Eocene

Mr. Oard’s “Diagnostic Criteria” Fallacy and the Rejected Eocene Glaciations

Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.

May 4, 2014; Updated April 5, 2022

Mr. Oard is Behind the Times on Glacial “Diagnostic” Criteria

Young-Earth creationist (YEC) Oard (1997; 2008b; 2009a, p. 112, 118-119; 2019; 2020a, p. 10; 2020b, p. 12) continues to promote the outdated belief that modern geologists still use a small number of “diagnostic criteria” to identify glacial deposits in the geologic record. After setting up this strawperson fallacy, Oard (1997; 2008b; 2009a; 2019; 2020a; 2020b) argues that because mass flows are capable of producing striations, dropstones, and other “diagnostic” features of glacial deposits, then mass flows from Noah’s Flood are just as plausible an explanation for the origin of the rocks as pre-Pleistocene glaciations.

Oard (2008b, p. 6) identifies “three main diagnostic” features that he believes modern geologists commonly use to identify ancient glacial deposits: 1) striated and/or facetted rocks; 2) striated rock surfaces, and 3) dropstones in varvites. When referring to these three criteria, Oard (2008b, p. 6) makes the following outdated claim:

“Most geologists have considered these diagnostic features as ‘proof’ of an ancient ice age.”

Mr. Oard’s claims about “most” geologists using a few diagnostic features to identify glacial deposits might have been true in 1940. However, Oard (1997; 2008b; 2009a; 2019; 2020a; 2020b) is woefully behind the times in how he believes geologists currently identify the depositional environment of a sedimentary rock. Before he finally accepted the reality of at least some pre-Pleistocene glaciations in Young, Williams and Schermerhorn (1976), Schermerhorn (1971; 1974) taught geologists to consider alternative hypotheses and more detailed evidence when identifying glacial deposits in the geologic record. Contrary to the antiquated views of Oard (1997; 2008b; 2009a; 2019; 2020a; 2020b), the days are long over when geologists just look at a few striations on an outcrop, some faceted rocks, or a few other “diagnostic” criteria and then make a decision about the depositional environment. That is, modern geologists have learned the lessons of Schermerhorn (1971; 1974). When identifying the depositional environments of sedimentary rocks, geologists observe the rocks in three-dimensions and as many of their properties as possible through facies modeling and other advanced field, laboratory and computer techniques (e.g., El-ghali et al., 2006; Ghienne et al., 2007; Crowell, 1999). Although Oard (2009a) cites Crowell (1999), he fails to mention that at least Crowell (1999, p. v) did a careful reevaluation of pre-Pleistocene deposits that had been previously identified as glacial and considered that they might actually have been mass flows (turbidites, debris flow, slides, etc.):

“Research during and following World War II led to many advances, including a better understanding of sedimentation processes within the seas and oceans, and the realization that sand and coarse gravels were carried into deep waters by turbidity currents and downslope sliding. By the early 1960s I was quite sure that many reported ancient glacial tillites described from far-flung stratigraphic sections over the Earth were probably not glacial in origin, but were debris flows or the result of downslope sliding. I became a disbeliever in some ancient glaciations and launched studies of late Paleozoic stratal sequences in the Southern Hemisphere, believing that would prove to be nonglacial in origin. By the late 1960s, however, I had examined critical sections on Gondwanan continents and became convinced that huge glaciers had indeed scoured across the supercontinent of Gondwana as other geologists had concluded before me.”

Clearly, Crowell (1999) was once skeptical of many pre-Pleistocene glacial deposits. Unlike Mr. Oard, Crowell really looked at the evidence and came to the realization that at least some of these glaciations were real.

Crowell (1999, p. 6) further indicates that the geologists of the 1950s began to recognize the similarities between tillites and mass flow deposits, long before Oard (1997):

“In the 1950s new data and concepts and interpretations as the result of investigations of sedimentation processes, including turbidity currents and processes of deep-water deposition, showed that some stratal units, previously identified as ‘tillites,’ were better identified as ‘tilloids,’ or units that looked glacial in origin but were not.”

