Henke 2022eo

More Stories about Saints and More Bad Methodology on History from Lundahl (2022n)

Kevin R. Henke

September 15, 2022

In Henke (2022a), I list four hypotheses to explain the Talking Snake story of Genesis 3. Hypothesis #3 compares the Talking Snake story to an ancient work of fiction or a “campfire story” that was mistakenly taken by the ancient Israelites as being real. I also linked to a webarticle by Jimenez (2014), which argues that some Roman Catholic saints are likely examples of works of fiction that were eventually taken as being true. Here is the relevant section from Hypothesis #3 from Henke (2022a):

3. The Talking Snake of Genesis 3 was part of a made-up campfire story, a parable or based on a pagan myth that eventually was taken as fact by the ancient Israelites, like how President Reagan and his fans mistook fictional stories from World War 2 as real. William Tell (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/in-search-of-william-tell-2198511/ ) and a number of Roman Catholic saints (https://listverse.com/2014/05/17/10-beloved-saints-with-fictitious-biographies/ ) are probably also myths.

Lundahl (2022c) then responded to this section from Henke (2022a):

“Modern scholars dispute the historicity of William Tell and Protestant scholars dispute that of lots of Catholic saints (and the modern scholars you provide are culturally Protestant. I may take up separate posts when trying to deal with these links, but Smithsonian Mag is not my best academic resource for European History of the Middle Ages and Listverse is trusted when providing lists, but not quite as trusted with backing up each detail on each list with good scholarship.”

This statement is from an individual that relies on Wikipedia (e.g., Lundahl 2022d; Lundahl 2022o), deliberately avoids using the actual peer-reviewed references that I give him, and shuns providing bibliographies (e.g., Henke 2022at; Henke 2022e). Mr. Lundahl knows nothing about good scholarship.

In Henke (2022b), I replied to Lundahl (2022c):

“In my discussions of Hypothesis #3 in Henke (2022a), I mentioned that stories about William Tell and some Roman Catholic Saints are additional examples of works of fiction that are now widely misinterpreted as historical fact. I linked to the following webarticles:

In Search of William Tell (Robert Wernick, Smithsonian Magazine)

Listverse: 10 Beloved Saints the Church Just Made Up by Larry Jimenez and fact checked by Jamie Frater.

Lundahl (2022c) complains about the reliability of my references (Smithsonian Magazine and Listverse). He also states that he may give a separate response on these topics later.

Granted, my preliminary links on William Tell and some of the Roman Catholic saints were not articles from peer-reviewed journals. They simply provided some background information on how these individuals were probably not historical. Nevertheless, Mr. Lundahl could consult Jean-François Bergier’s Guillaume Tell (1988), which is mentioned in the Smithsonian Magazine article, if he did not like the summary in the article. The Listverse article on the Catholic saints also contains links with additional information and documentation. Nevertheless, here’s a journal article that discusses more about the origin of William Tell:

Hughes, S.C. 2012. “The Limits of Cultural Nationalism: Italian Switzerland from a Risorgimento Perspective”, Nations and Nationalism, v. 18, n. 1, pp. 57-77.”

I further discuss the William Tell story in Henke (2022ek). In this essay, I reply to comments in Lundahl (2022n) about more of the ten Roman Catholic saints discussed in Jimenez (2014) and how they might not have ever existed. Of course, Mr. Lundahl, being a conservative Roman Catholic, does not like any Bible stories and probably not any Roman Catholic saints being identified as likely myths. Lundahl (2022n) then attempts to defend the authenticity of the stories about the ten questionable saints identified in Jimenez (2014).

Lundahl (2022n) makes some broad comments about three saints on the list in Jimenez (2014); namely, St. Margaret of Antioch (#7), St. Barbara (#5) and St. Alexius of Rome (#4):

“7) St. Margaret Of Antioch ...

5) St. Barbara ...

4) St. Alexius Of Rome ...

