An Interview with Pramoedya Ananta Toer
by Sebastian Tong and Fong Foong Mei
The following interview took place on 26 December 1996 at Pramoedya's home in Jakarta, Indonesia. Pramoedya's editor and friend, Yusuf Ishak, was also present.
Q: You began telling the story of Minke and Nyai Ontosoroh to your fellow Tapol [Indonesian acronym for tahanan politik or political prisoner] on Buru as a way of reviving their morale. This form of story-telling is similar to the performance of the dalang [wayang puppet-master] and, in fact, critics have compared the Quartet to "traditional Javanese wayang". Is this an accurate description of the novels?
Pramoedya Ananta Toer: Yes ... comparing it with the Javanese Wayang was begun by Professor Chun from Australia and then followed by other critics. But according to my own opinion I have long abandoned the Wayang concepts.
Q: Therefore the Wayang concepts are unrelated to these four books?
PAT: Ya, The Fugitive (Perburuan) was influenced by the Wayang but since then, no more. I have cast off all Javanese influences, not merely the Wayang alone, but all Javanese influences.
Q: But in This Earth of Mankind (Bumi Manusia), Minke imagines himself to be a Javanese knight while Annelies is frequently compared to a fairy-tale queen and even Banowati [a Wayang character].
PAT: I am a critic of Javanese culture. While I have consciously used Javanese elements, I have done so with a critical eye, not under its influence. On the other hand, I have received the good values of Java, those that are decadent I have rejected.
Q: But have they influenced the form of the novels?
PAT: Actually, I don't really like discussing my own works.
Q: With the promotion of Bahasa Indonesia, do you fear the loss of Javanese culture?
PAT: No, it will never fade from this world.
Q: Because in Singapore, the promotion of Mandarin has resulted in some loss of Chinese dialects and their subcultures. Do you think the same will happen with Javanese language?
PAT: Well, in my opinion, if it should be a burden, one should discard it.
Q: Back to the Buru Quartet, Minke gets his name from "monkey". But is Minke related to the Monkey God Hanuman in the Ramayana?
PAT: No.
Q: Did the story change when you were finally able to write it down in 1975?
PAT: The writing process is slower and more refined; one needs to be more responsible. The oral process is very different, just telling stories only. The oral form is for entertainment, the written form is for raising consciousness.
Q: The fourth book, House of Glass (Rumah Kaca) seems to be very different from the first three books. Is this because it was written and not spoken?
PAT: I don't feel that there are differences: the four books evolved from a whole concept.
Q: Why did you decide to suddenly change the first person narrator from Minke to Pangemanann in House of Glass (Rumah Kaca)?
PAT: It was not a sudden change, it was part of the concept since the beginning.
Q: Is it more pessimistic than the first three books?
PAT: That depends on the reader, not me.
Q: I found it pessimistic!
PAT: This is your prerogative as a reader! [Laughs]
Q: When you finally began writing down Minke's story in 1973, did you originally plan to write four books?
PAT: I had the idea from the early days -- since the 1960s I had the concept, only I didn't get the chance to write it out because I was interned.
Q: You have translated Tolstoy into Bahasa Indonesia as well. Is he an important influence?
PAT: Since I have reached maturity, I have shrugged off previous influences. When I was younger, Tolstoy did influence me, yes.
Q: Why did you choose to write in prose? Have you ever written poetry?
PAT: No. My life is not poetry, only prose.
Q: The Buru novels emphasize the importance of Bahasa Indonesia in the emergence of Indonesia. What do you think are the main developments in the use of Bahasa Indonesia since independence?
PAT: Yes, Bahasa Indonesia is a language of unity -- the national language -- but its development is fluid.
Q: Why has the development been "fluid" ?
PAT: If we read little, it is all too easy to use foreign phrases which really is moderately used in Indonesian language. This is done to showcase how educated the user is, how he knows many languages -- that's all. Therefore, the current development of Bahasa Indonesia can be likened to its development in the 1930s. During that time, there was a lot of borrowing from the Dutch language. Now there's a lot of borrowing from the English language, which really is not necessary.
