Henke 2022x

Mr. Lundahl Contradicts Himself About Miracles Not Violating Natural Law

Kevin R. Henke

September 15, 2022

After Lundahl (2022a) repeatedly stated that God does not violate any of the laws of chemistry and physics when he does a miracle, Lundahl (2022a) then contradicts himself in one of most incoherent, irrational and rambling paragraphs that I’ve ever seen:

“God and angelic beings can do things with bodies that physics doesn't provide their ability for. Like the example of God turning the N/m away from downward vectoriality and like demons keeping the body of David Copperfield above the water, like an adult holding a doll, just the "adult" isn't using hands but will and has no body and isn't visible. Btw, both good angels and demons can readily consider us "immature" - they were created over 7200 years ago and made their mature decision for eternity right after creation, we were each created less than 130 years ago (I presume) and as long as we live, we have time to change, and some do so in the last moment, for better or for worse.” [my emphasis]

If “God and angelic beings can do things with bodies” that physics cannot explain; that is, “physics doesn’t provide their ability for”, how are God and angelic beings not violating the laws of physics? At least in this Universe, anything or anyone that can do things with bodies must comply with the laws of physics. The laws of physics are not optional. Granted, our current understanding of the laws of nature is incomplete and physicists need to develop more equations and theories to better understand our Universe. However, if God and other supernatural beings do not violate the laws of physics, then we should be able to utilize equations and theories to exactly explain whatever they physically do in our Universe. Lundahl (2022i) can try to play whatever word games he wants. Any of his baseless speculations about “additions” to physics in Lundahl (2022a) would either be just another form of physics that could be measured, theorized and predicted, or it's a miracle and not physics at all, but a violation of physics. The fact is, if God exists and is omnipotent, then Mr. Lundahl is not going to be able to put him in a box and say what he will or won’t do with respect to natural law. Restraining God to the demands of current or future physics equations and theories does not make him omnipotent.

In response to the above bolded statement from Lundahl (2022a), I further stated in Henke (2022b):

“How is this not an admission by Lundahl (2022a) that God and angels use magic and aren’t restricted to the laws of physics? If physics cannot explain how God and angels can do things with physical objects, then those actions are outside of and inconsistent with the laws of physics. This is not “adding” to the laws of physics as Lundahl (2022a) claims, but nullifying the ability of the laws of physics to explain the actions of these supernatural beings.”

In his response, Lundahl (2022i), as usual, breaks up this paragraph from Henke (2022b) into its individual sentences and then makes flippant and vague proclamations on each sentence:

Kevin R. Henke

How is this not an admission by Lundahl (2022a) that God and angels use magic and aren’t restricted to the laws of physics?

Hans Georg Lundahl

The thing is, not being restricted by physics and breaking actual laws of it are not the same concept.

Kevin R. Henke

If physics cannot explain how God and angels can do things with physical objects, then those actions are outside of and inconsistent with the laws of physics.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Outside, yes, inconsistent with, no.

Because compliance with the laws of physics is not optional on Earth and in the rest of this physical Universe, how is something “…not being restricted by physics” not the same concept as breaking the laws of physics? If something is not “restricted” by or doesn’t follow the required laws of physics, then the laws of physics are indeed broken or violated in that case. However, if God or some other supernatural being uses invisible forces to turn “N/m away from downward vectoriality” Lundahl (2022a), this might comply with the laws of physics and not be “outside” of them. Either a process complies with the laws of physics of our Universe or it does not.

Again, in nature, every material object must comply with the laws of physics. There are no exceptions. We mortals cannot abolish the law of gravitation. To fly, we have to use physics to counteract the effects of gravity. Now, Christians commonly tell us that God, who supposedly created gravity, can do anything. This means that God can break, violate, abolish, exempt, restrict, or nullify Newton’ Universal Law of Gravitation at any given situation in any natural location. Use whatever term you want in this case. The result is the same, this law of physics would be gone or invalidated in that situation and would not apply until God restores it (also see Henke 2022ai).

Next, Lundahl (2022i) claims:

“Kevin R. Henke

This is not “adding” to the laws of physics as Lundahl (2022a) claims, but nullifying the ability of the laws of physics to explain the actions of these supernatural beings.

Hans Georg Lundahl

I wasn't claiming the laws of physics could explain the actions of God or could explain the actions of angels. I was claiming the actions of God or of angels were not annulling the laws of physics, that is, I was claiming the laws of physics were not the sole determinant on the event (as with many other events, including freewilled actions by men). Also, the laws of physics are not agents, they are systematic descriptions of agents of a certain type.” [my emphasis]

As long as Jesus’ ministry was on Earth and whenever God or angels act on Earth or anywhere in our physical Universe, they must either comply with the law of gravitation or violate it. That’s how Newton’s Universal Law of Gravitation works – it’s universal. Again, if God or angels are not breaking the laws of physics, as Mr. Lundahl demands, then we should be able to eventually find physics equations to explain all of their actions, such as F = ma.

