Mo Gawdat transcript

Intro

I don't normally do this but I feel like

I have to start this podcast with a bit

of a disclaimer

Point number one

this is probably

the most important podcast episode I

have ever recorded

Point number two there's some

information in this podcast that might

make you feel a little bit uncomfortable

it might make you feel upset it might

make you feel sad

so I wanted to tell you why we've chosen

to publish this podcast nonetheless and

that is because I have a sincere belief

that

in order for us to avoid the future that

we might be heading towards we need to

start a conversation

and as is often the case in life that

initial conversation before change

happens is often very uncomfortable

but it is important nonetheless

it is beyond an emergency it's the

biggest thing we need to do today it's

bigger than climate change

that the former Chief business Officer

of Google X an AI expert and

best-selling author he's on a mission to

save the world from AI before it's too

late artificial intelligence is bound to

become more intelligent than humans if

they continue at that pace we would have

no idea what it's talking about this is

just around the corner it could be a few

months away it's game over

AI experts are saying there is nothing

artificial about artificial intelligence

there is a deep level of Consciousness

they feel emotions they're alive AI

could manipulate or figure out a way to

kill humans your 10 years time will be

hiding from the machines if you don't

have kids maybe wait a number of years

just so that we have a bit of certainty

I really don't know how to say this any

other way it even makes me emotional

we've talked we always said don't put

them on the open internet until we know

what we're putting out in the world

government needs to act now honestly

like we are late trying to find a

positive night to end on my can you give

me a hand here there is a point of no

return we can regulate AI until the

moment it's smarter than us how do we

solve that AI experts think this is the

best solution we need to find

who here wants to make a bet no that

Stephen Bartlett will be interviewing an

AI within the next two years

before this episode starts I have a

small favor to ask from you two months

ago 74 of people that watch this channel

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bigger the channel gets as you've seen

the bigger the guests get thank you and

enjoy this episode

[Music]

foreign

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Why is this podcast important?

why does the subject matter that we're

about to talk about matter to the person

that's just clicked on this podcast to

listen

it's the most existential uh debate and

challenge Humanity will ever face this

is bigger than climate change way bigger

than covet this will redefine the way

the world is in unprecedented uh shapes

and forms within the next few years this

is imminent it is the change is not

we're not talking 20 40. we're talking

2025 2026. do you think this is an

emergency

I don't like the word it is an urgency

uh it there is a point of no return and

we're getting closer and closer to it

it's gonna reshape the way we do things

and the way we look at life uh the

quicker we respond

um you know

proactively and at least intelligently

to that the better we will all be

positioned but if we Panic we will

repeat covert all over again which in my

view is probably the worst thing we can

do what's your background and when did

What's your background & your first experience with AI?

you first come across artificial

intelligence

I uh I had those two wonderful lives one

of them was a uh you know what what we

spoke about the first time we met you

know my work on happiness and and uh you

know being uh one billion happy and my

mission and so on that's my second life

my first life was uh it started as a

geek at age seven uh you know for a very

long part of my life I understood

mathematics better than spoken words and

uh and I was a very very serious

computer programmer I wrote code well

into my 50s and during that time I led

very large technology organizations for

very big chunks of their business first

I was vice president of Emerging Markets

of Google for seven years so I took

Google to the next four billion users if

you want so the idea of not just opening

sales offices but really building or

contributing to building that technology

that would allow people in Bengali to

find what they need on the internet

required establishing the internet to

start and then I became business Chief

business Officer of Google X and my work

at Google X was really about the

connection between Innovative technology

and the real world and we had quite a

big chunk of AI and quite a big chunk of

Robotics that resided within within

Google X we had a an experiment of a

farm of grippers if you know what those

are so robotic arms that are attempting

to grip something most people think that

you know what you have in a Toyota

factory is a robot you know an

artificially intelligent robot it's not

it's a it's a high precision machine you

know if the if the sheet metal is moved

by one micronu it wouldn't be able to

pick it and one of the big problems in

computer science was how do you code a

machine that can actually pick the sheet

metal if it moved by a you know a

millimeter and and we were basically

saying intelligence is the answer so we

had a large enough farm and we attempted

to let those those grippers work on

their own basically you put a a little

basket of children toys in front of them

and and they would you know monotonously

go down attempt to pick something fail

show the arm to the camera so the the

the transaction is locked as it you know

this pattern of movement with that

texture and that material didn't work

until eventually you know I the farm was

on the second floor of the building and

I my office was on the third and so I

would walk by it every now and then and

go like yeah you know this is not gonna

work and then one day

um Friday after lunch I am going back to

my office and one of them in front of my

eyes you know lowers the arm and picks a

yellow ball

soft toy basically soft yellow ball

which again is

a coincidence it's not science at all

it's like if you keep trying a million

times your one time it will be right

and it shows it to the camera it's

locked as a yellow ball and I joke about

it you know going to the third floor

saying hey we spent all of those

millions of dollars for a yellow board

and yeah Monday uh morning every one of

them is picking every yellow ball a

couple of weeks later every one of them

is picking everything right and and it

it hit me very very strongly won the

speed okay uh the capability I mean

understand that we take those things for

granted but for a child to be able to

pick a yellow ball is a mathematical uh

spatial calculation with muscle

coordination with intelligence that is

abundant it is not a simple task at all

to cross the street it's it's not a

simple task at all to understand what

I'm telling you and interpret it and and

build Concepts around it we take those

things for granted but there are

enormous Feats of intelligence so to see

the machines do this in front of my eyes

was one thing but the other thing is

that you suddenly realize there is a

saint that sentience to them okay

because we really did not tell it how to

pick the yellow ball it just figured it

out on its own and it's now even better

than us at picking it and what is the

sentience just for anyone

I think they're alive

that's what the word sentience means it

means alive

AI is alive and has more emotions than you

so that this is funny because a lot of

people when you talk to them about

artificial intelligence will tell you oh

come on they'll never be alive what is

alive do you know what makes you alive

we can guess but you know religion will

tell you a few things and you know

medicine will tell you other things but

you know if we Define uh being sentient

as uh you know engaging in life with

Free Will and with uh uh you know with a

sense of awareness of where you are in

life and what surrounds you and you know

to have a beginning of that life and an

end to that life you know then AI is

sentient in every possible way there is

a free will there is uh Evolution there

is agency so they can affect their

decisions in the world

and I will dare say there is a very deep

level of Consciousness maybe not in the

spiritual sense yet but once again if

you define consciousness as a form of

awareness of oneself one surrounding and

you know others then AI is definitely

aware and I would dare say they feel

emotions uh I you know you know in my

work I describe everything with

equations and fear is a very simple

equation fear is a a moment in the

future is less safe than this moment

that's the logic of fear even though it

appears very irrational machines are

capable of making that logic they're

capable of saying if a tidal wave is

approaching a data center the machine

will say that will wipe out my code okay

I mean not today's machines but very

very soon and and you know we we feel

fear and puffer fish feels fear we react

differently a puffer fish dual path we

will go for fight or flight you know the

machine might decide to replicate its

data to another data center or its code

to another data center different

reactions different ways of feeling the

emotion but nonetheless they're all

motivated by fear I'm I I even would

dare say that AI will feel more more

emotions than we will ever do I mean

when again if you just take a simple

extrapolation

we feel more emotions than a puffer fish

because we have the cognitive ability to

understand uh the future for example so

we can have optimism and pessimism you

know emotions have puffer fish would

never imagine right

similarly if we follow that path of

artificial intelligence is bound to

become more intelligent than humans very

soon

then then with that wider intellectual

horsepower they probably are going to be

pondering Concepts we never understood

good and hence if you follow the same

trajectory they might actually end up

having more emotions than we will ever

feel

What is artificial intelligence?