Crowell (1999, p. 16) further emphasizes the use of diverse multiple criteria, including facies models, for distinguishing glacial from non-glacial deposits:

“Glaciers are therefore adequately documented only where a facies reconstruction fits together many different types of evidence from several correlated sections and where there is confidence in lateral and time correlations. Facies studies undertaken during recent years are now improving paleogeographic interpretations for several of the ancient ice ages…[long list of references omitted].”

Although striated pavements and other “diagnostic criteria” may be useful, the identification of glacial depositional environments no longer even requires these criteria if facies, geochemical and other evidence is available. Crowell (1999, p. 5) states:

“The intellectual tone in regard to recognizing evidences of ancient glaciation seems to have been characterized by Wegener’s statement (1929, p. 124): ‘Generally, it is usual to regard the rock as certainly glacial only if one has been able still to detect the polished surface of the outcrop under the boulder clay of the ground moraine.’ For several decades thereafter, the view prevailed that only if such criteria could be firmly documented, was a glacial episode confirmed. Long after Wegener’s time, prudent geological conservatism dictated that a glacial explanation was acceptable only with such indisputable evidence at hand. I now maintain that such a view is unwarranted. As outlined below, investigators now have many more criteria to document an ancient ice age. The documentation of glacial events comes in addition from the identification of widespread glacial facies and geochemical proxies showing coolness in dated stratal sequences without an underlying glacial pavement. Nonetheless, all major glacial intervals of the Phanerozoic and Proterozoic are documented someplace on Earth by glacially polished and striated pavements below tillites.”

Fairchild and Kennedy (2007, p. 899) also correctly conclude:

“It continues to be important to document as many sedimentary features commonly associated with glaciation as possible...[references omitted], recognizing that no single feature is diagnostic.”

I was also quite clear in the “Evaluating the Data as a Whole” section of my 1999 essay about the use and limitations of “diagnostic features” in distinguishing glacial from non-glacial deposits:

“Most individuals realize that many glacial textures and structures could under some circumstances be roughly duplicated by faults, meteorite impacts and/or mass flows. As Frakes (1979, p. 83) points out, however, careful studies can distinguish glacial deposits from similar looking non-glacial deposits. For example, superficially eskers and non-glacial stream deposits look a lot alike. However, as Frakes (1979, p. 83) states, there are ways of distinguishing them. Most individuals would argue that if you have numerous, reliable and diverse pieces of evidence for a glaciation, then there probably was a glaciation.

At the same time, Schermerhorn (1974, p. 675) reminds us that a large quantity of weak pieces of evidence for a glaciation will not add up to convincing evidence for that glaciation. That is, just finding a few striations or poorly sorted rocks does not produce conclusive evidence of a glaciation. Quality evidence, and not just quantity, is important. Fortunately, for most pre-Pleistocene glacial deposits, the evidence is convincing and adds up to an impressive argument for the reality of these glaciations. While features, such as nailhead striations, might eventually be found in deposits from meteorite impacts or tectonism, when they’re currently found in abundance in the same area with other glacial-related features, such as eskers and drumlins, the probability is very certain that the deposits are glacial. A collection of multiple, reliable glacial indicators at a site, strengthens the case of glaciation beyond a reasonable doubt.”

I also briefly allude to the effectiveness of facies modeling in my 1999 essay:

"Facies and other sedimentary models actually allow geologists to make predictions about ancient depositional environments and locate the predicted rocks (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 619). The ability of these models to make predictions shows that they’re basically correct."

Furthermore, sometimes evidence for glaciations is indirect. For example, Carboniferous sediment cyclotherms often correspond to glaciations (Crowell 1999, p. 20). The waning and waxing of Late Paleozoic glaciers caused noticeable sea level changes in distant coastal sediments.