Also, if Lundahl (2022i) “wasn't claiming the laws of physics could explain the actions of God”, then why does Lundahl (2022a) go to all the effort to explain how God could turn “… the N/m away from downward vectoriality” to explain levitation? Here, Lundahl (2022a) is using physics to explain God’s actions. Again, the relevant statement from Lundahl (2022a) is here and bolded:

“God and angelic beings can do things with bodies that physics doesn't provide their ability for. Like the example of God turning the N/m away from downward vectoriality and like demons keeping the body of David Copperfield above the water, like an adult holding a doll, just the "adult" isn't using hands but will and has no body and isn't visible. [my emphasis]

If God turns away the force of gravity in this manner that certainly sounds like he’s using physical forces to counteract gravity. That is, he’s using physics to counteract gravity. If that’s not want Mr. Lundahl meant, then he needs to better explain his position. Mr. Lundahl can’t have it both ways. If Mr. Lundahl doesn’t want God to violate the laws of nature in our Universe when he performs a miracle, then hypothetically we should be able to use physics with its forces and vectors to explain all of God’s actions on physical bodies. Either the actions of God can be explained by physics or they cannot. There’s no basis for “adding” anything to physics. If God’s actions in our Universe are not restricted to the laws of nature of our Universe, then God is not obeying the laws and God must be breaking them.

Continuing with the statement from Lundahl (2022i):

“Kevin R. Henke

This is not “adding” to the laws of physics as Lundahl (2022a) claims, but nullifying the ability of the laws of physics to explain the actions of these supernatural beings.

Hans Georg Lundahl

I wasn't claiming the laws of physics could explain the actions of God or could explain the actions of angels. I was claiming the actions of God or of angels were not annulling the laws of physics, that is, I was claiming the laws of physics were not the sole determinant on the event (as with many other events, including freewilled [sic spelling] actions by men). Also, the laws of physics are not agents, they are systematic descriptions of agents of a certain type.” [my emphasis]

Actually, the laws of physics are the sole determinant on what we can physically do in this Universe. Even our brains are controlled by the laws of physics and chemistry. Also, neurologist and atheist Harris (2010, pp. 102-112) claims that free will does not exist. For now, let’s assume that he is wrong. Even if I have free will and I can imagine a lot of decisions that I want to make that does not mean that natural law will allow me to do those things. Unless I can break them by doing miracles, the laws of nature place restrictions on everything I do.

Certainly, the laws of physics are human descriptions of what we observe and test about the physical properties of nature. As I said before, our understanding of physics is certainly incomplete and physicists work to revise equations and better understand the laws of physics. However, when physicists revise their views of the laws of nature, such as what Einstein did with Newton’s laws, the new physics is still very predictable and consistent as explained by E = mc² and other equations that were discovered in the 20^th century (Henke 2022an). Miracles are not expected to be predictable and consistent. Miracles shouldn’t comply with equations because they violate at least one of the laws of nature. The laws of physics are very real and physicists work to better understand them. The proclamations on how God supposedly does miracles in Lundahl (2022a) and Lundahl (2022i) are fantasies without any supporting evidence.

In another essay, Lundahl (2022j) makes additional rambling comments on this topic:

“Well, to be blunt, by adding, I mean precisely that physics doesn't account for the action as such. But I also mean, this doesn't nullify all physical laws around it, everything apart from such actions, even in the miracle, follow physical laws. It was outside the normal laws of astronomic movement (whether you consider them as physical necessity or as conventions God impose on own daily action and on periodic actions of sun and moon angels) when Joshua stopped Sun and Moon in their courses. However, it was according to normal laws of optics that they could be observed as standing still for "the time of a whole day" (12 or 24 more hours before they set).” [my emphasis]

Again, granted, our understanding of the laws of physics is incomplete. However, when Lundahl (2022a) states that “… a miracle is not a break away from natural physics, chemistry, or biology, but an addition to them”, he’s actually saying that physicists should be able to eventually discover how miracles occur and develop additional equations to describe them. That is, when Lundahl (2022a) says that God is just “adding” to physics, then those “additions” are still physics and physics is predictable. If that is not what Mr. Lundahl means, then he needs to make his writing clearer. So, does Mr. Lundahl really believe that physicists could eventually develop equations to explain any miracle done by his God and put his God in a well-defined and predictable box along with the orbits of the planets? By how others and I would define a miracle, the answer to that question is no. Unlike human beings, if an omnipotent God exists, by definition, his actions are not going to be limited to the repeatable requirements of any equations that physicists might ever discover. Also, I’m not saying that a miracle would violate all the laws of physics, but it would violate at least one. Just one violation of natural law is needed to produce a miracle as I define it. Now, I’m not even going to try to interpret what Lundahl (2022j) means about the possibility of Sun and Moon angels, or whether or not he thinks that this unsubstantiated story in Joshua 10:1-15 gives any support for geocentricism or heliocentrism (also see Henke 2022aL).

References

Harris, S. 2010. The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Hunan Values: Free Press: New York, N.Y., USA, 291pp.