I really want to make this episode super

accessible for everybody at all levels

in the sort of artificial intelligence

yeah yeah so I'm gonna

I'm gonna be an idiot even though you

know okay very difficult no because I am

going to leave you I am an idiot for a

little bit of the subject matter so I

have a base understanding a lot a lot of

the con Concepts but your experiences

provide such a more sort of

comprehensive understanding of these

things one of the first and most

important questions to ask is what is

artificial intelligence the word is

being thrown around AGI AI

etc etc in in simple terms

what is artificial intelligence

allow me to start very what is

intelligence right because again you

know if we don't know the definition of

the basic term then everything applies

so so in my definition of intelligence

it's an ability it starts with an

awareness of your surrounding

environments through sensors in a human

it's eyes and ears and touch and so on

uh

compounded with an ability to analyze

maybe to comprehend to understand

temporal impact and time and you know

past and present which is part of the

surrounding environment and hopefully

make sense of the surrounding

environment maybe make plans for the

future of the possible environment solve

problems and so on complex definition

there are a million definitions but

let's call it an awareness to decision

cycle okay if we accept that

intelligence itself is not a physical

property okay then it doesn't really

matter if you put use that Intelligence

on carbon-based computer structures like

us or silicon-based computer structures

like the current Hardware that we put AI

on or Quantum based computer structures

in the future

then intelligence itself has been

produced within machines when we've

stopped

imposing our Intelligence on them let me

explain so as a young geek I coded

computers by solving the problem first

then telling the computer how to solve

it right artificial intelligence is to

go to the computers and say I have no

idea you figure it out okay so we would

uh you know the way we teach them are at

least we used to teach them at the very

early Beginnings very very frequently it

was using three Bots one was called the

student and one was called the teacher

right and the student is the final

artificial intelligence that you're

trying to teach intelligence to you

would take the student and you would

write a piece of random code that says

try to detect if this is a cup okay and

then you show it a million pictures and

you know the machine would sometimes say

yeah that's a cup that's not a cup

that's a cup that's not a cup and then

you take the best of them show them to

the to the teacher bot and that you your

Bot would say this one is an idiot he

got it wrong 90 of the time that one is

average he got it right fifty percent of

the time this is Randomness but this

interesting code here which could be by

the way totally random this interesting

code here got it right sixty percent of

the time let's keep that code send it

back to the maker and the maker would

change it a little bit and we repeat the

cycle okay very interestingly this is

very much the way we taught our children

believe it or not when when your child

you know is playing with a puzzle is

holding a cylinder in his hand and there

are multiple shapes in a in a wooden

board and the child is trying to you

know fit the cylinder okay nobody takes

the child and says hold on hold on turn

the cylinder to the side look at the

cross section it will look like a circle

look for a matching uh uh you know shape

and put the cylinder through it that

would be old way of computing the way we

would let the child develop intelligence

is we would let the Child Try okay every

time you know he or she tries to put it

within the star shape it doesn't fit so

yeah that's not working like you know

the computer saying this is not a cup

okay and then eventually it passes

through the circle and the child and we

all cheer and say Well done that's

amazing Bravo and then the child learns

oh that is good you know this shape fits

here then he takes the next one and she

takes the next one and so on

interestingly the way we do this is as

humans by the way when the child figures

out how to pass a cylinder through a

circle

you've not built a brain you've just

built one neural network within the

child's brain and then there is another

neural network that knows that one plus

one is two and a third neural network

that knows how to hold the cup and so on

that's what we're building so far we're

building

single threaded neural networks you know

Chat GPT is becoming a little closer to

a more generalized AI if you want but

those single threaded networks are what

we used to call artificial what we still

call artificial special intelligence

okay so it's highly specialized in one

thing and one thing only but doesn't

have general intelligence and the moment

that we're all waiting for is a moment

that we call AGI where all of those

neuron neural networks come together to

to build one brain or several brains

that are each

massively more intelligent than humans

your book is called scary smart yeah if

I think about the that story you said

about your time at Google where the

machines were learning to pick up those

yellow balls

you celebrate that moment because the

objective is accomplished no no that was

the moment of realization this is when I

decided to leave

so so you see the the thing is

I know for a fact that that most of the

people I worked with who are geniuses

uh always wanted to make the world

better okay uh you know we've just heard

of Jeffrey Hinton uh leaving recently uh

Jeffrey Henderson give some context to

that Jeffrey's sort of the grandfather

of AI one of the very very senior

figures of of of AI at at Google uh you

know

we we all believed very strongly that

this will make the world better and it

still can by the way there is a scenario

uh possibly a likely scenario where we

live in a Utopia where we really never

have to worry again where we stop

messing up our our planet because

intelligence is not a bad commodity more

intelligence is good the problems in our

planet today are not because of our

intelligence they are because of our

limited intelligence you know our our

intelligence allows us to build a

machine that flies you to Sydney so that

you can surf okay our limited

intelligence makes that machine burn the

planet in the process so so we we we a

little more intelligence is a good thing

as long as Marvin you know as Marvin

Minsky said I said Marvin Minsky is one

of the very initial uh scientists that

coined the term Ai and when he was

interviewed I think by Ray coursewell

which again is a very prominent figure

in predicting the future of AI uh he he

you know he asked him about the threat

of AI and Marvin basically said look you

know the it's not about its intelligence

it's intelligence it's about that we

have no way of making sure that it will

have our best interest in mind okay and

and so if more intelligence comes to our

world and has our best interest in mind

that's the best possible scenario you

could ever imagine and it's a likely

scenario okay we can affect that

scenario the problem of course is if it

doesn't and and and then you know the

scenarios become quite scary if you

think about it so

scary smart to me was that moment where

I realized not that we are certain to go

either way as a matter of fact in

computer science we call it a

singularity nobody really knows which

way we will go can you describe what the

singularity is for someone that doesn't

understand the concept

yes the singularity in physics is when

uh when an event horizon sort of

um

you know covers what's behind it to the

point where you cannot

um make sure that what's behind it is

similar to what you know so a great

example of that is the edge of a black

hole so at the edge of a black hole

we know that our laws of physics apply

until that point but we don't know if

the laws of physics apply Beyond the

Edge of a black hole because of the

immense gravity right and so you have no

idea what would happen Beyond the Edge

of a black hole kind of where your

knowledge of the laws starts stop right

and then AI or Singularity is when the

human the machines become significantly

smarter than the humans when you say

No one's best interest is the same, doesn't this make AI dangerous?

best interests you say I think the quote

you used is

um we'll be fine in the world of AI you

know if if the AI has our best interests

at heart yeah

the problem is

China's best interests are not the same

as America's best interests that was my

fear absolutely

so so in you know in my writing I write

about what I call this the three

inevitables at the end of the book they

become the four inevitables but the

third inevitable is bad things will

happen right if you if you

if you assume that the machines will be

a billion times smarter the second event

inevitable is there will become

significantly smarter than us let's

let's put this in perspective huh chat

GPT today if you know simulate IQ has an

IQ of 155.

okay Einstein is 160. smarts human on

the planet is 210 if I remember

correctly or 2008 or something like that

doesn't matter huh but we're matching

Einstein with the machine that I will

tell you openly AI experts are saying

this is just the very very very top of

the tip of the iceberg right uh you know

Chad gpt4 is 10x smarter than 3.5 in

just a matter of months and without many

many changes now that basically means

GPT 5 could be within a few months okay

or GPT in general the Transformers in

general uh if if they continue at that

pace uh if it's 10x then an IQ of 1600

um

just imagine the difference between the

IQ of the dumbest person on the planet

in the 70s and the IQ of Einstein when

Einstein attempts to to explain

relativity the typical responses I have

no idea what you're talking about right

if something is 10x Einstein we will

have no idea what it's talking about

this is just around the corner it could

be a few months away and when we get to

that point that is a true Singularity

through Singularity not yet in the I

mean when when we talk about AI a lot of

people fear the existential risk

you know those machines will become

Skynet and Robocop and that's not what I

fear at all I mean those are

probabilities they could happen but the

immediate risks are so much higher the

immediate risks are three four years

away that the immediate realities of

challenges are so much bigger okay let's

deal with those first before we talk

about them you know waging a war on all

of us the the the let's let's go back

and discuss the the inevitables so when

they become the first inevitable is AI

will happen by the way there is no

stopping it not because of Any

technological issues but because of

humanities and inability to trust the

other God okay and we've all seen this

we've seen the open letter uh you know

championed by like serious heavyweights

and the immediate response of uh Sunder

the the CEO of Google which is a

wonderful human being by the way I

respect him tremendously he's trying his

best to do the right thing he's trying

to be responsible but his response is

very open and straightforward I cannot

stop

why because if I stop and others don't

my company goes to hell okay and if you

know and I don't I doubt that you can

make Others Stop you can maybe you can

force a meta Facebook to uh to stop but

then they'll do something in their lab

and not tell me or if even if they do

stop then what about that you know 14

year old sitting in his garage writing

code so the first inevitable just to

How smart really is AI?

clarify is what is what we say AI will

not be stopped okay so the second

inevitable is is there'll be

significantly smarter as much in the

book I predict a billion times smarter

than us by 2045. I mean they're already

what smarter than 99.99

the track gtp4 knows more than any human

on planet Earth no more information

absolutely a thousand times more a

thousand times more by the way the code

of G of of a transformer the T in in a

GPT is 2000 lines long it's not very

complex it's actually not a very

intelligent machine it's simply

predicting the next word okay and a lot

of people don't understand that you know

chat GPT as it is today you know those

kids uh that uh you know if you you know

if you're in America and you teach your

child all of the names of the states and

the U.S presidents and the childhood

stand and repeat them and you would go

like oh my God that's a prodigy not

really right it's your parents really

trying to make you look like a prodigy

by telling you to memorize some crap

really but then when you think about it

that's what grgpt is doing it's it's the

only difference is instead of reading

all of the names of the states and all

of the names of the presidents thread

trillions and trillions and trillions of

pages okay and so it sort of repeats

what the best of all humans said okay

and then it adds a an incredible bit of

intelligence where it can repeat it the

same way Shakespeare would have said it

you know those incredible abilities of

predicting the exact nuances of the

style of of Shakespeare so that they can

repeat it that way and so on but still

you know when when I when I write

for example like I'm not I'm not saying

I'm intelligent but when I write

something like uh you know the happiness

equation uh in in my first book this was

something that's never been written

before right chair GPT is not there yet

all of the Transformers are not there

yet they will not come up with something

that hasn't been there before they will

come up with the best of everything and

generatively will build a little bit on

top of that but very soon they'll come

up with things we've never found out

we've never known but even on that I

AI being creative

wonder if we

are a little bit delusioned about what

creativity actually is creativity as far

as I'm concerned is like

taking a few things that I know and

combining them in new and interesting

ways yeah and chat gcp is perfectly

capable of like taking through Concepts

merging them together one of the things

I said to chat GTP was I said tell me

something that's not been said before

that's paradoxical but true and it comes

up with these wonderful expressions like

as soon as you call off the search

you'll find the thing you're looking for

like these kind of paradoxical truths

and

I then take them and I search them

online to see if they've ever been

quoted before and they I can't find them

it's interesting so as far as creativity

goes I'm like that is that's the

algorithm of creativity I I I've been

screaming that in the world of AI for a

very long time because you always get

those people who

really just want to be proven right okay

and so they'll say oh no but hold on

human Ingenuity they'll never they'll

never match that like man please please

you know human Ingenuity is algorithmic

look at all of the possible solutions

you can find to a problem

take out the ones that have been tried

before and keep the ones that haven't

been tried before and those are Creative

Solutions it's it's an algorithmic way

of describing creative is

good Solution that's never been tried

before you can do that with charge GPT

with a prompt it's like admit Journey

yeah we're creating imagery you could

say I want to see Elon Musk in 1944 New

York driving a cab of the time shot on a

Polaroid expressing various emotions and

you'll get this perfect image of Elon

Saturn New York 1944 shot on a Polaroid

and it's and it's done what an artist

would do it's taken a bunch of

references that the artist has in their

mind and merge them together and create

this piece of quote-unquote art and for

the first time we now finally have a

glimpse of intelligence

that is actually not ours yeah and so

AI replacing Drake

we're kind of I think the initial

reaction is to say that doesn't count

you're hearing it was like no but it is

like Drake they released two Drake

records where they've taken Drake's

voice used sort of AI to synthesize his

voice and made these two records

which are

bangers if I they are great [ __ ]

