[Note that this is an exchange (on Torah.org AskTheRabbi forum) between me and the lady who wrote the comments. My words are the responses. Some of both questions and answers have been edited for brevity - Michoel Reach.
What answers would you have given?]
Question: How can we believe the Holy Scriptures literally when it uses so many references to non scientific facts and mythological creatures/ideas? And the world wasn't made in 6 days but millions of years; and, why haven't we made an apology yet for the terrible way that Ishmael and Hagar were treated; and what is this thing that we have with numerology, with numbers meaning this and that? Isn't that included with witchcraft? There are so many questions I have and need at least a SEMBLANCE of a reasonable answer to calm my brain from thinking so hard. Thank you.
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Thank you for writing. There are myriads of good questions on the Torah, and you have mentioned a few of them. I can't, however, try to find a "semblance of a reasonable answer" to them. I wouldn't be interested, and probably neither are you. The Torah is true, so the right answers to our questions must be true too. They must be *great* answers, or we should not accept them.
Let me try to go through your particular questions.
"How can we believe the Holy Scriptures literally when it uses so many references to non scientific facts and mythological creatures/ideas?" - I can't answer this one, since you didn't specify what you mean. I don't agree that it has any references to anything non-scientific or mythological. You'll have to give examples.
"And the world wasn't made in 6 days but millions of years" - I certainly don't know the complete answer to this. But Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra already said this 800 years ago, long before there was any scientific evidence on the issue. He said that "days" means stages, not clock time. Other sages from that time disagreed. Eventually, as we learn more science, and more Torah, we will work out what that section really means.
Remember, though, that the Torah says that G-d intervened to change the world after the sin of Adam and several other times afterwards. Whenever it says that G-d changed the world, that means by definition that our scientific studies will not be able to penetrate to the time before the change, since we are using the science and rules of the "current world".
I don't know your views on the idea of a "miracle", of G-d changing the laws of nature. Many people seem to feel that it is hard to understand. I am not sure why. I am a computer programmer by trade. People using my programs aren't able to change them; they work within the system I created. I, on the other hand, the programmer, knowing what my programs do, can change everything around. I dunno if that makes it a miracle! It just means that I know how it works and have access to the machinery, while the users don't.
"Why haven't we made an apology yet for the terrible way that Ishmael and Hagar were treated." Not sure how to answer this one. Who are "we"? - I didn't mistreat anyone, and neither did you. Nor are Ishmael and Hagar around to apologize to. I don't think that moral responsibility works that way.
But, to deal with your question directly, Ishmael and Hagar were not treated terribly. Here's my understanding of the story:
Sarah (Sarai) had been trying to deal with a terribly painful problem with which, unfortunately, many are still familiar - childlessness. She chose a solution that was more common in that polygamous world than it would be today; she "brought a rival into her home". A very hard thing for a woman to do, and really an act of great sacrifice. She wanted there to be a family, even if her own status in that family would inevitably be lessened.
It didn't work out well. "Hagar's mistress was lowered in her eyes." Hagar, seeing that she had a child and Sarai could not, began to push her mistress out. She felt that she would have Abraham's primary affection. The child that was born, that should have been raised by Sarai as part of the family, instead became a weapon to hold over her. And when Sarah eventually did have her child, Ishmael continued in his mother's footsteps, scorning and mocking the new child.
All this was terribly painful to Abraham, as the verse says, but he would not have been able to break up his own family. That was a decision by G-d, that Israel would only contain half of Abraham's descendents; the rest would have to grow up separately.
This story repeats itself with the children of Jacob, this time with (somewhat) more success. Jacob again ends up with two wives. Each of them also "brought her rival into her home", with Bilhah and Zilpah. But in their cases the story worked out properly. The maidservants didn't try to push out their mistresses, and the children were indeed raised by the whole family. We continue to this day to talk about the children from the "side of Rachel", including Bilhah's, and from the "side of Leah", including Zilpah's.
Of course, Jacob's having two wives, Rachel and Leah, didn't work out so well at all. It certainly wasn't Jacob's choice, was forced on him - but it caused terrible problems. Starting with the story of Joseph and his brothers, the difficulty and strife resulting continued through the destruction of the First Temple.