All seem obsessed with, a) is not recorded in "history" as if "history" were one book or book collection like the Bible, b) earliest now extant version is from some centuries later (like 700 or later).

That is not an argument. Recorded "in history" means recorded in texts of the past. The question is, which texts of the past are considered historic, and here the argument is, a text from 400 years later than the events is not historic, even if it is not contradicting any contemporaneous text. I disagree with that methodology.”

Notice that Lundahl (2022n) never comments on the following outlandish claims about St. Margaret of Antioch as mentioned by Jimenez (2014):

“In one version of the legend, a dragon threatens her in prison, but she makes the creature vanish with the sign of the cross. In another version, Margaret is swallowed by the dragon, but the cross she was carrying irritates the dragon’s innards, and the monster expels her, unharmed.”

This story sounds a lot like the unreliable Jonah story. Nevertheless, does Mr. Lundahl really think that these far-fetched stories about dragons and St. Margaret of Antioch actually happened? Where is there any evidence to believe that these stories actually occurred? If these stories are fiction, what else about St. Margaret of Antioch’s life is likely fiction? Could her very existence be a work of fiction? Now, it might be possible that some of the saints mentioned by Jimenez (2014) were real persons, but their existence needs to be verified and, certainly, the stories about dragons and other far-fetched claims need to be questioned.

Once again, Mr. Lundahl’s approach to history in Lundahl (2022n) is fatally flawed. Instead of first being appropriately skeptical of a claim and then looking for contemporary evidence to eliminate the skepticism, Mr. Lundahl wants to believe that these saints and their actions were real unless, perhaps, if the stories become so outrageously ridiculous that he simply can’t accept them. Yet, as indicated by Mr. Lundahl’s reactions to the 10 saints in Jimenez (2014), nothing appears too outrageous for him to believe. Again, I would like to know if there are any stories about Roman Catholic saints that are so absurd that Mr. Lundahl won’t accept them. Lundahl (2022n) also fails to realize that the Bible is not a suitable example of history (Loftus 2010; Loftus 2011; Finkelstein and Silberman 2001; Dever 2005) and that history is not just whatever old manuscripts say about past events. As I explain in Henke (2022a), Henke (2022b), Henke (2022dv) and my other essays in this debate, a high standard must be set for the reliability of a past event before it should be classified as history. History must be verified and separated from the popular myths that are too often misidentified as “history.”

Lundahl (2022n) also fails to realize that 400 years is more than enough time for fictional characters to be invented, become widely popular and mistaken as history. As seen with William Tell, fictional characters can become viewed as history in less than 250 years (Henke (2022ek); Warnick 2004). False miracle stories about individuals that actually lived, such as Sabbatai Sevi (Price 2003, pp. 29, 133 and the footnotes) and William Branham, can easily arise while they’re still alive. Certainly, even supposedly consistent texts written 400 years after the supposed events are not to be trusted unless they are supported by archeology or other independent and external evidence.

References:

Dever, W.G. 2005. Did God Have a Wife?: Archeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI, USA, 344pp.

Finkelstein, I. and N.A. Silberman. 2001. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts: The Free Press: New York, USA, 385pp.

Jimenez, L. 2014. “10 Beloved Saints The Church Just Made Up”, Listverse, https://listverse.com/2014/05/17/10-beloved-saints-with-fictitious-biographies/ (accessed July 25, 2022).

Loftus, J.W. (ed.) 2010. The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails: Prometheus Books: Amherst, NY, USA, 422 pp.

Loftus, J.W. (ed.) 2011. The End of Christianity: Prometheus Books: Amherst, NY, USA, 435 pp.

Price, R.M. 2003. The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable is the Gospel Tradition?, Prometheus Books: Amherst, NY, USA, 389pp.

Warnick, R. 2004. “In Search of William Tell”, Smithsonian Magazine: August, https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/in-search-of-william-tell-2198511/ (accessed July 24, 2022).