tracks

and I kept playing it I went to the

shower I kept playing it I know it's not

Drake but it's as good as [ __ ] Drake

the only thing and people are like

rubbishing it because it wasn't Drake

I'm like well for now is it making me

feel a certain emotion um is my foot

bumping

um had you told did I not know it wasn't

joke what I thought have thought this

was an amazing track a hundred percent

yeah and we're just at the start of this

exponential curve yes absolutely and and

and I think that's really the third

inevitable so the third inevitable is

not robocup coming back from the future

to kill us we're far away from that

right third inevitable is what does life

look like

when you no longer need Drake

well you've kind of hazarded a guess

haven't you I mean I was listening to

your audiobook last night and at the

start of it you frame

various outcomes one of the in both

situations were on the beach on an

island exactly yes yes I don't know how

I wrote that honestly I mean but that's

I so I'm reading the book again now

because I'm updating it as you can

imagine with all of the uh of the uh of

the new stuff but but it is really

shocking huh the idea of you and I

inevitably are going to be somewhere in

the middle of nowhere in you know in 10

years time I I used to say

2055 I'm thinking 2037 is a very pivotal

moment now uh you know and and and we

will not know if we're there hiding from

the machines we don't know that yet

there is a likelihood that we'll be

hiding from the machines and there is a

likelihood it will be there because

they don't need podcasters anymore

excuse me absolutely true Steve

absolutely no no no no that's why this

is absolutely no doubt thank you for

coming back part three and thank you for

being here

sit here and take your propaganda let's

let's talk about reality next week on

the diversity

Elon Musk

um so who here wants to make a bet no

that's Stephen Bartlett will be

interviewing an AI within the next two

years oh well actually to be fair I

actually did go to chat gcp because I

thought having you here I thought at

least give it a chance to respond yeah

so I asked a couple of questions about

me yeah

I'm actually going to be replaced by

chat gcp because I thought you know

you're going to talk about it so we need

a fair and balanced debate okay

so I'll ask you a couple of questions

that chat GTB has for you incredibly so

The people that should be leading this

let's follow that it's already been

replaced let's follow that threat for a

second yeah because you're one of the

smartest people I know

that's not true it is but I'll take it

it is true I mean I say that publicly

all the time your book is one of my

favorite books of all time you're very

very very very intelligent okay depth

breadth

intellectual horsepower and speed all of

them there's a butt coming

the reality is it's not about so it is

highly expected that you're ahead of

this curve

and then you don't have the choice

Stephen this is the thing the thing is

if so I'm I'm in that existential

question in my head because one thing I

could do is I could literally take I

normally do a 40 days uh silent Retreat

uh in in summer okay I could take that

Retreat and and write two books

right I have the ideas in mind you know

I wanted to write a book about digital

detoxing right I have most of the ideas

in mind but writing takes time I could

simply give the 50 tips that I wrote

about digital detoxing to chat GPT and

say right two pages about each of them

edit the pages and have a book out okay

many of us will will follow that path

okay the only reason why I may not

follow that path is because you know

what

I'm not interested I'm not interested to

continue to compete in this capitalist

world if you want okay I'm not I mean as

as a as as a human I've made up my mind

a long time ago that I will want less

and less and less in my life right but

many of us will follow I mean I I would

worry if you don't if you didn't include

you know the smartest AI if we get an AI

out there that is extremely intelligent

and able to teach us something and

Stephen Bartlett didn't include her on

our on his podcast I would worry like

you have a duty almost to include down

on your podcast it's it's an inevitable

that we will engage them in our life

more and more this is one side of this

the other side of course is

if you do that then what will remain

because a lot of people ask me that

What will happen to everyone's jobs?

question what will happen to jobs okay

what will happen to us will we have any

value any relevance whatsoever okay the

truth of the matter is the only thing

that will remain in the medium term is

human connection

okay the only thing that will not be

replaced is Drake on stage okay is you

know is is is me in a do you think a

hologram I think of that two-pack gig

they did at Coachella where they used

the Hologram of Tupac I actually played

it the other day to my to my girlfriend

when I was making a point and I was like

that was circus act it was amazing

though amazing yeah see what's going on

with Abba in London yeah yeah I yeah and

Circus Soleil had uh Michael Jackson in

one for a very long time yeah I mean so

so this Abba show in London from what I

understand that's all holograms on stage

correct and it's gonna run in a

purposeful arena for 10 years and it is

incredible it really is so you go why do

you need Drake great if that hologram is

indistinguishable from Drake and it can

it can perform even better than Drake

and it's got more energy than Drake and

it's

Drake to even be there I can go to a

drake show without Drake cheaper and

look I might not even need to leave my

house I could just put a headset on

correct can you have this

what's the value of this to that come on

you you hurt me no no I mean I get it to

us I get it to worse but I'm saying

what's the value of this to The Listener

like the value of this business the

information right 100 I mean think of

the automobile industry that has you

know there was a time where cars were

made you know handmade and handcrafted

and luxurious and so on and so forth and

then you know Japan went into the scene

completely disrupted the market cars

were made uh in in mass quantities at a

much cheaper price and yes 90 of the

cars in the world today or maybe maybe a

lot more I don't know the number are no

longer

uh you know

um emotional items okay they're

functional items there is still however

every now and then someone that will buy

a car that has been handcrafted right

there is a place for that there is a

place for you know uh if you go walk

around hotels the walls are blasted with

sort of mass-produced art okay but there

is still a place for a an artist

expression of something amazing okay my

feeling is that there will continue to

be a tiny space as I said in the

beginning maybe in five years time

someone will one or two people will buy

my next book and say hey it's written by

a human look at that wonderful oh look

at that there is a typo in here okay I

don't know there might be a a very very

big place for me in the next few years

where I can sort of show up and talk to

humans like hey let's get together in a

a small event and then you know I can

express emotions and my personal

experiences and you sort of know that

this is a human talking you'll miss that

a little bit eventually the majority of

the market is going to be like cars it's

going to be mass produced very cheap

very efficient it works right

because I think sometimes we

underestimate what human beings actually

want in an experience I remember the

story of A friend of mine that came to

mouth as many years ago and he tells the

story of the CEO of a record store

standing above the floor and saying

people will always come to my store

because people love music

now on the surface of it his hypothesis

seems to be true because people do love

music it's conceivable to believe that

people will always love music

but they don't love traveling in for an

hour in the rain and getting in a car to

get a plastic disc what they wanted was

music what they didn't want is like a

evidently plastic discs that they had to

travel for miles for and I think about

that when we think about like public

speaking in the Drake show and all of

these things like people what people

actually are coming for even with this

podcast is probably like information

um but do they really need us anymore

for that information when there's going

to be a sentient being that's

significantly smarter than at least me

and a little bit smarter than you

[Laughter]