Bahasa Indonesia developed best during the Japanese Occupation. During that time, all foreign languages were forbidden. We therefore had to use Bahasa Indonesia. With the Japanese in power, a lot of Bahasa Indonesian phrases were prepared because of the ban on foreign languages. This official list of phrases was circulated and required to be used generally and in all newspapers.
Nowadays even the most average phrases are replaced with English, or sometimes with Dutch ... with grammatical mistakes even!
Q: Do you fear the spread of American popular culture -- in terms of language, music and film -- among Indonesian youth?
PAT: No, everything which is beneficial to national or individual growth is good. We use Roman letters: its worth is unquestionable, it helps our development. Also the use of paper ... [points to paper printed with the interview questions]
Q: That is what is meant by the title of Child of All Nations (Anak Semua Bangsa)?
PAT: It was in fact stated in the preface of the 1945 Generation [Angkatan 45]: "We are the world's cultural heirs".* Therefore, the question of foreign or not foreign doesn't arise, as long as it is beneficial.
Q: Has the use of Bahasa been effective in uniting and making society more equal in Indonesia?
PAT: Yes, Bahasa Indonesia is very important for Indonesia: socially, politically and culturally, but it must be noted that what is referred to as 'Indonesian people' are urban people who speak Indonesian. Also, Indonesian culture is the culture of urbanites who speak Indonesian.
Q: Is this bad?
PAT: Well, it is part and parcel of the evolution of becoming Indonesian -- a phase. But what is spoken of as Indonesian culture is urban culture -- from Indonesian people who speak Indonesian. This is its status at the present stage. But it must be said that Bahasa Indonesia is not just the language of unity but the language that unifies Indonesia.
Q: What about the East Timorese who resist learning Bahasa Indonesia?
PAT: This is their prerogative, their right, in my opinion. The question of East Timor in my opinion is simple. The founding fathers of the Indonesian Republic decided that Indonesian territory comprised the former Dutch East Indies of which East Timor was not a part. East Timor is the affair of the New Order. Therefore in my opinion, if the East Timorese do not wish to use Bahasa Indonesia, they should go ahead [and reject it]!
Q: Over the last few years we have seen a lot of East Timorese pro-independence activism in Indonesia. How are these activists seen by politically-active Indonesians?
PAT: I don't know.
Q: There is an ongoing argument in Asia that Western-style democracy is unsuitable for Asian values. Do you think that there is such a thing as "Asian" democracy?
PAT: Yes, democracy originated from the West. The debate on it [democracy] is usually raised by those in power, who do not care much for the small people. In my opinion, everyone is alike, has the same rights -- this is democracy. Not acknowledging the rights of others -- this is oppression. Therefore, not acknowledging the rights of others is oppression.
Q: I read somewhere that you're working on a television documentary.
PAT: No.
[Yusuf Ishak clarifies that Pramoedya provided the voice-over narration for the Dutch documentary film Jalan Raya Pos (The Great Post Road)]
Q: Do you think that TV is becoming more important than books in reaching out to people?
PAT: I don't watch much television because of my hearing, but from what I see it is used by capitalists to sell all sorts of things. TV raises levels of delinquency. There really isn't much connection between literature and television.
Q: But people watch it and you have said that you write novels in order to reach out to the people. Do you think you would be writing for TV if you were younger today?
PAT: Yes, no question about it [i.e. TV's massive reach]. But my concern is literature. With writing, you can communicate on an individual level, anywhere at all. There are no [commercial?] bonds with books.
Q: Are you hopeful when you look at young Indonesians today?
PAT: Yes, in my opinion, the future depends on today's youth. If the youth of today are flaccid and passive, there will be no change.
Q: What kind of Indonesia do you think your grandchildren will grow up in?
PAT: That's their problem.
Q: Any of them showing interest in writing?
PAT: I think that after observing the fate of their grandfather, they're afraid to write!
* Pramoedya is quoting the document 'The Gelanggang Testimonial of Beliefs' which foreshadows the ideals of Angkatan 45 -- the post-revolutionary Indonesian literary movement to which he belonged. See Teeuw, A. "Post-war Literature: The Angkatan 45" in Modern Indonesian Literature. Vol 1., 3rd Ed. The Netherlands: Foris Publications Holland, 1986: 127.