimic to some degree as real Adirondack architecture..   I liked the little over-look coming out the roof.. and hoped to do that in our building... and found it worked best OVER the Stage area...

  this would be a little 15'x15' room.. for a little hide-a-way, look out, meeting room.... as the Back wall would be a solid wall  on the playing field (facing a wooded section) I thought turning it into a climbing wall would be a great thing...   with hand holds going up the wall..  and pulleys for harness ropes at the peak..

   Another addition could be a little observatory dome... so we could have a little permanent telescope set up...  

pavilion would be 40' by 60' 

let me know what you think.... 

Devin Hollands

Archivist note: Chris Duerr would draw Steven's, Chadwick addition, and the Boathouse addition

Concept Idea presented to Architect 

Pavilions used as models

Reporting to the Board pushing Cement Floor

From: Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>

To: leaders@unirondack.org

Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 5:20:54 PM

Subject: pavilion

I was able to work on some preliminary planning for the Pavilion concept tonight so wanted to share what we have so far.... I will visit several of these in the area to gain more in site into post spacing and height from ground to eaves...

The wood floor even with basic pressure treated wood would cost several times more than a basic poured concrete floor...  The construction of the concrete floor is many factors easier the concrete floor would hold up better in the long run... smooth concrete floor may be better for square dancing etc  and sports...

So even though the committee members suggested the wood and we were planning it .. I think the traditional route is done for good reasons..

I just had a floor poured today for an addition similar in size to what we are talking and based on the bill I have the cost for masons to do the floor would be about $4,000.. with all material and labor.. (Rochester costs.....) Lumber alone would be a lot more than that for the same floor....

Dimensions:  We landed at 40' by 60' the original Gilman end to end is 60' (stage, dining, kitchen)   and side to side 28'

POSTS  we can use 6x6 posts same material we used on the retaining walls at camp entrance...  these would go in the ground 4' on a concrete pad and be surrounded in concrete to grade.

ROOF to Span a 40' wide building I am proposing  we have Trusses made for us..  Scissor type truss   .. each side spans about 20' to the edge.. coming together in middle...

  with the scissor truss design you have NO beams at ceiling level going across...  it will thus have a more OPEN and high feeling.... Having these made and dropped in place also makes construction very simple....I would use plywood and architecture shingles...  cedar color and look... This would deaden the rain noise....   a metal roof would not work due to the loud noise factor...

On the woods end we propose the stage area...  with two rooms for storing chairs and gear....   I envision one of  these rooms being used as green room during a performance as the chairs would be out...  Between the two rooms I think a permanent stage similar size to existing would be best option... The Back of the stage area I think would need to be a solid wall...

The rooms and the wall will add tremendous lateral strength to the structure.. which will have no other walls for to stop lateral shift....

The eaves of the roof will sit on runner boards going along the top of the posts...   the runner boards will come down to 8'  and the screens will be attached to the boards...  this height keeps the building at a human level and allows taller folks the ability to unvelcro the straps and roll down the screens...  screens can then zip or velcor together....   with some form of door... during screen down time.... 

  The FIRE PLACE would be at the opposite  end....

The buildings LONG edge would run parallel to the LAKE above the picnic grove.. about 75' set back from the lake  .   The Back edge of the build runs along the current Volley ball net....  so only one team will be able to play.. until we move the court..

Devin 

Feelings against a Pavilion

Michael McArthur <unite@riseup.net>Aug 21, 2009, 6:06 AM

Hi Devin,

Matt makes me realize something. A pavilion on the field to "help enjoy nature", takes away one more space where you can actually sit in nature and net be in or near a larger building. I like the wild.

Michael

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Aug 21, 2009, 7:56 AM

to Camp, Michael

true - building a shelter to get kids outdoors - sounds like ironic...  but there is much more to it than that...

the idea is to get people out of the enclosed upper camp buildings and down to an open building where they are more outdoors...

rather than sitting in a dank lodge on wet campfire nights you can be out in  wild under the roof around our in the floor chalice fire pit...  you can hear the frogs see the stars and feel the bugs...  what more does a kid need...