So, geologists realize that if an animal has feathers like a duck, quacks like a duck, has a bill like a duck, flies like a duck, and likes water, that does not mean that we should just look at the “diagnostic features” of the animal’s bill and its fondness for water, ignore the other characteristics and claim that we have a duck-bill platypus and that ducks don’t exist. While a mass flow or other nonglacial feature may have some features in common with glacial deposits, when facies analyses involving numerous features commonly or solely associated with glaciers (such as roches moutonnées, glaciotectonic features, primary sand wedge polygons, etc.) are found in the same pre-Pleistocene formation or in the same pre-Pleistocene rocks in an area, then nonglacial processes can be reasonably ruled out and Flood geology remains dead. Also, when geochemical, geomagnetic, paleontological, mineralogical and other data all indicate an ancient cold climate, then Noah’s Flood is simply not a reasonable option. To see how 21^st century geologists actually evaluate the depositional environments of geologic formations, review the essays on Late Precambrian, Ordovician, and Late Paleozoic glaciations at this website and their references.

Long-refuted Eocene “Tillites”

While trying to discredit the ability of geologists to identify pre-Pleistocene glacial deposits, Oard (1997) raises a number of old issues about Eocene and other deposits that some early researchers once misidentified as having glacial origins. However, early 20^th century geologists were not always eager to jump on the pre-Pleistocene glacial bandwagon that Oard (1997) blames geologists for commonly possessing. In response to Oard (1997), I wrote the following in my 1999 essay:

“Oard ([1997), p. 45) also claims that Coleman (1926, p. 82, 93) found 'bullet-shaped' clasts in Permian deposits in England and in an Eocene formation in Colorado, both of which are now known to be non-glacial. In reality, Coleman (1926, p. 82) only mentions that some rocks with 'glacial' shapes were found near Gunnison, Colorado. Coleman (1926) does not state what objective criteria, if any, were used to identify the 'glacial' shapes and no mention is made of 'bullet-shaped' or similar shaped clasts. Coleman (1926, p. 92-93) admits that a majority of geologists, including British geologists, argued that the Permian English deposits had a NON-GLACIAL origin. Although Coleman saw some evidence for glaciation, his guide and local expert on the geology of the area, Mr. Wickham King, did not support a glacial origin for the Permian English breccias. Both King and Coleman (1926, p. 93-94) admit that the striations are consistent with mass flows and not glaciations. As with the Colorado rocks, no specific references are made to 'bullet-shaped' rocks in the English breccias.” [Capitalization in the original]

Another formerly identified Eocene “tillite” is the Black Butte Diamicton of the Gravelly Range of southwest Montana. A diamicton is a poorly sorted clastic sedimentary rock, which typically forms from glaciers (tills) or debris flows, a type of mass flow. In some locations, the Black Butte Diamicton lies on striated rock pavements. Excellent photographs of the poorly sorted rock with its striated pavement are shown in Oard (2009a, Figure 5, p. 118) and Oard (2008b, Figure 2, p. 6). While Oard (2009a, pp. 118, 119) only briefly mentions the diamicton, Oard (2008b) provides more details. Oard (2008b) stresses how the Black Butte Diamicton has two of three “major diagnostic features” of ancient glaciations. The diamicton was indeed initially identified as a glacial deposit by Scott (1938) and Atwood and Atwood (1945). However, the “glacial” evidence for the Black Butte “tillite” soon proved to be superficial unlike the extensive and diverse evidence of glaciations in other pre-Pleistocene deposits (e.g., the Late Ordovician of north Africa). Mann (1954) investigated the Black Butte “tillite” and found a surprising lack of features that might be considered to have had a glacial origin:

“It should be added here that striated boulders were not found to be as common in the Black Butte gravel as previous writers seem to indicate. A total of several hours of search by the writer and assistants yielded one good striated boulder and two or three others showing signs of polish or very fine striations.”

After describing the properties of the diamicton (poor sorting, a few faceted and striated cobbles or boulders, etc.), the striations and chattermarks on underlying pavement, and admitting that the characteristics are consistent with glacial deposits, Mann (1954, p. 37) also concluded:

“Similarly, all the above characteristics apply to the deposits of mudflows.”

So, Mann (1954, p. 37) did not embrace Mr. Oard’s fallacious “two diagnostic features” approach. Instead, he concluded that these features were also consistent with an Eocene or Oligocene “mudflow” (also see: Gutmann et al., 1989, p. 420, 417). Because the Black Butte Diamicton is very coarse-grained, Oard (2008b, p. 6) argues that it should be identified as a debris flow rather than a mudflow.

