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Third exchange of three between Groothuis and Hexham
Subject: AR-talk "Hexham slams ..." A Suggestion
To: AR-talk, AR-talk@xc.org
Originally from: Irving Hehxam <hexham@acs.ucalgary.ca>
Originally dated: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:30:30 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time)
Since, AR-talk is intended to provide information rather than act as a forum for debate I suggest we continue to discuss the interesting points Professor Groothuis has raised on NUREL-L. For those members of this list who do not subscribe to NUREL-L, I amend subscription details at the end of this post.
Before, withdrawing from the discussion on AR-talk there are a couple of points worth making.
The first concerns the general background to our criticism of evangelical anti-cult apologetics. In the context of our book it was necessary to discuss the work of various evangelical authors because evangelicals have played a major role in creating public awareness and attitudes towards cults and new religions. It was, therefore, necessary to criticize evangelical writers, rather than ignore their work because evangelical criticisms of cults play a role in the formation of government policy towards religious freedom in Europe. The irony here is that North American criticisms of cults have been cited in German courts to limit religious activity. These restrictions make no distinction between groups like Satanism, Hare Krishna, the Unification Church and evangelical groups like Campus Crusade. It is also important to realise that under the guise of the "danger" of "fundamentalism" counter cult legislation is being used to hinder conservative Christians in various German State churches.
Further, as we point out in our book, pp. 15-20, German established church "cult experts" are playing an important role in encouraging the Russian Duma and other newly liberated East European countries to outlaw evangelical activity. No doubt some people may question these statements especially because the German Basic Law guarantees the freedom of religion. This is true. But, since 1989 German Constitutional and Administrative Courts have progressively reinterpreted the freedom of religion clauses in the Basic Law to allow serious interference in religious activities.
Should anyone doubt the truth of what I am claiming, and have SERIOUS questions, then they may contact the Berlin lawyer Norbert Kirsch, Antonienstr. 50a, 13403 Berlin (Reinickendorf), Germany, FAX 011-49-30--413-9610; the British CMS missionary David Goodenough, 15 College Rd. Hayword's Heath, West Sussex, RH16 1QN, FAX 011-44-1444-45176; or the American reporter Steve Selthoffer,Heer Str. 138, 53111 Bonn, Germany, Fax: 011-49-228-9829899.
But, please, if you do contact any of these people don't waste their time with frivolous questions. They are very busy individuals. Under these circumstances it we believed it was essential to discuss evangelical and other criticisms of cults and new religions because their influence goes far beyond North America and are actually being used to attack fellow evangelicals in Europe.
Second, among his many misreading of our work Professor Groothuis states: " Hexam also faults Geisler/Clark for not including Hegel as a pantheist. This is ironic, since Hegel clearly is not a pantheism but a panentheist."
It is true that Hegel denied being a pantheist and that some commentators argue that he was a panentheist. But, we never claim that Hegel is a pantheist in the first place. What we actually say is "and Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, who can plausibly be represented as pantheists."
Over the last, almost two, centuries many scholars have represented Hegel as a pantheist. For example, Theodore Christlieb, "Modern Doubt and Christian Belief," Edinburg, T. & T. Clark, 1874, p. 163; Karl Loewith, "From Hegel to Nietzsche," London, Constable, 1964, p. 117; and Paul Edwards, "The Encyclopedia of Philosophy," London, Macmillan, 1967, Vol. 6, p. 34.
Finally, if our writing appears arrogant, as Professor Groothuis suggests in a later post, I apologise. This is not because we "thinks that only professors of Religious Studies (like himself) are qualified to say anything of
significance on New Religious Movements."
Rather, its a matter of ethnicity. What can does one expect from an Englishman and a Prussian!!!
For people who would like to continue the discussion on NUREL-L please send the following message:
SUBSCRIBE NUREL-L <YOUR NAME>to listserv@listserv.ucalgary.ca
Thanks,
Irving
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Irving Hehxam
hexham@acs.ucalgary.ca
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Subject: Re: AR-talk Hexam/Poewe book slams evangelicals
To: AR-talk, AR-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <DGrooth133@aol.com>
Originally dated: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:42:28 -0400 (EDT)
I'm not interested in continuing the debate with Prof. Hexam on this list orany other one.
Doug Groothuis
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Subject: Re: AR-talk Hexam/Poewe book slams evangelicals
To: AR-talk, AR-talk@xc.org
Originally from: Irving Hehxam <hexham@acs.ucalgary.ca>
Originally dated: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:21:13 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time)
Professor Groothuis has decided:
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:42:28 -0400 (EDT)
"DGrooth133@aol.com" <AR-talk@xc.org> wrote:
> I'm not interested in continuing the debate with Prof.
> Hexam on this list or any other one.
>
> Doug Groothuis
I'm very sorry about this because he is raising some very important issues which ought to be discussed. Therefore, I have asked him to reconsider his decision.
Whatever he decides I suggest to anyone interested in topics such as "monism," whether Hegel was a pantheist, to what extent Indian writers like Sankara can be considered pantheists, etc., and even the wisdom of Christians criticizing other Christians, that we change venue to NUREL-L and begin our discussion on 25 July.
By that time I will have returned from my travels, actually research in Germany, and will be able to participate in an uninterrupted debate. The 25 July date also allows time for reflection and reading relevant books.
I hope this suggestion is acceptable to all and that it will generate a fruitful interchange.
Finally, anyone wanting to know more about what I have written on these and related topics can find my complete list of publications on my Web Site at:
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~hexham
----------------------
Irving Hehxamhexham@acs.ucalgary.ca
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