I can hardly remember using the Old Gilman before the fire - we have never had a large space since then to do things you do in a big rec hall...--

Devin Hollands

Michael McArthur <unite@riseup.net>Aug 21, 2009, 8:13 AM

to me

Yes,

Devin, I understand the idea, of getting people down on the field. I don't agree that the pavilion will really do that. I think if people need to get outside, the lean-to would be used more. We need a good reason why it isn't before we can build a pavilion.

I guess we also disagree about the overall character of camp. Unirondack is very cushy compared to other camps. Other camps have cabins with no plumbing. Some have platform tent, some have no structures at all. Some have no campus. Some have no kitchen.

I'm guessing that people who oppose the pavillion would be more interested in a camp that was about tenting and hikes, and outdoor campfire, mosquitoes be damned. I think a few mosquito bites and a little rain build character into a person and into the camp experience.

This argument is secondary to my already stated, environmental impact objection.

M-

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Aug 21, 2009, 8:59 AM

to Camp, Michael

I am including the directors so they can reflect on your thoughtful comments - when they have time -

The Lean To  is interesting   and I think  if the directors made a slight push they would have the thing sold out... it just takes leadership to show the staff the concept and use  and then the staff takes it and has sleep overs and what not.... as we used to....

right now the staff has no idea what it is so they assume it is a big storage locker for swim fins and water front stuff.  and that is the end of it.

The staff and kids do not know that they have the option to have a cool camp site right there and go camping...  300' from their cabins....

for outdoor activity use.. just not a great place to meet as is... unless you are studying the outdoors or bugs...

Some kids love tenting and hikes... like my daughter...   but 90% don't .. judging from interest on the parker trip and trip camp vs Ballou camp..

Environmentally - it would cover the ground with a slap of concrete 32' x 60'    I don't think it will do more than that if we collect the rain run off....

   as the focus goes to the area I assume focus on making nicer shore line make take place...  cutting back tall grass and small growth - opening up lake in that area.... 

--Devin Hollands

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Aug 21, 2009, 9:16 AM

to Michael, Camp

We are trying to run a camp with 100 people in a place where it rains every few days - so to shelter these folks and do stuff..  is important and the roofs we have now are not cutting it for the groups..... so without ruining the camp we are trying to accommodate the needs....  the camp has always been a place of walls and roofs...   this one is a compromise roof not much walls........  but will certainly fill many needs and be used  guarantee it..

  Quimby who is our outdoor guide these days feels the camp should be built around this structure...  you start with this and go out....

--Devin Hollands

Buildings and Grounds Committee discussion:

I can not find the e-mails from Mike M. but he did not see need to build more building but if it was built try to incorporate the pumphouse and the bathroom on the field into one building.

 Matt Catlin seconded Mikey's comments. – that he did not want a new building

  And added if it had to happen he wanted to use Brian Kress idea of Wood floor rather than cement.

Discussion on Wood Floors as proposed by Brian Kress on the committee

Original concept was for cement floor, easy-cheap-weather resistant.  The wood floors came up, this email discusses plastic wood and then back to the wood idea.

r salois <rsalois@drinkxa.com>Nov 11, 2009, 11:57 PM

to Devin

Good Evening Devin  Even though Trex is expensive it has its own issues.  Remember that it still expands and contracts so if you use the complete Trex system, the product should be installed and measured the same as wood products.  Use the correct fastening screws, and use plenty of them or the product will squeak when it heats up.  Thanks  Bob 

From: Devin Hollands [mailto:devinhollands@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:28 AM
To: rsalois@drinkxa.com
Subject: Unirondack questions 

Bob,
  The floor you helped us work on came our real nice up at the camp Dan G. runs.
We are now planning an outdoor Pavilion and Dan mentioned you again to run the flooring issues by.
We are trying to get a wood type floor rather than cement.. to offer nicer surface for activities....
Problem is it is an open building so snow, rain and sand from shoes are issues...
I have been looking at various Trex products as they now have nice colors and textures..  not just the old plastic block look.
So to me these seem like a great solution if you can afford the cost...
We would build a pressure treated joist system.. and lay down the trex type over that....
This type of flooring may not be what you deal with but wonder if you have any suggestions?
Devin Hollands,
Camp Unirondack <director@unirondack.org>Fri, Nov 13, 2009, 4:52 AM

to Heather, me

I would also like to talk to the folks at Pinewoods camp, as they have similar weather there and all their pavillions have wood floors.