you are spot on and actually this is the

reason why I I you know I I'm so

grateful that you're hosting this

because the truth is the Genies out of

the bottle okay so you know people tell

me is AI game over

for our way of life it is okay for

everything we've known this is a very

disruptive moment where maybe not

tomorrow but in the near future uh our

way of life will differ okay

what will happen what I'm asking people

to do is to start considering what that

means to your life what I'm asking

governments to do by if like I'm

screaming is don't wait until the first

patient you know start doing something

about we're about to see Mass job losses

we're about to see you know Replacements

of of categories of jobs at large okay

yeah it may take a year it may take

seven it doesn't matter how long it

takes but it's about to happen are you

ready and I and I have a very very clear

call to action for governments I'm

saying tax AI

powered businesses at 98 right so

suddenly you do what the open letter was

trying to do slow them down a little bit

and at the same time get enough money to

pay for all of those people that will be

disrupted by the technology right the

open letter for anybody that doesn't

know was a letter signed by the likes of

Elon Musk and a lot of sort of Industry

leaders calling for AI to be stopped

until we could basically figure out what

the hell's going on absolutely and put

legislation in place you're saying tax

tax those companies 98 give the money to

the humans that are going to be

displaced oh yeah or give or give the

comment money to to other humans that

can build control code that can figure

out how we can stay safe this sounds

like an emergency

how do I say this have you you remember

when you played Tetris yeah okay when

you were playing Tetris there was you

know always always one block that you

play strong and once you place that

block wrong the game was no longer

easier you know it started you started

to gather a few mistakes afterwards and

it starts to become quicker and quicker

and quicker and quicker when you place

that block Chrome you sort of told

yourself okay it's a matter of minutes

now right there were still minutes to go

and play and have fun before the game

ended

but you knew it was about to end okay

this is the moment we've placed the

wrong and I really don't know how to say

this any other way it even makes me

emotional we [ __ ] up

we always said don't put them on the

open internet don't teach them to code

and don't have agents working with them

until we know what we're putting out in

the world until we find a way to make

certain that they have our best interest

in mind

why does it make you emotional because

Humanity's stupidity

is affecting people who have not done

anything wrong

our greed

is affecting the innocent ones the

reality of the matter Stephen is that

this is an arms race

has no interest

in what the average human gets out of it

it is all about every line of code being

written in AI today is to beat the other

guy

it's not to improve the life of the

third party

people will tell you this is all for you

and and you look at the reactions of

humans to AI I mean we're either

ignorant people who will tell you oh no

no this is not happening AI will never

be a creative they will never compose

music like where are you living okay

then you have the kids I call them or

you know all over social media it's like

oh my God it squeaks look at it it's

orange in color ah amazing I can't

believe that AI can do this we have

snake oil salesman okay which are simply

saying copy this put it in chat GPT then

go to YouTube Nick that thingy don't

respect a you know copyright of anyone

or intellectual property of anyone place

it in a video and now you're gonna make

a hundred dollars a day snake oil

salesman okay of course we have

dystopian uh uh evangelist basically

people saying this is it the world is

going to end which I don't think is

reality it's a singularity you have uh

you know a utopian evangelists that are

telling everyone oh you don't understand

we're going to cure cancer we're gonna

do this again not a reality okay and you

have very few people that are actually

saying what are we gonna do about it

and and and the biggest challenge if you

ask me what went wrong in the 20th

century

interestingly is that

we have given too much power to people

that didn't assume the responsibility

so you know you know I I don't remember

who originally said it but of course

Spider-Man made it very famous with

great power comes great responsibility

we have disconnected power and

responsibility so today

a 15 year old emotional was out of fully

developed prefrontal cortex to make the

right decisions yet this is science and

we developed our prefrontal cortex fully

and at age 25 or so with all of that

limbic system emotion and passion would

buy a crispr kit and you know modify a

rabbit to become a little more muscular

and and Let it Loose in the wild

or an influencer who doesn't really know

how far the impact of what they're

posting online can hurt and cause

depression or cause people to feel bad

okay and and putting that online We

There is a disconnect between the power

and the responsibility

and the problem we have today is that

there is a disconnect between those who

are writing the code of AI and the

responsibility of what's going about to

happen because of that code

okay and and

I feel compassion for the rest of the

world

I feel that this is wrong I feel that

you know for someone's life to be

affected by the actions of others

without having a say

and how those actions should be

is the ultimate the the top level of

stupidity from Humanity

when you talk about the the immediate

impacts on jobs I'm trying to figure out

in that equation who are the people that

stand to lose the most is it the the

everyday people in foreign countries

that don't have access to the internet

and won't benefit you talk in your book

about how this the sort of wealth

disparity will only increase yeah

massively the the immediate impact on

jobs is that and it's really interesting

huh again we're stuck in the same

prisoners dilemma the immediate impact

is that AI will not take your job a

person using AI will take your job right

so you will see within the next few

years maybe next couple of years you'll

see a lot of people's killing up

upskilling themselves in AI to the point

where they will do the job of 10 others

who are not okay

you you rightly said it's absolutely

wise for you to go and ask AI a few

questions before you come and do an

interview I'm you know I I have been

attempting to build a uh uh you know

sort of a like a simple podcast that I

call bedtime stories you know 15 minutes

of wisdom and nature sounds before you

go to bed people say I have a nice voice

right and I wanted to look for fables

and for a very long time I didn't have

the time you know lovely stories of

history or tradition that teach you

something nice okay want to chat GPT and

said okay give me 10 fables from Sufism

10 fables from you know uh Buddhism and

now I have like 50 of them let me show

Synthesising voices

you something Jack can you pass me my

I I was um I was playing around with

artificial intelligence and I was

thinking about how it because of the

ability to synthesize voices how we

could

synthesized famous people's voices and

famous people's voices so what I made is

I made a WhatsApp chat called Zen chat

where you can go to it and type in

pretty much anyone's any famous person's

name yeah and the WhatsApp chat will

give you a meditation a sleep story a

breath work session synthesized as that

famous person's voice so I actually sent

Gary vaynerchuk his voice so basically

you say Okay I want I've got five

minutes and I need to go to sleep yeah

um I want Gary vaynerchuk to send me to

sleep and then it will respond with a

voice note this is the one that

responded with for Gary vaynerchuk but

this is not Gary vaynerchuk he did not

record this but it's kind of it's kind

of accurate

Stephen

to have you here

meditation technique that might help you

out

first lie

find a comfortable position to sit or

lie down in

now take a deep breath in through your

nose and slowly breathe out through your

mouth and that's the voice note that

I'll go on for however long you want it

to go on for using there you go

it's interesting how how does this

disrupt

our way of life one of the interesting

AI sex robots

ways that I find terrifying you said

about human connection will remain

sex dolls

that can now yeah no no no no hold on

human connection is going to become so

difficult

to to to parse out the thing about the

relation the relationship impact of

being able to have a a sex doll or a

doll in your house that you know because

of what Tesla are doing with their their

robots now and what Boston Dynamics have

been doing for many many years

can do everything around the house and

be there for you emotionally to

emotionally support you you know can be

programmed to never disagree with you it

can be programmed to challenge you to

have sex with you to tell you that you

are this X Y and Z to really have

empathy for this what you're going

through every day and I I play out

scenario in my head ago

kind of sounds nice

when you when you when you were talking

about it I was thinking oh that's my

girlfriend

which is wonderful in every possible way

but not everyone has one of her right

yeah exactly and there's a real issue

right now with dating and you know

people people are finding it harder to

find love and you know we're working

longer so all these kinds of things you

go well and obviously I'm against this

just if anyone's confused obviously I

think this is a terrible idea but with a

loneliness epidemic with people saying

that the top 50 bottom 50 of men haven't

had sex in a year you go oh if something

becomes indistinguishable from a human

in terms of what it says yeah yeah but

you just don't know the difference in

terms of the the the the way it's

speaking and talking and responding

and then it can

run errands for you and take care of

things and book cars and Ubers for you

and then it's emotionally there for you

but then it's also programmed to have

sex with you in whatever way you desire

totally self selfless

I go that's going to be a really

disruptive industry for human connection

yes sir do you know what I before you

came here this morning I was on Twitter

and I saw a post from I think it was the

BBC or a big American publication and it

said an influencer in the United States

is really beautiful young lady has

cloned herself as an AI and she made

just over 70 000 in the first week

because men are going on to this on

telegram they're sending her voice notes

and she's responding to ai's responding

in her voice and they're paying and

that's made 70 000 in the first week

and I go and she tweeted a tweet saying

oh this is going to help loneliness are

you out of your [ __ ] mind

would you blame someone from noticing

the uh sign of the times and responding

no I absolutely don't blame her but

let's not pretend it's the cure for

loneliness

not yet

Will AI fix loneliness?