Although Oard (2008b, p. 6) admits that long ago Mann (1954) concluded that the Black Butte Diamicton was nonglacial, Oard (2008b, p. 6) states that Mann’s conclusion was primarily based on expectations of a warm Eocene climate:

“I believe the glacial origin was rejected mainly because the Eocene is supposed to be a period of considerable warmth — much warmer than today.”

Certainly, once he concluded that the diamicton could be a “mudflow” rather than a glacial deposit, Mann (1954) did emphasize the importance of the Eocene paleoclimatic and topographic data in further ruling out a glacial origin. However, it should be stressed that Mann (1954) did not rely on the superficial “diagnostic criteria” procedure that Mr. Oard accuses most geologists of commonly using to identify glacial rocks. Like modern geologists, Mann (1954) recognized that the chattermarks and striations could form from either glaciations or “mudflows.” At the same time, Oard (2008b, p. 6) quotes the following section of Mann (1954, p. 37), but deliberately leaves out a phrase that indicates that Mann (1954) also considered the “nature” or properties of the material in his decision against a glacial origin:

“It is the writer’s opinion that this deposit is probably not a true till. The preponderance of evidence, considering the nature of the material and the physiographic history of the region, points to an origin other than glacial. It is interpreted as a mudflow deposit.” [bolded phrase omitted by Oard 2008b, p. 6]

As indicated by the bolded phrase omitted by Oard (2008b, p. 6) and his other discussions, Mann (1954) considered various data that was available to him to identify the depositional environment of the diamicton, including the “nature” (properties) of the rocks.

Gutmann et al. (1989) is the most recent scientific article that I could locate that substantially discusses the Black Butte Diamicton. Like Mann (1954), Gutmann et al. (1989, p. 419) rejects a glacial origin for the rocks. Besides discussing the nonglacial evidence in Mann (1954), Gutmann et al. (1989, p. 419) also cite Priore (1984) and note that no evidence of microscopic glacial features were found on the quartz grains of the diamicton. The striations and deformation of some of the boulders and cobbles, and the underlying striated pavement could also have been due to tectonic activity, perhaps from an overriding thrust sheet, rather than debris flows (Gutmann et al., 1989, p. 420). Thrust and other types of faults are common in the area (Gutmann et al., 1989). While Oard (2009a, p. 118) is satisfied to call the Black Butte Diamicton a “debris flow”, Gutmann et al. (1989) favored another interpretation - Late Cretaceous or Early Tertiary alluvial fans consisting of remobilized stream sediments. Alluvial fans often, but not always, form in arid and semi-arid climates. Of course, any arid or semi-arid climates would be incompatible with Flood geology.

Considering the methodology of 21^st century geologists and the vast improvements in distinguishing glacial from nonglacial deposits since the 1950s and 1960s (Crowell, 1999, etc.), Mr. Oard needs to abandon his false belief that most geologists rely on a few “diagnostic” criteria or “reinforcement syndrome” to distinguish glacial from nonglacial rocks. Many more independent data were and are used to identify pre-Pleistocene glaciations.

References:

Atwood, W.W. and Atwood, Jr., W.W. 1945. “The Physiographic History of an Eocene Skyline Moraine in Western Montana.” Journal of Geology, v. 53, pp. 191-199.

Blatt, H., G. Middleton, and R. Murray. 1980. Origin of Sedimentary Rocks, 2^nd ed., Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632.

Coleman, A.P. 1926. Ice Ages: Recent and Ancient, AMS Press, New York, USA, 296pp.

Crowell, J.C. 1999. Pre-Mesozoic Ice Ages: Their Bearing on Understanding the Climate System, Geological Society of America Memoir, 192, Boulder, Colorado, USA, 106pp.

El-ghali, M.A.K, H. Mansurbeg, S. Morad, I. Al-Aasm, and K. Ramseyer. 2006. "Distribution of Diagenetic Alterations in Glaciogenic Sandstones with a Depositional Facies and Sequence Stratigraphic Framework: Evidence from the Upper Ordovician of the Murzuq Basin, SW Libya", Sedimentary Geology, v. 190, pp. 323-351.