  Dan..

Attached photo is one dan is talking about..  beautiful floor and framing wood..  NOTICE the GRATES  that the entrance for kicking sand off shoes..  I wanted these in Leining.. but did not really come up with a solution...

This configuration is close to ours with the enclosed end.. (like our stage end)... I think this looks to be 30'  and a little narrow...

The Eaves are so large  rain would not touch the floors....except during large wind....

to maintain that floor... wow..  lot of work...  look at Gilman we can't even do that real well...

I saw Many more Trex type boards yesterday at the distributor... SO MANY colors and patterns  the stuff REALLY looks great.. I am surprised...

One system you drill the hole for the screw with special bit... and then you put a plug in over the screw....   you can not see it...  and they do not come out...

dh--

Devin Hollands

Heather Smith-Prisco <izzyb10@yahoo.com>Nov 13, 2009, 9:07 AM

to me, Camp

Wow. That's gorgeous.

H.

Board Trouble - trying to building new Pavilion and fundraise for new Foundation at the same time

   Classic board conflict - need to save funds for the future and the present need for better facilities and equipment

Devin HollandsJan 6, 2010, 10:42 AM

We should have proposal from architect on the Pavilion project next week... Michael L. Bird, A.I.A. Adirondack Design 30 Riverside Drive © Saranac Lake, NY 1298

Meg Salamack <amotn0@gmail.com> Jan 6, 2010, 10:33 PM

to leaders

I can't support this.

We all agreed that our fundraising efforts would go towards our Endowment.

Devin and I have gone around this a few times and we do not agree.

I need to leave the board now.  If I stay, my frustration with Devin will become anger.  Camp is an important part of my life and a place that I love dearly.

I, Meg Salamack, officially resign from Unirondack's Board of Trusties. 6 January, 2010.

I wish you all the best.

Meg

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Jan 7, 2010, 12:22 AM

to Meg, leaders

Meg not sure why you take this route... sorry if something is not clicking with the work we are doing.

The campaign for the endowment is one item we are all working on... did you not read all the notes I have sent out pushing people to work on it and think about it and prepare for the long awaited consultant?  Not sure how you could not think I am 100% behind the vision you have for it....

Building a pavilion is a complete separate item....  that was approved by the board to be built by next year..at our Albany meeting..   a few of us have been wrestling with the best solution for this to fit our needs over the last year.  We have one major donation directed to the building....

  Making improvements and attracting help financially and otherwise - is part of what the board does....

None of the above work takes away from the goal that you and the board has laid down to raise a Million dollars  which I am proposing go to fund the new Foundation.

I think the foundation will be the thing you have dreamed of that will assure nothing can take the camp down...

I hope you can see we are doing exactly what you desired....along with the items targeted to add to the facility/program for the camp.

Devin Hollands

1/6/10

Planning Spring start for pavilion need an architect and board approval  (wood floor over a cement slab idea)  January 2010

Jan 26, 2010 03:15:52 PM, devinhollands@gmail.com wrote:

Clayton - would you and Fred be up for handling some electrical on this thing - June time frame....

We are working to have the pavilion at camp for next summer.

  The board has worked through a few more design details and letter below is to gain approval for an architect to do initial concept plan.