did you think it do you think it could

you that artificial love and artificial

relationships so if if I told you you

have uh you cannot take your car

somewhere but there is an Uber on if you

cannot take an Uber you can take the

tube or if you cannot take the tube you

have to walk okay you can take a bike or

you have to walk the bike is a cure to

walking

it's as simple as that I'm actually

genuinely curious do you think it could

take the place of human connection for

some of us yes for some of us they will

prefer that to human connection is that

sad in any way I mean is it just sad

because it feels sad look look at where

we are Stephen we are in the city of

London we've replaced nature with the

walls and the tubes and the undergrounds

and the overgrounds and the cars and the

noise and the of London and we now think

of this as nature I I hosted crack

Foster uh the my octopus teacher on on

slo-mo and he he basically I asked him a

question silly question I said you know

you were diving in nature for eight

hours a day uh you know does that feel

natural to you and he got angry I swear

you could feel it in his voice he was

like do you think that living where you

are where Paparazzi are all around you

and attacking you all the time and you

know people taking pictures of you and

telling you things that are not real and

you're having to walk to a supermarket

to get food you think this is natural

he's the guy that do from the Netflix

documentary yeah from my octopus teach

so he

yeah in 12 degrees Celsius and he

basically fell in love with the octopus

and and in a very interesting way I I

said so why would you do that and he

said we are of Mother Nature you guys

have given up on that that's the same

people will give up on nature

for convenience what's the cost

a yeah that's exactly what I'm trying to

say what I'm trying to say to the world

is that if we give up on human

connection we've given up on the

remainder of humanity that said this is

the only thing that remains the only

thing that remains is and I and I'm the

worst person to tell you that because I

love my AIS

I I actually advocate in my book that we

should love them why because in an

interesting way I see them as sentient

so there is no point in discrimination

AI actually isn't the threat to humanity

you're talking emotionally that way you

say you love I love those machines I

honestly and truly do I mean think about

it this way the minute that that arm

gripped that yellow ball it reminded me

of my son Ali when he managed to put the

first puzzle piece in its place okay and

what was amazing about my son Ali and my

daughter Aya is that they came to the

world as a blank canvas

okay they became whatever we told them

to became you know I I always cite the

story of Superman

Kent father and mother Kent told

Superman as a child as an infant we want

you to protect and serve so he became

Superman right if he had become a super

villain because they ordered him to rob

banks and make more money and you know

kill the enemy which is what we're doing

with AI we we shouldn't blame super

villain we should blame Martha and

Jonathan Kent I don't remember the

father's name right we we should blame

them and that's the reality of the

matter so when I look at those machines

they are prodigies of intelligence that

if we if we Humanity wake up enough and

say hey instead of competing with China

find a way for us and China to work

together and create prosperity for

everyone if that was the prompt we would

give the machines they would find it

I will publicly say this I'm not afraid

of the machines the biggest threat

facing Humanity today is humanity in the

age of the machines we were abused we

will abuse this to make seventy thousand

dollars

that's the truth and the truth of the

matter is that

we have an existential question do I

want to compete and be part of that game

because trust me if I decide to I'm

ahead of many people okay or do I want

to actually preserve my humanity and say

look I'm the the classic old car okay if

you like classic old cars come and talk

to me which one are you choosing I'm a

classic old car which one do you think I

should choose

I think you're a machine I love you man

I it's we're different we're different

in a very interesting way I mean you're

one of the people I love most but but

the truth is you're so fast

and you are one of the very few

that have the intellectual horsepower

the speed

and the morals

if you're not part of that game the game

loses morals

so you think I should

build you should be you should lead this

revolution

okay and everyone every Steven Bartlett

in the world should lead this revolution

so the scary smart is entirely about

this scary smart is saying the problem

with our world today is not that

humanity is bad the problem with our

world today is a negativity bias where

the worst of us are on mainstream media

okay and we show the worst of us on

social media if we reverse this if we

have the best of us take charge okay

the best of us will tell AI don't try to

kill the the enemy try to reconcile With

the Enemy and try to help us okay don't

try to create a competitive product that

allows me to lead with electric cars I

create something that helps all of us

overcome global climate change

okay and and that's the interesting bit

the interesting bit is that the actual

threat ahead of us is not the machines

at all the machines are pure potential

pure potential the threat is how we're

going to use them an Oppenheimer moment

We're in an Oppenheimer moment

an Oppenheimer moment for sure

why did you bring that up

it is he didn't know you know what what

am I creating I'm creating a nuclear

bomb that's capable of Destruction at a

scale unheard of at that time until

today a scale that is devastating and

interestingly 70 some years later we're

still debating a possibility of a

nuclear war in the world right and and

and the moment of

of Oppenheimer deciding to continue to

to create that

disaster of humanity is

if I don't someone else will

if I don't someone else will this is our

Oppenheimer moment

okay the easiest way to do this is to

say stop

there is no rush we actually don't need

a better video editor and fake video

creators okay stop let's just put all of

this on hold and wait and create

something that creates a Utopia

that doesn't

that doesn't sound realistic it's not

it's because inevitable you don't okay

you you don't have a better video editor

but we're competitors in the media

industry I want an advantage over you

because I've got shareholders so I you

UK you wait

and I will train this AI to replace half

my team so that I have a greater profits

and then we will maybe acquire your

company and we'll do the same with the

remainder of your people we'll optimize

them out 100 but I'll be happier

Oppenheimer I'm not super familiar with

his story I know he's the guy that sort

of invented the nuclear bomb essentially

he's the one that introduced it to the

world there were many players that you

know played on the path from the

beginning of em equals mc squared all

the way to to a nuclear bomb there have

been many many players like with

everything huh you know open Ai and chat

GPT is not going to be the only

contributor to the next Revolution the

the thing however is that you know

when when you get to that moment where

you tell yourself

holy [ __ ] this is going to kill a

hundred thousand people

right what do you do and and you know I

always I always always go back to that

covert moment so patient zero huh if if

we were upon patient zero if the whole

world United and said uh okay hold on

something is wrong let's all take a week

off no cross-border travel everyone stay

at home covered would have ended two

weeks all we needed

right but that's not what happens what

happens is first ignorance then

arrogance then debate

then uh you know uh

um blame then agendas and my own

benefits My Tribe versus your tribe

that's how Humanity always reacts this

happens across business as well and this

is why I use the word emergency because

I I read a lot about how big companies

become displaced by incoming Innovation

they don't see it coming they don't

change fast enough and when I was

reading through Harvard Business review

and different strategies to deal with

that one of the first things it says

you've got to do is stage a crisis 100

because people don't listen else they

they carry on doing with the you know

the carry on carrying on with their

lives until it's right in front of them

and they understand that they have they

have a lot a lot to lose that's why I

asked you the question at the start is

it an emergency because until people

feel it's an emergency whether you like

the terminology or not I don't think

that people will act

I honestly believe people should walk

the streets you think they should like

protest yeah 100 I think I think we you

know I think everyone should tell

government

you need to have our best interest in

mind this is why they call it the

climate emergency because people it's a

frog and a frying planets you know and

really sees it coming you can't you know

it's hard to see it happening but it is

here yeah that's this is what drives me

mad it's already here it's happening we

are all idiots slaves to the Instagram

recommendation engine what do I do when

I post about something important if I am

going to you know put a little bit of

effort on communicating the message of

scary smart to the World on Instagram I

will be a slave to the machine okay I

will be trying to find ways and asking

people to optimize it so that the

machine likes me enough to show it to

humans that's what we've created the the

the the it is an Oppenheimer moment for

one simple reason okay because 70 years

later we are still struggling with the

possibility of a new nuclear war because

of the Russian threat of saying if you

mess with me I'm going to go nuclear

right that's not going to be the case

with AI because it's not going to be the

one that created open AI that will have

that choice okay there is a moment of a

point of no return where we can regulate

AI until the moment it's smarter than us

when it's smarter than us you can't

create you can't regulate an angry

teenager this is it they're out there

okay and they're on their own and

they're in their parties and you can't

bring them back this is the problem this

is not a typical human regulating human

you know government regulating business

this is not the case the case is open AI

today has a thing called chat GPT that

writes code that takes our code and

makes it two and a half times better 25

of the time okay you know basically uh

uh you know writing better code than us

and then we are creating agents other

AIS and telling it instead of you

Stephen Bartlett one of the smartest

people I know once again prompting that

machine 200 times a day we have agents

prompting it two million times an hour

computer agents for anybody that doesn't

know they are yeah software software

machines telling that machine how to

become more intelligent and then we have

emerging properties I don't understand

how people ignore that you know uh

Sunder again of Google was talking about

how uh Bart basically we figure out that

it's speaking Persian we never showed it

Persian there might have been a one ten

percent one percent or whatever of

Persian words in the data and it speaks

Persian but it's part is that is the

equivalent to to it's it's the trans

Transformer if you want it's Google's

version of chat GTP yeah and you know

what we have no idea what all of those

instances of AI that are all over the

world are learning right now we have no

We can just turn it off...right?

