Henke 2022an

Nuclear Explosions Don’t Violate Natural Law, but Again Ex Nihilo Creation of Bread in this Universe Does

Kevin R. Henke

September 15, 2022

In Henke (2022b), I discuss the miracle stories in the Bible, where Jesus supposedly multiplied fish and bread to feed thousands of people, not just once, but supposedly twice (Mark 6:30-44 and 8:1-10). This is the relevant section:

“Although there’s no reason to believe that any of the miracle stories in the gospels or the book of Acts actually happened, there are a number of stories in the gospels that better illustrate how Jesus’ supposed miracles would have violated the laws of chemistry, physics and biology than Jesus walking on water or C.S. Lewis’ pool game (Lewis 1960, chapter 8). Mark 6:30-44 and Mark 8:1-10 claim that Jesus was miraculously able to feed thousands of people from a small number of fish and loaves of bread. Although the stories don’t try to explain how these “miracles” happened, the reader is probably expected to assume that Jesus was able to magically multiply the available fish and bread through ex nihilo (something out of nothing) miracles. These miracles would have clearly violated the laws of chemistry, biology and physics. So, where did the extra fish and bread come from if these stories did not involve violating the laws of chemistry, biology, and physics with ex nihilo magic? Did invisible angels catch some more fish and bake extra bread? Well, the verses clearly indicate that there was no time for that. The people were hungry and they ate right away. Did the angels use miracles to catch the fish and speed up the baking of the bread? There’s no indication in the stories that that happened either. Besides, speeding up the chemical reactions in the baking of the bread would require violating the laws of chemistry and physics. Bread can only bake so quickly under the laws of chemistry and physics without incomplete baking or burning it to carbon. The stories also do not indicate that Jesus called down extra bread or fish from Heaven like manna. No, the story indicates that Jesus blessed and distributed the fish and bread that were already there and that the available fish and bread miraculously multiplied in violation of natural law to feed thousands. Clearly, the stories in Mark 6 and 8 are expected to be magical and that natural law even as the ancient Israelites understood it didn’t apply in these “fishy” stories.” [my emphasis]

Continuing from Henke (2022am), Lundahl (2022i) then comments on the bolded section in this paragraph:

Kevin R. Henke

No, the story indicates that Jesus blessed and distributed the fish and bread that were already there and that the available fish and bread miraculously multiplied in violation of natural law to feed thousands.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Break a piece of bread in two. Watch each half refill the lacking parts, as God's omnipotence makes a creation out of nothing. You have not watched the laws involving bakery to be broken, you have watched an agent other than a baker produce more bread by creation out of nothing. Which therefore is clearly not contradicting the laws of bakery.

Perhaps Mr. Henke is referring to "law of conservation of mass" and "law of conservation of energy" - but each of them was at least apparently broken by nuclear power and by Hiroshima. You can obviously fix this by imagining "mass and energy are the same" or "mass is a species of energy" - but that is very clearly going beyond observational proof.

Believing the Gospels got the credibility among Christians that normal processes of observation and of narrating the observed would warrant is in this sense NOT going beyond observational proof.

I am not sure of having to the general reader explained things better here than I did in the original statement, the one given in my third part of the response to Henke, namely:

Creation vs. Evolution : Several Types of "Supernatural" Featured in Stories Believed to be True “ https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2022/03/several-types-of-supernatural-featured.html [This is Lundahl 2022a]

Here, I have only traced the attempts of Mr. Henke to refute that one, and his inability to with logical coherence actually doing so.”