Fairchild, I.J. and M.J. Kennedy. 2007. “Neoproterozoic Glaciation in the Earth System”, Journal of the Geological Society, London, v. 164, pp. 895-921.

Frakes, L.A., 1979, Climates throughout Geologic Time, Elsevier, New York.

Ghienne, J.-F., D.P. Le Heron, J. Moreau, M. Denis and M. Deynoux. 2007. “The Late Ordovician Glacial Sedimentary System of the North Gondwana Platform” in M.J. Hambrey, P. Christoffersen, N.F. Glasser, and B. Hubbard (editors), I. Montanez (series editor), Glacial Sedimentary Processes and Products, Special Publication No. 39 of the International Association of Sedimentologists, Blackwell Publishing, Malden, Massachusetts, USA, 416pp.

Gutmann, J. T., P. D. Pushkar, and M. C. McKenna. 1989. Late Cretaceous and Tertiary History and the Dynamic Crushing of Cobbles, Black Butte Area, Southwestern Montana. Engineering Geology v. 27, n. 1-4, pp. 413-431.

Mann, J.A. 1954. Geology of Part of the Gravelly Range, Montana. Yellowstone Bighorn Research Project Contribution v. 190, Red Lodge, The Yellowstone Bighorn Research Association, 92 pp.

Oard, M.J. 1997. Ancient Ice Ages or Gigantic Submarine Landsides? Creation Research Society, Monograph No. 5, Chino Valley, AZ.

Oard, M.J. 2008b. “The Eocene Ice Age - Example of a Geological Challenge,” Creation Matters, v. 13, n. 6, Nov.-Dec., pp. 1, 6-8. http://www.creationresearch.org/creation_matters/pdf/2008/CM13%2006%20low%20res.pdf

Oard, M.J. 2009a. “Landslides Win in a Landslide over Ancient 'Ice Ages'“, chapter 7 in M.J. Oard and J.K. Reed (editors). 2009. Rock Solid Answers: The Biblical Truth Behind 14 Geological Questions, Master Books: Green Forest, AR, pp. 111-123.

Oard, M.J. 2009b. “Do Varves Contradict Biblical History?”, chapter 8 in M.J. Oard and J.K. Reed (editors). 2009. Rock Solid Answers: The Biblical Truth Behind 14 Geological Questions, Master Books: Green Forest, AR, pp. 125-148.

Oard, M.J. 2019, "Glacial-like Striations Formed in Less than 90 Seconds", Journal of Creation, v. 33, n. 3, pp. 7-8, https://creation.com/glacial-like-striations-formed-quickly

Oard, M.J. 2020a, "Do Five Dropstones Define Another Proterozoic Cold Period?", Journal of Creation, v. 34, n. 3, pp. 10-12.

Oard, M.J. 2020b. "Uniformitarian Scientists Claim 'Snowball Earth' Caused the Great Unconformity", Journal of Creation, v. 34, n. 3, pp. 12-14.

Priore, W.J. 1984. Microtextural Investigation of the Black Butte Diamicton, Gravelly Range, Madison County, Montana. M.S. Thesis, Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio, USA, 120pp.

Schermerhorn, L.J.G., 1971, "Upper Ordovician Glaciation in Northwest Africa? Discussion," Geological Society of America Bulletin, v. 82, p. 265-268.

Schermerhorn, L.J.G., 1974, "Late Precambrian Mixtites: Glacial and/or Nonglacial? American Journal of Science, v. 274, p. 673–824.

Young, G.M., G.E. Williams and L.J..G. Schermerhorn, 1976, "Reply - Late Precambrian Mixtites: Glacial and/or Nonglacial? American Journal of Science, v. 276, p. 375-384.

Scott, H.W. 1938. “Eocene Glaciation in Southwestern Montana.” Journal of Geology, v. 46, pp. 628-636.

Wegener, A. 1929. Die Entstehung der Kontinente und Ozeane (The Origin of Continents and Oceans), English translation by J. Biram, 1996, revised 4^th edition, Braunschweig, Germany, Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn: New York, Dover Publications, Inc., 246pp.