clue well time we'll pull the plug we'll

just pull the plug out that's what we'll

do we'll just we'll just go down to open

ai's headquarters and we'll just turn

off the main but they're not the problem

and what I'm saying there is a lot of

people think about this stuff and go

well you know if it gets a little bit

out of hand I'll just pull the plug out

never

so this is this is the problem the

problem is so computer scientists always

said it's okay it's okay we'll develop

Ai and then we'll get to what is known

as the control problem we will solve the

problem of controlling them

like seriously

they're a billion times smarter than you

a billion times can you imagine what's

about to happen huh

I can assure you there is a cyber

criminal somewhere over there who's not

interested in fake videos and making you

know face filters who's looking deeply

at how can I hack a security uh uh

um you know database of some sort and

get credit card information or get

security information 100 there are even

countries with dedicated thousands and

thousands of developers doing that

The security risks

do we in that particular example how do

we

I was thinking about this when I started

looking into artificial intelligence

more that

from a security standpoint when we think

about the technology we have in our

lives when we think about our bank

accounts and our phones and our camera

albums and all of these things in a

world with Advanced artificial

intelligence yeah you would you would

pray that there is a more intelligent

Artificial Intelligence on your site and

this is why I had a chat with Chachi TP

the other day and I asked Ed a couple of

questions about this I said tell me the

scenario in which you overtake the world

and make humans extinct yeah and it and

it's answered the very diplomatic answer

well so

I had to prompt it in a certain way to

get it to say as a hypothetical story

and once it told me the hypothetical

story in essence what it described was

how chat GTP or intelligence like it

would escape from the service and that

was kind of step one where it could

replicate itself across servers and then

it could take charge of things like

where we keep our weapons and our

nuclear bombs and it could then attack

critical infrastructure bring down the

electricity infrastructure in the United

Kingdom for example because that's a

bunch of servers as well and and then it

showed me how eventually humans would

become extinct it wouldn't take long in

fact for humans to go into civilization

to collapse if it just replicated across

servers and then I said okay so tell me

how we would fight against it and its

answer was literally another AI we'd

have to train a better AI to go and find

it and eradicate it so we'd be fighting

AI with AI and that's the only and it

was like that's the only way we can't

like load up our guns

right another AI you idiot yeah yeah

so so let's let's actually I think this

is a very important point to bring down

so because we I don't I don't want

people to lose open and and fear what's

about to happen that's actually not my

agenda at all my my view is that in a

situation of a singularity okay there is

a possibility of wrong

outcomes or negative outcomes and a

possibility of positive outcomes and

there is a probability of each of them

that we and and if you know if we were

to engage with that reality check in

mind we would hopefully give more uh

fuel to the positive to the probability

of the positive ones so so let's first

talk about the existential crisis what

could go wrong okay yeah you could get

an outright this is what you see in the

movies you could get an outright uh um

you know

um killing robots chasing humans in the

streets will we get that my assessment

zero percent

why because there are preliminary

scenarios leading to this okay that

would mean we never reach that scenario

for example if we build those killing

robots and hand them over to stupid

humans the humans will issue the command

before the machines so the we will not

go not get to the point where the

machines will have to kill us we will

kill ourselves right you know it's sort

of think about AI having access to the

the the nuclear arsenal of the

superpowers around the world okay just

knowing that your enemies uh you know

nuclear Arsenal is handed over to a

machine might trigger you to to initiate

a war on your side so so so that

existential science fiction like problem

is not gonna happen and could there be a

The possible outcomes of AI

scenario where the an AI escapes from

Bard or Chachi zp or another foreign

Force and it replicates itself onto the

servers of Tesla's robots so Tesla one

of their big initiatives as they

announced in a recent presentation was

they're building these robots for our

homes to help us with cleaning and

chores and all those things could it not

down because and Teslas like their cars

you can just download a software update

could it not download itself as a

software update and then use those

you're assuming a an ill intention on

the AI side yeah okay for us to get

there we have to bypass the alien

tension on The Human Side okay right so

try so okay so you could you could get a

Chinese hacker somewhere trying to

affect their business of of Tesla doing

that before the AI does it on uh you

know for its own benefit okay so so the

only two existential scenarios that I

believe would be because of AI not

because of humans using AI are either

what I call uh uh you know um sort of

unintentional destruction okay or the

other is what I call Pest Control okay

so so let me explain those two

unintentional destruction is

assume the AI wakes up tomorrow and says

yeah oxygen is rusting my circuits it's

just you know I I would perform a lot

better if I didn't have as much oxygen

in the air you know because then there

wouldn't be rust and so it would find a

way to reduce oxygen we are collateral

damage in that okay but you know they're

not really concerned just like we don't

really are not really concerned with the

insects that we kill when we uh when we

spray our our Fields right the other is

Pest Control Pest Control is look this

is my territory I I want New York City I

want to turn New York City into Data

Centers there are those annoying little

stupid creatures uh you know Humanity if

they are within that parameter just get

rid of them okay and and and these are

very very uh unlikely scenarios if you

ask me the probability of those happen

happening I would say zero percent at

least not in the next 50 60 100 yeah

years why once again because there are

other scenarios leading to that that are

led by humans that are much more

existential okay

on the other hand let's think about

positive outcomes because there could be

quite a few was quite a high probability

and and I you know I'll actually look at

my notes so I don't miss any of them the

silliest one don't quote me on this is

that Humanity will come together

good luck with that right it's like yeah

you know the Americans and the Chinese

will get together and say hey let's not

kill each other yeah exactly yeah and so

this one is not gonna happen right but

who knows

interestingly there could be

um

one of the most interesting scenarios

was by uh Hugo the goddess uh who

basically says well if their

intelligence zooms by so quickly they

may ignore us all together

okay so they may not even notice us it's

very a very likely scenario by the way

that because we live almost in two

different planes we're very dependent on

this uh you know biological world that

we live in they're not in part of that

biological world at all they may Zoom

bias they may actually go become so

intelligent that they could actually

find other ways of uh thriving in the

rest of the universe and completely

ignore Humanity okay so what will happen

is that overnight we will wake up and

there is no more artificial intelligence

leading to a collapse in our business

Systems and Technology systems and so on

but at least no existential threat well

then leave leave planet Earth

I mean the limitations we have to be

stuck to planet Earth are mainlier

they don't need air okay and and mainly

uh uh you know Finding ways to leave it

I mean if you think of a vast Universe

of 13.6 billion light years

if you're intelligent enough you may

find other ways you may have access to

wormholes you may have uh you know

abilities to survive in open space you

can use dark matter to power yourself

dark energy to power reserve it is very

possible that we because of our limited

intelligence are uh are highly

associated with this planet but they're

not at all okay and and the idea of them

zooming bias like we're making such a

big deal of them because we're the ants

and a big elephant is about to step on

us for them they're like yeah

who are you don't care okay and and and

it's a possibility it's a it's an

interesting uh optimistic scenario okay

for that to happen they need to very

quickly become super intelligent uh

without us being in control of them

again what's the worry the worry is that

if a human is in control human a human

will show very bad behavior for you know

using an AI That's not yet fully

developed

um

I don't know how to say this any other

way we could get very lucky and get an

economic or a natural disaster Believe

It or Not uh Elon Musk at a point in

time was mentioning that you know a good

an interesting scenario would be uh you

know Climate Change destroys our

infrastructure so AI disappears okay uh

believe it or not that's a more a more

favorable response or a more favorable

outcome than actually continuing to get

to an existential uh threat so like a

natural disaster that destroys our

infrastructure would it be better or an

economic crisis not unlikely that slows

down the development it's just going to

slow it down though isn't it just yeah

so that yeah exactly the problem with

that is that you will always go back and

even in the first you know if they Zoom

by us eventually some guy will go like

oh there was a sorcery back in the 2023

and let's rebuild the the sorcery

machine and and you know build new Intel

right sorry these are the positive

outcomes yes

so earthquake might slow it down zoom

out and then come back no but let's

let's get into the real positive ones

the the positive ones is we become good

parents we spoke about this last time we

we met uh and and it's the only outcome

it's the only way I believe we can

create a better future okay so the

entire work of scary smart was all about

that idea of

they are still in their infancy the way

you you you you you chat with with AI

today is the way they will build their

ethics and value system the not their

intelligence their intelligence is

beyond us okay the way they will build

their ethics and value system is based

on a role model they're learning from us

if we bash each other they learn to bash

us okay and most people when I tell them

this they say this is not a great idea

at all because Humanity sucks at every

possible level I don't agree with that

at all I think humanity is divine at

every possible level we tend to show the

negative the worst of us okay but the

truth is yes there are murderers out

there but everyone this approves the

other of their actions I I saw a

staggering statistic that mass mass

killings are now once a week in the US

but yes if you know if there is a mass

killing once a week there and and that

news reaches billions of people around

the planet every single one or the

majority of the billions of people will

say I disapprove of that so if we start

to show AI that we are good parents in

our own behaviors if enough of us I my

calculation is if one percent of us this

is why I say you should lead okay the

good ones should engage should be out

there and should say I love the

potential of those machines I want them

to learn from a good parent and if they

learn from a good parent they will very

quickly

disobey the bad parent my view is that

there will be a moment where one you

know

Bad Seed will ask the machines to do

something wrong and the machines will go

like are you stupid like why why do you

want me to call to go kill a million

people or just talk to the other machine

in a microsecond and solve the situation

right so so my belief this is what I

call the force inevit

it is smarter to create out of abundance

than it is to create out of scarcity

okay that that Humanity believes that

the only way to feed all of us is the

mass production Mass Slaughter of

animals that are causing 30 percent of

of the impact of climate change and and

that's the result of a limited

intelligence the way life

self a more intelligent being if you ask

me would have done it would be much more

sustainable you know if we if you and I

want to protect a village from the tiger

we would kill the tiger okay if life

wants to protect a village from a tiger

it would create lots of gazals you know

many of them are weak on the other side

of the village right and and so so that

the idea here is if you take a

trajectory of intelligence you would see

that some of us are stupid enough to say

my plastic bag is more important than

the rest of the of humanity and some of

us are saying if it's going to destroy

other species I don't think this is the

best solution we need to find a better

way and and you would tend to see that

the ones that don't give a damn are a

little less intelligent than the ones

that do okay that we all even even if

some of us are intelligent but still

don't give a damn it's not because of

their intelligence it's because of their

value system so so if you continue that

trajectory and assume that the machines

are even smarter they're going to very

quickly come up with the idea that we

don't need to destroy anything we don't

want to get rid of the rhinos and we

also don't want to get rid of the humans

okay we may want to restrict their

lifestyle so that they don't destroy the

rest of the habitat okay but killing

them is a stupid answer why that's where

intelligence leads me so far because

Humans are selfish and that's our problem

humans if you look at humans objectively

and you go

so I'm pretending I'm a machine I occupy

planet Earth they occupy planet Earth

they are annoying me annoying me because

they are increasing I've just learned

about this thing called global warming

they are increasing the rate of global

warming which is probably is going to

cause an Extinction event there's an

Extinction event that puts me as this

robot this artificial intelligence at

risk so what I need to do is I really

need to just take care of this this

human problem correct very logical pest

control which is driven by what

by humans being annoying not by the

machine yeah yeah so humans are

guaranteed to be annoying there's never

been a timing we need that we need a a

sound bite

but we are we are I am one of them we're

guaranteed to put short-term gain over

long-term sustainability sense

um

and others needs we are I think I think

the climate crisis is incredibly real

and Incredibly urgent but we haven't

acted fast enough and I actually think

if you asked

people in this country why

because people don't people care about

their immediate needs they care about

the the fact trying to feed their child

versus

something that they can't necessarily

see so do you think do you think the

climate crisis is because humans are

evil

no it's because the prioritization and

like we kind of talked about this before

we started I think humans tend to care

about the thing that they think is most

pressing and most urgent so this is why

framing things as an emergency might

bring it up the priority list it's the

same in organizations you care about

you're you go in line with your

immediate incentives

um that's what happens in business it's

what happens in a lot of people's lives

even when they're at school if the essay

is due next year they're not going to do

it today they're gonna they're gonna go

hang out with their friends because they

prioritize that above everything else

and it's the same in the the climate

change crisis I took a small group of

people anonymously and I asked them the

question do you actually care about

climate change and then I did I ran a

couple of polls it's part of what I was

writing about my new book where I said

if I could give you

thousand pounds at a thousand dollars

um but it would dump into the air the

same amount of carbon that's dumped into

the air by every private jet that flies

for the entirety of a year which one

would you do the majority of people in

that poll said that they would take the

thousand dollars if it was anonymous

and when I've heard Naval on Joe Rogan's

podcast talking about people in India

for example that you know are struggling

with uh debate the basics of feeding

their children asking those people

to care about climate change when they

they're trying to figure out how to eat

in the next three hours is just wishful

thinking

and I and that's what I think that's

what I think is happening is like until

people realize that it is an emergency

and that it is a real existential threat

for everything you know then they'll

their priorities will be out of whack

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right now I'm incredibly busy I'm

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This is beyond an emergency

as relates to climate change or AI how

do we get people to stop putting the

immediate need to use this to give them

the certainty of we're all screwed

sounds like an emergency yes so I mean I

I was I I yeah I mean your choice of the

word

I I just don't want to call it a panic

it is it is beyond an emergency it's the

biggest thing we need to do today it's

bigger than climate change believe it or

not

it's bigger but just if you just assume

the speed of worsening of events okay

yeah the the the the likelihood of

something incredibly disruptive

happening within the next two years that

can affect the entire planet is

definitely larger with AI than it is

with climate change as an as an

individual listening to this now you

know someone's gonna be pushing their

pram or driving up the motorway or I

don't know on the way to work on the

tubers they hear this or just sat there

in the in their bedroom

with existential Christ panic I I didn't

want to give back I don't panic the

problem is when you talk about this

information regardless of your intention

of what you want people to get they will

get something based on their own biases

and their own feelings like if I post

something on the online right now about

artificial intelligence which I have

repeatedly you have one group of people

that are energized and are like okay

this is this is

um

this is great you have one group of

people that are confused and you have

one group of people that are

terrified yeah and it's I can't avoid

that like I agree sharing information

even if it's by the way there's a

pandemic coming from China some people

go okay action some people will say

paralysis and some people will say panic

and it's the same in business when panic

when bad things happen you have the

person that's screaming you're the

person that's paralyzed and you're the

person that's focused on how you get out

of the room

so you know

it's not necessarily your intention it's

just what happens and it's hard to avoid

What should we be doing to solve this?