Contrary to Lundahl (2022i), there are no such things as the “laws of bakery.” However, there is a law of conservation of matter-energy, which not only applies to bakers and baking, but also to everything and everyone in our Universe that interacts with matter and energy. As I previously explained in Henke (2022am), if God enters our Universe, he’s probably going to interact with matter and energy. Yet, when the Law of Conservation of Matter-Energy says that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, no exceptions are given. If you’re in this Universe, you have to comply with this law. However, God, if he exists, does not have to comply with one of the laws that he created. He can create bread out of nothing and so what if the Law of Conservation of Matter-Energy says that no one can do that. He’s God. He doesn’t have to obey the law and he can violate the law by making bread out of nothing anytime and anywhere in our Universe whenever he wants. Mr. Lundahl in Lundahl (2022i) is again confused and doesn’t understand any of this. In Lundahl 2022a, Lundahl (2022i) and his other essays, Mr. Lundahl is just looking for excuses in a desperate attempt to justify the unwarranted philosophical arguments in Lewis (1960, pp. 90-98, etc.) about God “adding” to the laws of nature and not violating them. Mr. Lundahl can engage in any word-play that he wants by claiming that God “adds” to the laws of nature. Whether in English, Latin or whatever, no matter what word Mr. Lundahl uses, creation ex nihilo violates the Law of Conservation of Matter-Energy. But, so what? God, if he exists, can do that.

Contrary to what Lundahl (2022i) says, nuclear physicists have made observations that demonstrate that nuclear explosions and other nuclear reactions fully comply with E=mc² and other natural laws (for examples, see Orear 1966, pp. 281-284, 407-409; also see the calculations in Difilippo 2017). That is, no natural laws are violated in nuclear physics. In contrast, there’s no rational reason to take any stories in the Bible at face value. There’s no evidence that Moses or the Talking Snake ever existed or that anyone mentioned in Genesis and Exodus ever existed to observe any of the claims in those Bible books. Again, see Dever (2005), Finkelstein and Silberman (2001) and other archeological sources to find out what the ancient Israelites were really like. Ehrman (2003), Ehrman (2012), Ehrman (2013), Loftus (2010) and Loftus (2011) also provide realistic discussions on the history of Christianity.

Mr. Lundahl has also not demonstrated that anything in the Gospels ever happened. People make up stories all the time and write them down, and too often people just believe whatever they’re told by religious or government authorities. Now, there are dozens of known Gospels. Many are lost and are only known by their titles or quotations. Nevertheless, we do have some complete or nearly complete Gospels besides the four in the Bible. Why should Mr. Lundahl believe that Jesus said anything in the Gospel of Matthew any more than he did the Gospel of Thomas? Why should he believe the Gospel of Mark any more than the Gospel According to the Hebrews? How does Mr. Lundahl know that the early Catholic Church understood Jesus and the Gospel better than the Gnostics or the Marcionites?

As I demonstrated in Henke (2022b), Mr. Lundahl did not explain anything well in Lundahl (2022a). Lundahl (2022a) failed to demonstrate the existence of the supernatural. Lundahl (2022a) is poorly written, full of misspellings, inappropriately referenced, and contains numerous logical fallacies.

References

Dever, W.G. 2005. Did God Have a Wife?: Archeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI, USA, 344pp.

Difilippo, F.C. 2017 “A Model for the Evaluation of the Yield of the Hiroshima Nuclear Explosion”; Oak Ridge National Laboratory, 30pp.

Ehrman, B.D. 2003. Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew: Oxford University Press: Oxford, UK, 294pp.

Ehrman, B.D. 2012. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings: Oxford University Press, New York, NY, USA, 536pp.

Ehrman, B.D. 2013. Forgery and Counterforgery: The Use of Literary Deceit in Early Christian Polemics: Oxford University Press: Oxford, UK, 628pp.

Finkelstein, I. and N.A. Silberman. 2001. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts: The Free Press: New York, USA, 385pp.

Lewis, C.S. 1960. Miracles, 2^nd ed., printed 1974: Harper One: HarperCollinsPublishers, 294pp.

Loftus, J.W. (ed.) 2010. The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails: Prometheus Books: Amherst, NY, USA, 422 pp.

Loftus, J.W. (ed.) 2011. The End of Christianity: Prometheus Books: Amherst, NY, USA, 435 pp.

Orear, J. 1967. Fundamental Physics, 2^nd ed., John Wiley & Sons: New York, 472pp.