I wanted to bring you all up to speed on where we are in the process.  Our builder - who did Leining - is interested in building this spring.

the pavilion will essentially replace the Gilman Rec Hall  that has been taken over by the kitchen and dining.

the building will be screened - but get kids more Outdoors

it will have a wood floor.. nice for activities and dancing...

we are doing a major square dance week for family camp this summer - with world class dance caller...as resource.. and the beaver city jug band lead by Alan Thompson...

the building is 40' x 60'  and would be placed on the corner of the playing field over by the cook-out area.. but up on the flat field.. corner...

we do not know the cost but could be $50 - $80k.

we have one large donation in hand of $25k and a proposal to issue bonds to members for $10k each   the bonds would be repaid over the years by interest earned from the new Foundation Fund we also are proposing...  The foundation fund is our new campaign we are working on to raise $$ to secure the camps health and future...  earnings from the fund would pay for requirements of the camp.   ..  the bonds would be $ given by camp folks not any outside institution that would have influence or could harm the camp in any way.   This is just a proposal to be worked out.

The attached drawings attached are rough sketch made today while brainstorming with architect...

We are very excited about the project and think it will offer very strong addition to the camp program.

any comments please send to me directly as others may not want a string of emails.. but I can forward on comments to group...

 If you have no interest in emails let me know and I can take you out...

Devin  1-26-10

I just had a nice sit down with architect Christian S. Duerr R.A.  in Rochester.  We went over every tricky aspect of the pavilion and he is quite excited about the project.  I used Chris when I needed inspired design work on the addition to my home this summer.  I enjoy working with him and think he is a great fit for this project we are doing. 

He took the rough drawings I had and added symmetrical Dormers at the ends of the building...  on to give head room over the stage ..  on the field end.. we would build the little look out room in the dormer.. with a little outdoor balcony for the telescope or hanging around..

He is thinking engineered Scissor trusses for the main section of roof  the ends - hip roofs would be stick built

He is thinking a Cement Slap with Sleepers (small wood strips) and a plank wood floor would solve a lot of our cost issues and give us a good floor...  the planks can be the Hemlock our local producer makes for us.. it is weather resistant.. and would do the trick... ever have an issue.. you cut one out and put new board down....

He is proposing a 2 phased contract for him...   to do the design - concept rough work...$800. to have drawings that board and builder could look at and comment on and work with...  almost could build off them...

   But real buildings plans - stamped - for approval and for detailed building  he estimates $2,400

ATTACHED are sketches drawn while we talked...  the posts on the full drawing would be in the ground so the building would be at ground level

the OTHER drawing is of the BACK of the building towards the woods...  on the back of the Stage I proposed a little climbing wall..  he sketched the little hand holds over the walls..  a nice pulley or two would be at the peak to handle harness for going up the middle taller section....

we would also pay for small expenses like copies and scanning or whatever he needs done.

This is exactly the range I was hoping for.

Chris is willing to talk to the local builder to see what they suggest for certain aspects based on what methods they are comfortable with...  in short he is all there 100% in tune with what we want and knows how to make things work nice.

I met him as he was the lead designer for one of my clients apartment complexes...  then I used him for my house.

He understands I need to move now on this.

He has kids in the 11-13 year age (3) - and I think they will soon be campers.

So I feel real good about this and would hope someone would propose a motion to take the first $800 step with Chris and we could see if others will approve this so we can move along.

Dan's friend has offered advice but these types of buildings are not his thing.  Dave Ashley our UU designer is retired.. hugh Anderson the lodge designer past away... My Adirondack designer proposed $9,500 for the plans....

--

Devin Hollands

Adirondack Park Agency puts STOP WORK order on the project

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>May 24, 2010, 8:41 PM

to Camp

APA threw a wrench at me..  I had them come up to mark the water line and they looked at the plans and now say it is not a pavilion due to the stage walls... and pulled our apa permit....

   I have worked over all the data from our survey and old applications and have determined we still comply....

we are allowed 25% growth over what we have in 1973.  Mark G. and I have done several applications and our data changed from one to another so they are a bit questioning... but the survey shows exactly what we had in 2002...  so they will get that and full details.

The building inspector has been notified by the apa  I called builder and told him keep working we will work it out...   they have the floor down today I think is what he said!  He will not put up any walls  - in case we need that as a plan B...    