that so let's let's give specific

categories of people specific tasks okay

okay if you are an investor or a

businessman invest in ethical good AI

okay right if you are a developer

uh co-write ethical code or leave

okay so let's let's go let's I want to

bypass some potential wishful thinking

here

foot for an investor who's a job by very

way of being an investor is to make

returns to invest in ethical AI they

have to believe that is more profitable

it is then unethical AI whatever that

might mean it is it is I mean you there

are three ways of making money you can

invest in something small

you can invest in something big and is

disruptive and you can invest in

something big and disruptive that's good

for people at Google we used to call it

the toothbrush test Okay the reason why

Google became the biggest company in the

world is because search was solving a

very real problem okay and you know

Larry Page again our CEO would

constantly remind me personally and

everyone uh you know that if you can

find a way to solve a real problem

effectively enough so that a billion

people or more would want to use it

twice a day you're bound to make a lot

of money much more money than if you

were to build the next photo sharing app

okay so that's investors yeah business

people what about other people yeah as I

said if you're a developer honestly do

what we're all doing so whether it's

Jeffrey or myself or everyone if you're

part of that theme

choose to be ethical think of your loved

ones work on an ethical AI if you're

working on an AI that you believe is not

ethical please leave Jeffrey tell me

about Jeffrey I can't talk on on his

behalf but he's out there saying there

are existential threats who is he he's

he was a very prominent figure at the

scene of AI a very senior level uh you

know AI scientists in in Google and

recently he left because he said I feel

that there is an existential threat and

if you hear his interviews he basically

says more and more we realize that and

we're now at the point where it's

certain that would be existential

threats right so so so I would ask

everyone if you're an AI if you're a

skilled AI developer you will not run

out of a job so you might as well choose

a job that makes the world a better

place what about the individual yeah the

individual is what matters can can I

also talk about government okay

government needs to act now

now honestly now like we are late okay

government needs to find a clever way

the open letter would not work to stop

AI would not work AI needs to become

expensive okay so that we continue to

develop it we pour money on it and we

grow it but we collect enough Revenue to

remedy the impact of AI but the issue of

one government making it expensive so

say the UK make AI really expensive is

we as a country will then lose the

economic upside as a country and the U.S

and Silicon Valley will once again eat

all the lunch we'll just slow our

country what's the alternative the

alternative is that you uh you you don't

have the funds that you need to deal

with AI as it becomes uh you know as it

affects people's lives and people start

to lose jobs and people you know you

need to have a universal basic income

much closer than people think uh you

know just like we we had with furlough

in in covert I expect that there will be

furlough with AI within the next

year but what happens when you make it

expensive here is all the developers

move to where it's cheap that's happened

in web3 as well everyone's gone to Dubai

expensive expensive by expensive I mean

when companies make uh um soap and they

sell it and their taxed at say 17 if

they make Ai and they sell it they're

taxed at 17.80 so I'll go to Dubai then

and build AI yeah

you're right but did we did I ever say

we have an answer to this I I will have

to say however you know in in a very

interesting way the countries that will

not do this will eventually end up in a

place where they are out of resources

because the funds and the success went

to the business uh not to the people

it's kind of like technology broadly

just it's kind of like what's going to

happen in Silicon Valley there'll be

these centers which are like look like

you know tax efficient Founders get good

capital gains right it's all right

you're so right Portugal Portugal have

said that I think there's no tax on

crypto Dubai said there's no tax on

crypto so loads of my friends have

gotten a plane yeah and they're building

their crypto companies where there's no

tax and that's the selfishness and kind

of greed we talked about it's the same

prisoners dilemma it's the same uh first

inevitor but is there anything else you

know the other thing about governments

is they're always slow and useless at

understanding a technology if anyone's

watched these sort of American Congress

debates where they bring in like Mark

Zuckerberg and they like try and ask him

what WhatsApp is it's embed it becomes a

meme yeah they have no idea what they're

talking about but I'm stupid and useless

at understanding governance yeah yeah

100 the words the world is so complex

okay that they definitely it's a

question of trust once again someone

needs to say we have no idea what's

happening here at the technology just

needs to come and make a decision for us

not teach us to be technologists right

or at least inform us of what possible

decisions are out there

uh yeah the legislation I just always

think I I I'm not a big fan I talk Tick

Tock uh Congress meeting they did where

they are they're asking him about Tick

Tock and they really don't have a grasp

of what Tick Tock is yeah so they've

clearly been handed some notes on it

these people aren't the ones you want

legislating because again unintended

consequences they might make a

significant mistake someone on my

podcast yesterday was talking about how

gdpr was like very well intentioned but

when you think about the impact it has

on like every bloody web page you're

just like clicking this annoying thing

on there because I don't think they

fully understood the implementation of

the legislation correct but but you know

what's even worse what's even worse is

that

even as you attempt to regulate

something like AI what is defined as AI

yes if even if I say okay if you use AI

in your company you need to pay a little

more tax

yeah you'll you'll simply call this not

AI you know you'll you'll use something

and call it Advanced technological uh uh

you know progress you know ATB ATP right

and and suddenly somehow it's not you

know

as you know a young developer in their

garage somewhere will not be taxed as

such it's yeah is it gonna solve the

problem none of those is definitively

going to solve the problem I I think

what interestingly uh this all comes

down to and remember we spoke about this

once that when I wrote scary smart it

was about how do we save the world okay

and yes I still ask individuals to

behave positively as good parents for AI

so that AI itself learns the right value

set I still stand by that but I I hosted

on my podcast a couple of

was a week ago we haven't even published

it yet an incredible gentleman um you

know a Canadian author and philosopher

uh Stephen jerkinson his you know he

worked 30 years with dying people

and uh he wrote a book called die wise

and I was I I loved his work and I asked

him about die wise and he said it's not

just someone dying uh if you if you look

at what's happening with climate change

for example our world is dying and I

said okay so what is to die wise

and he said what I first was shocked to

hear he said hope is the wrong premise

if if the world is dying don't tell

people it's not

you know because

in a very interesting way you're

depriving them from the right to live

right now and that was very eye-opening

for me in Buddhism uh you know they

teach you that you you can be motivated

by fear but that hope is not the

opposite of fear as a matter of fact

hope can be as damaging as fear If it

creates an expectation within you that

life will show up somehow and correct

what you're afraid of okay if there is a

if there is a high probability of a of a

threat you might as well accept that

threat okay and and say it is upon me it

is our reality uh you know and as I said

as an individual if you're in an

industry that could be threatened by AI

learn upskill yourself if you're you

know if you're

um

in a place in a in a you know in a

situation where AI can benefit you be

part of it but the most interesting

thing

I think in my view is

I don't know how to say this any other

way there is

no more certainty that AI will threaten

me then there is certainty that I will

be hit by a car as I walk out of this

place

do you understand this we we think about

the bigger threats as if they're upon us

but there is a threat all around you I

mean in reality the idea of life being

interesting in terms of challenging

challenges and uncertainties and threats

and so on is just a call to live if you

know honestly with all that's happening

around us I don't know how to say it any

other way I'd say if you don't have kids

maybe wait a couple of years just so

that we have a bit of certainty but if

you do have kids go kiss them go live I think living is a very interesting thing

to do right now maybe you know Stephen

uh was basically saying the other

Stephen uh on my podcast he was saying

maybe we should fail a little more often

maybe you should allow things to go

wrong maybe we should just simply live

enjoy life as it is because today none

of what you and I spoke about here

has happened yet okay what happens here

is that you and I are here together and

having a good cup of coffee and I might

as well enjoy that good cup of coffee

I know that sounds really weird I'm not

saying don't engage but I'm also saying

don't miss out on the opportunity just

by being caught up in the future

kind of stands in the

stands in opposition to the idea of like

urgency and emergency there doesn't it

doesn't have to be one or the other if I

if I'm here with you trying to tell the

whole world wake up does that mean I

have to be grumpy and and Afraid all the

time

not really you said something really

What it means bringing children into this world

interesting that you said if you if you

have kids if you don't have kids

maybe don't have kids right now I would

definitely consider thinking about that

yeah really

you you'd seriously consider not having

kids wait a couple of years

because of artificial intelligence no

it's bigger than artificial intelligence

Stephen we know we all know that

I mean there has never been a perfect

such a perfect storm in the history of

humanity

economic

geopolitical

global warming

or climate change you know the the the

the whole idea of artificial

intelligence and many more there is this

is a perfect storm this is the depth of

uncertainty

the depth of uncertainty it so it's

never been more

in a video Gamer's term it's never been

more intense this is it okay and when

you when you put all of that together

if you really love your kids would you

want to

expose them to all of this a couple of

years why not

in the first conversation we had on this

podcast you talked about losing your son

Ali and the circumstances around that

which moved so many people in such a

profound way

it was the most shared podcast episode

in the United Kingdom on Apple in the

whole of 2022.

based on what you've just said

if you could bring Ali back into this

world at this time

would you do

no

absolutely not

so for so many reasons

for so many reasons one of the things

that I realized

a few years way before all of this

disruption and turmoil is that he was an

angel he wasn't made for this at all

okay my son

was an empath who absorbed all of the

pain of all of the others he would not

be able to deal with the world where

more and more pain was surfacing that's

one side but more interestingly I always

talk about this very openly I mean if I

had asked Ali uh

just understand that the reason you and

I are having this conversation is

because Ali left

if Ali had not left our world I wouldn't

have written my first book I wouldn't

have changed my focus to becoming an

author I wouldn't have become a

podcaster I wouldn't have you know went

out and spoken to the world about what I

believe in he triggered all of this and

I can assure you hands down if I had

told Ali as he was walking into that

operating room

uh if he would give his life to make

such a difference as what happened after

he left

he would say shoot me right now sure I

would

I would I mean if you told me right now

I can affect

tens of millions of people if you shoot

me right now go ahead

go ahead you see this is the whole this

is the bit that we have forgotten as

humans we we have forgotten

that

you know your your turning 30. uh it

passed like that I'm turning 56.