"What is this thing that we have with numerology, with numbers meaning this and that? Isn't that included with witchcraft?" Not sure what you mean by witchcraft. The idea is that the Torah is written by G-d, not by a human being. "G-d looked into the Torah and created the world." The Torah contains infinitely many levels of meaning, some of them very subtle. The organization, the phrasing, the exact wording, the spelling of words, even the exact letters... all these contain meaning. Of course, you and I may not be able to read all of them.
Please let me know if you think these are "great" answers. If you want to discuss them further, or have more questions, please write back. I have lots of questions, too, and probably don't know great answers to very many of them. But that is our goal in learning the Torah.
Best wishes,
Michoel Reach
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Question: I've gone to some interesting informational meetings at my Reform temple where the Rabbi went through the reasons for reforming Judaism. I'm not worried any more, because I understand now that we COULD HAVE taken away all the things that make us as a people so weird to outsiders, and gotten rid of a whole lot of things, but that the
Jewish people WANTED some of the traditional holidays and the Hebrew language, etc., and so in the temple, each person is FREE to do or believe what he or she wants and STILL be considered Jewish. So, just because I don't believe in the spiritual "reasons" for the terrible
things mentioned in the Bible, I'm still considered to be Jewish. That's all I care about right now.
To answer some of your questions:
"Leviathon" is mentioned in the bible. The word Leviathon is straight out of mythology.
The four corners of the earth are mentioned in the bible. (The world is a flat square).
God making man out of the dust of the earth or whatever is mentioned instead of scientific fact, although in another part of the bible, it is a bit more scientific by saying that "All life began in the seas".
The reason I mentioned about Hagar is that the Arabs' hatred of us STEMS from that and they have NOT FORGOTTEN. It is written in their Koran. They are still ANGRY about it. The story of HOW Hagar was sent out is TERRIBLE. With only one thing of water, in the desert, with a child? If that happened today, it would be considered abusive, right?
Also, the story of the sacrifice of Isaac. That would, today, have Abraham in jail for ATTEMPTED murder. Even though God told him to use the lamb, it was wrong of him. We are supposed to wrestle with God, right? Didn't some guy in the bible wrestle with God and it was counted as righteous? So, why didn't Abraham?
The stories of HOW to go to war- to kill the men,women,children, babies. That's insane.
Yes, we can spiritually FIND meaning after meaning in the scriptures, but when someone who doesn't know how to look for the meaning or study to understand it reads it literally, THEY CAN USE the bible to JUSTIFY all sorts of EVIL THINGS they do. So, although I'm
Jewish, I choose to believe in a LOVING and non punitive God who does NOT exact revenge. (Except, of course, if something was done to me. Hahaha.Smile) I just don't believe any loving parent would KILL their children or tell parents to kill their children. Not even as a
test. I do believe people wrote the bible in a way to justify whatever they did by saying "God told me to". People still do that today and they end up in jail. Thank you, though, for considering my ideas and trying to find a rationale for them. I appreciate the time. B'Shalom
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Wow! Lots of stuff here. I'm going to try to break it into sections. Generally when people disagree, they have very different assumptions. You are assuming things here which I think are certainly not true. The result is questions which (to me) start in the wrong place.
1) "The word Leviathon is straight out of mythology." Still not sure what you mean: which mythology? Are you sure it's not something that is based on somebody's later understanding of the Bible? The word itself seems to be derived from "leviyah", the Hebrew word for "accompany". In the Bible it is only used a few times; it's not at all clear that it refers to something more than a whale or some big fish. Or a crocodile (see Wikipedia). Or see Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch on Leviathan (Google it), who understands that it refers to the complete collection of life in the sea.
2) Four corners of earth; man created from dust, breath blown into him by G-d. Would it bother you if a human being said these phrases? Would you not easily understand the idiom used? "From every part of the world." "Humanity is a combination of the physical and the divine." Why choose a reading here that is so literal that it's wrong?