Anyway just want to let you know one for fight here......

devin

Discussing plans with Clayton and Fred Carncross who volunteered the electrical work and materials  March 2010

As the project unrolled and $ came and the bid was not too high we were able to add nicer and nicer touches to the building

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Mar 19, 2010, 6:25 PM

to cjcarncross

Clayton - Fred - I was just in Utica all week.. at the old Utica Boiler works...  now called ECR....  no time to track Fred down though....   I did eat chicken rigi and Utica greens though....

The builder came back with a price of $53k  for the pavilion... no electric no plumbing no chimney.   I hope to get board approve this weekend and then go up north and meet the builder next week and go over details and sign him up....

This is the same fellow who I worked with to build Leining.. so we each know each other and he knows the camp...  very good situation...  He is the kind of guy that just says..  yup.. we can do that...   not the kind that sees all kind of road blocks and issues...  my kind of guy....

He will have the tuss work done at farmers coop.. they stamp the plans etc....

..............

We have $25k donated for the project.. leaves about $35k to complete... we are floating an idea of taking small loans from a few folks..  like a note or a bond from the camp....  for say $5k or $10k each...   then camp pays it back over 5 years...

We are setting up a major fund drive for our foundation.. and do not want fund raising for this to mix with that....   the foundation though WILL  fund projects like this and up keep...  so in theory the income from the foundation could pay back the bonds floated for the pavilion.....

Dan G. has subscribed for $5k  and I know we can find the rest... should be a little interest involved to make it fun.....  so instead of the $ sitting in a fund somewhere.. it is sitting with the camp...

I told the board $60k price... and want to use the extra to add nice touches..  like maybe local  8x8" beams for the posts...  local boards for the roof deck etc.. so when you look up you see nice wood and purlins not plywood....  things like that.. that might add a little more than what the contractor figured...   

At this point we will take care of the plumbing... no a big deal to get water in and drain out...   and fixtures installed...

SOUND GOOD???!!--

Devin Hollands

Dreams of a true Timber Framed Pavilion - March 2010

Price was just too much for us to handle -   the ultimate contractor cost was less than $60,000 

Devin Hollands <devinhollands@gmail.com>Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 11:22 PM

to Camp, Dan, Darren

Dan Darren..  I visited the post and beam operation and was shown a 3D model of the pavilion.. I will be able to offer a link for all to see the model and move around in it....

I will have some pdf files of various shoots of the model...

It is hard to really get across how substantial and nice the actual product is.  I do not have pricing from the contractor doing it normal construction yet.. but will try to call him.....so we can compare...

What they offered today was a price tag for the engineering/drawings/timber/installation of the WOOD frame, matching roofing material about $150,000

WE would supply:

foundation (sonotube) for each post,   floor frame/floor,  Labor for the roofing boards, shingles/labor,  stage/walls, balcony and room, electric, plumbing

we would supply a small crane and fork lift for the 3-4 days to raise the timbers....with crane operator.

I do not want to present anything to board until I get the other pricing and the graphic model etc....  all very shortly......

I have not had much or any feedback from the board  about the post/beam concept....

Wondering what you guys think... Building it with this company and material it is a real incredible building that will inspire - users and those supporting the cause....   very hard to convey the look and feel of the product.... but it is really a great thing...

If we staged the construction we could do this Frame and shingles and electric...  and have a Pavilion....   over sand...   we can add floor/stage/rooms/balcony later  is one approach.....

being a place that we will be at our lives and the lives of our kids and their kids... it really makes sense to reach as far as we can to make this a really super building.....  while at the same time reaching quick goals...  of getting a building up.....

  I do not want to push things off - to raise funds or work through details... as this will just end the project.....  as soon as we loose interest that is the end of it....

This is a Large structure with thousands of  feet of timber... if I recall the stats correct....

I know you want to see what the traditional cost will come out to.... but wanted to get you thinking of this.... if anyone could make the $$ work you guys can do it.... 

I think Sara/ anne perry and others may see the benefit to building an incredibly beautiful inspiring building and may step in to help with $$....  what do you think???

by the way Chris the architect came with me and was very helpful in working through the plans.... the owner of the post and beam company did the initial work and is 100% behind helping us get this done...  

Devin