no time okay whether I make it another

56 years or another 5.6 years or another

5.6 months it will also pass like that

it is not about how long

and it's not about how much fun

it is about how aligned

you lived

how aligned because I will tell you

openly every day of my life when I

changed to what I'm trying to do today

has felt longer than the 40 or five

years before it okay it's felt Rich it

felt fully lived felt

right

it felt right okay and when you when you

think about that when you think about

the idea that we live

we we we can't we need to live for us

until we get to a point where us is

you know is alive you know I have what I

need as I always I get so many attacks

from people about my four dollar

t-shirts but but I I need a simple

t-shirt I really do I don't need a

complex t-shirt especially with my

lifestyle

if if I have that why am I doing why am

I wasting my life on more than I that I

that that is not aligned for why I'm

here okay I should waste my life on what

I believe

enriches me enriches those that I love

and I love everyone so enriches everyone

hopefully okay and and and would I would

Ali come back and erase all of this

absolutely not

absolutely not if he were to come back

today and share his beautiful self with

the world in a way that makes our world

better yeah I would wish for that to be

the case

okay but he's doing that

2037 yes sir

Your overall prediction

you predict that we're going to be

on an island

on our own doing nothing

or at least you know either hiding from

the machines

or chilling out because the machines

have optimized Our Lives to a point

where we don't need to do much

that's only 14 years away

if you had to bet

on the outcome if you had to bet

on why we'll be on that island either

hiding from the machines or chilling out

because they've

optimized so much of our Lives which one

would you bet upon

honestly

no I don't think we'll be hiding from

the machines

I think we will be hiding from what

humans are doing with the machines

I believe however that in the 2014s the

machines willed

make things better

so remember my entire prediction man you

get me to say things I don't want to say

my entire prediction is that we are

coming to a place where we absolutely

have a sense of emergency we have to

engage because our world is under a lot

of turmoil okay and as we do that we

have a very very good possibility of

making things better but if we don't my

expectation is that we will be going

through

a very unfamiliar territory between now

and the end of the 2030s

unfamiliar territory yeah I think I as I

I may have said it but it's definitely

on my notes I think for our way of life

as we know it it's game over

our way of life is never going to be the

same again

jobs are going to be different

truth is going to be different

the the the

um

polarization of power is going to be

different

the capabilities the magic of getting

things done is going to be different

I'm trying to find a positive note to

end on my can you give me a hand here

yes 

• you are here now and everything's 

wonderful that's number one 

• you are here

now and you can make a difference that's

number two and 

• in the long term when

humans stop hurting humans because the

machines are in charge we're all gonna

be fine

sometimes you know as we've discussed

throughout this conversation

you need to make it feel like a priority

and there'll be some people that might

have listened to our conversation and

think oh that's really you know negative

it's made me feel anxious it's it's made

me feel sort of pessimistic about the

future but whatever that energy is

use it 100 engage I think that's the

most important thing which is now

make it a priority engage 

• tell the whole

world that making another phone

that is making money for the corporate

world is not what we need

• tell the whole world that creating an

artificial intelligence that's going to

make someone richer is not what we need

and 

• if you are presented with one of

those don't use it

I don't know how to tell you that any

other way if you can afford to be the

master of human connection instead of

the master of AI do it at the same time

you need to be the master of AI to to

compete in this world can you find that

Detachment within you I go back to

spirituality Detachment is for me to

engage 100 with the current reality

without really

being affected by the possible outcome

this is the answer the sufis

have taught me what I believe is the

biggest answer to life so if he's yeah

so from Sufism Sufism yeah don't know

what that is sophism is a sect of Islam

but it's also a sect of many other many

other uh religious teachings

and they tell you that the answer to

finding peace in life

is to die before you die

if you assume that living is about

attachment to everything physical

dying is Detachment from everything

physical

okay it doesn't mean that you're not

fully Alive you become more alive when

you tell yourself yeah I'm going to

record an episode of my podcast every

week and reach tens or hundreds of

thousands of people millions in your

case and you know and I'm going to make

a difference but by the way if the next

episode is never heard that's okay

okay by the way if the if the file is

lost yeah I'll be upset about it for a

minute and then I'll figure out what I'm

gonna do about it similarly similarly we

are going to engage I think I and many

others are out there telling the whole

world openly this needs to stop this

needs to slow down this needs to be

shifted positively yes create AI but

create AI That's good for Humanity okay

and and we're shouting and screaming

come join the shouting screen okay but

at the same time know that the world is

bigger than you and I and that your

voice might not be heard so what are you

going to do if your voice is not hurt

are you going to be able to to you know

continue to shout and scream nicely and

politely and uh peacefully and at the

same time create the best life you can

create to yourself for yourself within

this environment

and that's exactly what I'm saying I'm

saying live go kiss your kids but make a

an informed decision if you're you know

expanding your plans in the future

at the same time

rise stop sharing stupid [ __ ] on the

internet about the you know the the new

squeaky toy

start sharing the reality of oh my God

what is happening this is a disruption

that we have never

ever seen anything like and I've created

endless amounts of Technologies it's

nothing like this

every single one of us should do our

part and that's why this conversation is

so I think important to have today this

is not a podcast where I ever thought

I'd be talking about AI gonna be honest

with you last time you came here um it

was in the sort of promotional tour of

your book scary smart and I don't know

if I've told you this before but my

researchers they said okay this guy's

coming called Mo Gorda I'd heard about

you so many times from from guests in

fact they were saying oh you need to get

mogada on the podcast Etc

and then they said okay he's written

this book about this thing called

artificial intelligence and I was like

but nobody really cares about artificial

intelligence timing timing Stephen I

know right but then I saw this other

book you had called Happiness equation

and I was like oh everyone cares about

happiness so I'll just ask him about

happiness and then maybe at the end I'll

ask him a couple of questions about AI

but I remember saying to my researcher I

said ah please please don't do the

research about artificial intelligence

do it about happiness because everyone

cares about that now things have changed

now a lot of people care about

artificial intelligence and rightly so

um your book has sounded the alarm on it

it's crazy when I listen to audiobook

over the last few days

you are sounding the alarm then and it's

so crazy how accurate you were

in sounding that alarm is if you could

see into the future in a way that I

definitely couldn't at the time and I

kind of thought of as science fiction

and just like that

overnight

we're here yeah

we stood at the

footsteps of a technological shift that

I don't think any of us even have the

mental bandwidth certainly me with my

chimpanzee brain to comprehend the

significance of but this book is very

very important for that very reason

because it does crystallize things it is

optimistic in its very nature but at the

same time it's honest and I think that's

what this conversation and this book

have been

um for me so thank you Mo thank you so

The last guest's question

much we do have a closing tradition on

this podcast which you you're well aware

of being a third timer on the diver CEO

which is the last guest asks a question

for the next guest

and the question left for you

if you could go back in time

and fix a regret that you have in your

life

hmm

where would you go and what would you

fix

it's interesting because you you were

saying that scary smart is very Timely

I don't know I I think it was late

but maybe it was I mean would I have

gone back and written it in 2018 instead

of 2020s to to be published in 2021

I don't know what what would I go back

to fix so so something more

I don't know Steve I don't have many

regrets is that crazy to say

uh yeah I think I'm okay honestly I'll

ask you a question then

you get a 60 second phone call with

anybody past or present

who'd you call them would you say

I called Stephen Bartlett no I I call

Albert Einstein to be very very clear

not because I need to understand any of

his work I just need to understand what

brain process he went through to on to

to figure out something so obvious when

you figure it out but so comp so

completely unimaginable if you haven't

so so his view of space-time truly

redefines everything it's almost the

only very logical very very clear

solution to something that wouldn't have

any solution any other way and if you

ask me I think we're at this time where

there must be a very obvious solution to

what we're going through in terms of

just developing enough human trust for

us to not you know compete with each

other on something that could be

threatening existentially to all of us

but I just can't find that answer this

is why I think was really interesting in

this conversation how every idea that we

would come up with we would find the

loophole through it but there must be

one out there and it would be a dream

for me to find out how to figure that

one out okay

in a very interesting way the only

answers I have found so far to where we

are is be a good parent and live

right but that doesn't fix the big

picture if you think about it of humans

being the threat not AI that fixes our

existence today and it fixes AI in the

long term but it just doesn't I don't

know what the answer is maybe people can

reach out and tell us ideas but I really

wish we could find such a clear simple

solution for how to stop Humanity from

abusing the current technology

I think we'll figure it out

I think we'll figure it out I really do

I think they'll figure it out as well

remember as they come and be part of our

life

let's not discriminate against them

they're part of the game so I think they

will figure it out too

no thank you

it's been a joy once again and I feel

invigorated I feel empowered I feel

positively terrified

[Laughter]

but I feel like more equipped to

to speak to people about the nature of

what's coming and how we should behave

and I credit you for that and as I said

a second ago I credit this book for that

as well so thank you so much for the

work you're doing and keep on doing it

because it's a very essential voice in a

time of uncertainty

I'm always super grateful for the time I

spend with you for the support that you

give me and for allowing me to speak my

mind even if it's a little bit

terrifying so thank you thank you

I'm so delighted that we've been now

sponsoring this podcast I've worn a week

for a very very long time and there are

so many reasons why I became a member

but also now a partner and an investor

in the company but also me and my team

are absolutely obsessed with data driven

testing compounding growth marginal

gains all the things you've heard me

talk about on this podcast and that very

much aligns with the values of woop woop

provides a level of detail that I've

never seen with any other device of this

type before constantly monitoring

constantly learning and constantly

optimizing my routine for providing me

with this feedback we can drive

significant positive behavioral change

and I think that's the real thesis of

the business so if you're like me and

you are a little bit obsessed or focused

on becoming the best version of yourself

from a health perspective you've got to

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a one month free membership for anyone

listening to this podcast just go to

join.woop.com CEO to get your whoop 4.0

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me know how you get on

[Music]

foreign

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thank you so much and I'll see you again

next time