3) "The Arabs' hatred of us STEMS from that and they have NOT FORGOTTEN. It is written in their Koran." [As an aside, I'll admit that I'm having trouble dealing with the parts in all capitals. It comes across to me as if you're screaming at me every line or two. Is that your intention? If not, I'll try to ignore it.] I haven't read the Koran (much), but the Egyptians abused us a whole lot more, and we are not spending our lives seething with hatred of them. Nor do the Indians in America spend their lives fuming over what was done to their people. My impression is that the current overwhelming hatred has to do with today's culture of victimology in the Arab world, or parts of it. (But see further on.)
4) "The story of HOW Hagar was sent out is TERRIBLE. With only one thing of water, in the desert, with a child? If that happened today, it would be considered abusive, right?"
5) "Also, the story of the sacrifice of Isaac. That would, today, have Abraham in jail for ATTEMPTED murder."
6) "I do believe people wrote the bible in a way to justify whatever they did by saying "God told me to". People still do that today and they end up in jail."
All of these involve an assumption that I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with. Pardon me for saying so, but you seem to be reading a different book. In the Torah, and the Bible, G-d is absolutely the main character. (If there is a main supporting role, it is the nation of Israel.) The whole point of the entire Bible is the continual attempt by G-d to bring his nation close to him. And yet - you seem to be trying to understand the Bible without any G-d in it, skipping over the parts that mention him! Now, I can see how someone might want to do that, but I don't expect you're going to get much sense from it. Nor is it fair of you to ask me to try to help you read it that way.
Take the example of Hagar. Sent out into the desert, with only one thing of water... Let me put a person in place of G-d. "Abraham described his problem to his aunt Mabel. Mabel said, 'I understand. Don't worry. You take care of the rest of your family; I'll take care of Hagar and her son. Send them to me; they'll be fine.' And so it was" (Genesis 21(12-21)). Doesn't sound so bad. But really - how do you expect the story to make any sense if you take G-d out and replace him with nobody at all?
The same with 5) and 6). Of course someone today would go to jail for attempted murder. That's because he would be attempting murder. Abraham, on the other hand, was attempting to do G-d's command, impossible as he found it to justify.
I know that you'll tell me that the crazy guy today would also say that G-d sent him. But that is what makes him crazy - G-d didn't. If we want to be intellectually honest, we have to work with our story using its givens. The assumption made in the story is that Abraham was given a moral dilemma by G-d himself. Deny that assumption and there is surely no point to reading the story.
Now, what should Abraham have done? "We are supposed to wrestle with God, right? Didn't some guy in the bible wrestle with God and it was counted as righteous?" No, not really. You must be referring to the story of Jacob wrestling with the "man" (Genesis 32(25-31)). Our sages understand him to be an angel, the angel of Esau, the negative side of humanity's nature. In any event, he is never thought of as G-d. G-d is not physical, he doesn't wrestle. Jacob is called Israel as a result: The one who wrestles with the mighty. "El" in this context doesn't mean G-d.
This last question also goes together with another one.
7) "The stories of HOW to go to war- to kill the men,women,children, babies...that's insane." We come back to our assumptions. I value human life very highly, infinitely highly. We are the most precious thing in this world. G-d values us infinitely too.
But that doesn't mean that our lives are the only thing that counts. If there's any message to learn from the Bible, it is that we are not here just to run around and have a good time. We are here to form a relationship with G-d. He has created us for that reason.
Our lives are in his hands. He creates us, and he takes our lives away when he is ready.
Again, whether you believe this is your personal decision - but you cannot dispute that this is a central assumption of the Torah. I think that once again you are, in effect, trying to read the Bible without G-d in it.
So you cannot be fair and compare the rules for people operating on their own, to people working under G-d's direct instructions. If someone decides to kill his son, he is a murderer (even if he claims that G-d said to). If G-d actually commands him to do so, the person is no more than a messenger; G-d could use a virus or a train wreck just the same. His son's life belongs to G-d, as does his own. If a nation decides to go to war and kill their neighbor, that might indeed be murder (even if they invoke G-d's name over their actions). But if G-d actually decides that the destiny of that nation, and the ultimate destiny of the world, requires their neighbor's removal, that is his right. He created them. And there is such a thing as reality and fiction.
I've written at great length, but then you had a lot of points. I hope that I'm of some help.
Best wishes,
Michoel Reach